Why is a 9mm better to carry over a .45?

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:06:29 -0400

This is for all of us, but I give one stark example why we all need to heed warnings like this...because we have a duty to carry and protect our own, and how can we do that if we do not know. I personally have two 9mm and primarily because of carry capacity and cheapness and availability of ammo. State your reasons for owning a 9mm....or reasons why you do not.

Why one cop now carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job ...

Lastly, I know there are still those of you reading this and about to blow a top because you can't believe that .45 is somehow not a "man stopper" ...

I am about to prove to you scientifically that the 9mm is just as effective as the .45 with today's modern ammo, but you'll want to reply with what you know to be true, have seen, or "real world experience" ...

Before you do that, you should know about Police Sergeant Timothy Gramin ...

Sergeant Gramin used to carry 47 rounds of .45 ammunition while on duty. That was before he got in a gunfight with an attacker who would not go down. The police officer shot the man 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition - six of those hits in supposedly fatal locations.

The final three shots that the police officer fired were into the suspects head — one through each side of his mouth and one through the top of his skull into his brain.

In case you missed that, the officer shot the man 11 times with .45 and then 3 more times in the HEAD before the guy finally stopped fighting.

And lest you try to convince yourself that the attacker was drugged up, to quote the report, "Remarkably, the gunman was still showing vital signs when EMS arrived. Sheer determination, it seemed, kept him going, for no evidence of drugs or alcohol was found in his system."

The full story can be found here on PoliceOne.com. But the point is that yes, even the .45 caliber will not guarantee you a "one shot stop".

Oh, and by the way, Sergeant Gramins now carries a 9mm on the job ...

" ... Now unfailingly he goes to work carrying 145 handgun rounds, all 9 mm. These include three extra 17-round magazines for his primary sidearm (currently a Glock 17), plus two 33-round mags tucked in his vest, as well as the backup gun [Glock 26]"

If you are still convinced that your .45 is better, then there's nothing I can say now that will convince you otherwise, so let's just get to the list (which includes .45 anyways) ...

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 12:09 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:09:56 -0400

I've always had the physics approach, the greater the mass of the round, the bigger the hole...I guess I was sort of wrong.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 28 at 2015 12:22 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:22:41 -0400

Shot placement is king. More rounds means more chances to place the shot. As depicted above, with modern JHP the difference in bore yields minimal difference in damage inflicted.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Apr 28 at 2015 12:41 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 12:41:14 -0400

Wound channel and penetration is only a small part of the overall equation.
Shot placement, follow up shot placement, barrier penetration, kinetic energy transferred to the target.

I often carry a 10mm revolver... with my chosen carry ammo in that revolver my bullet is getting to the target at the rate of 1450 feet per second (FPS) with about 675 ftlb muzzle energy.
Your typical .45 cal JHP 185 grain defense round is getting there at about 850 FPS, with 369 ftlb muzzle energy.
Your typical 9mm JHP 115 grain defense round is getting there at about 1155 FPS, with 341 ftlb muzzle energy

So yes wound channel and penetration is close on all.. now pick the one you can hit with, that you can carry enough to hit the target several times .. through or around barriers and accounting for misses.
Pick the one that gets there faster than the targets bullet gets to you, pick one that hits harder.

Then shoot often , carry always, and hope you never have to use it, all while being ready to use it.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Apr 28 at 2015 1:03 PM

SGT Richard H. — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:03:39 -0400

My reasons for carrying a 9MM: Because I am an accurate enough shooter that I don't have to worry about whether a shot in the arm will take you down, so I don't need the 17 rounds to take down a threat....so 17 rounds allows me to be defended from 17 threats.

Response by SSG Jerry Chlarson made Apr 28 at 2015 1:13 PM

SSG Jerry Chlarson — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:13:23 -0400

I think first and foremost is the ability to control the weapon. If you can't re-engage quickly after the first shot and everyone after that, it doesn't matter the caliber of the weapon. Pick a caliber you can control on a platform that fits you (Ruger, Glock, S&W, etc) and practice, practice, practice. If you can't put lead "on target" it doesn't really matter what you are carrying.

Response by CPT Carl Kisely made Apr 28 at 2015 1:38 PM

CPT Carl Kisely — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 13:38:31 -0400

Unfortunately for me, as a .45 owner, the information on 9mm has increasingly disproven the previous assumptions on the superiority on .45. Thank you for your article. I won't be getting rid of my .45 anytime soon, because I love the way it shoots, and it still launches bullets, but it is clear that it is not an advantaged round. Thanks for the post!

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Apr 28 at 2015 3:12 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:12:12 -0400

The most important question is, "Which caliber am I most likely to hit the target with?" Followed closely by "Which caliber am I most likely to hit the target center mass/kill zone?" The only other question is a matter of rounds you need to answer the question above?

For those who love their .45 or .40s, there really isn't anything you can say or need to say, if that is 'their' weapon, be safe and I hope you never need to use your weapon, but if you do...I hope you are the one telling the story when it is all said and done

Response by SFC David Zamora made Apr 28 at 2015 3:16 PM

SFC David Zamora — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 15:16:14 -0400

Haha! I'm just messin y'all. To each his own. Personally, I carry the .45 because they don't make a .46...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 6:28 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:28:11 -0400

I carry my Mosin-Nagant, that will put a man down!! Just kidding. I go in between with my carry, a .40 cal. Why? Cause it shoots good, I am accurate with it, plus, I just like it. I use my 9mm for competition shooting as it is easier to control the recoil when shooting at multiple targets. I also own .45s as they are just to damn cool.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2015 10:45 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 22:45:24 -0400

I own several caliber pistols. I have a 1911 style .45, a .357 mag revolver and a polymer 9mm semi auto to name my favorites. I can fire all of these pistols accurately to their max ranges and I do so regularly. I personally carry a 1911 commanders model .45 because that is what is most comfortable to me. I have carried my 9mm in the past but I am much more comfortable with my 1911. I don't carry the revolver because of lack of ammo in one load (5 vs 8 or 16). The article above (in full) displays first and foremost placement of the shot is more crucial than size of caliber fired. Shot placement and the ability to follow up until the threat is neutralized is the name of the game, no matter if it's a .17HMR or a 155mm howitzer accuracy is important.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Apr 29 at 2015 11:37 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:37:37 -0400

We all tend to be biased towards what we grew up with. I couldn't believe how loose and sloppy the old issue 1911s were. We were taught never to use them beyond 20 yards or so because you were likely to miss in the pumped up action of battle. Remember this isn't a range thing. Then I couldn't believe how accurate a 1911 could be when I started shooting service match with a 1911 that to this day remains better than I am.

For military use, FMJs are in keeping with treaty, hence the photograph of JHPs isn't relevant. My sense is you'll be best at what you're most comfortable with. It will be interesting to see what FMJ cartridge configuration comes out of the ongoing evaluation.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Feb 17 at 2016 6:38 AM

PO3 David Fries — Wed, 17 Feb 2016 06:38:28 -0500

I carried and qualified with the M9 while I was in. I just took the the NRA course to be allowed to carry in the state of CT, and did just as well with the .40 and the .45 as I did with the 9mm. I haven't decided what I am going to carry yet.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2018 1:02 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:02:23 -0500

Forgot an important part of that ballistics gel test, I found the complete one - 10mm winner!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2018 11:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Nov 2018 23:30:05 -0500

Each shooting situation has it's own conclusions, and each has it's outcome. As a police officer, I've seen someone killed with just one shot from a 22LR, 9mm, 45APC, 12 gauge, speargun. Multi shots with a 45APC, 9mm, 12 gauge, 30 carbine, and 30/30.
I know of an officer that carried 196 rounds of 9mm, 120 rounds of 223 for his AR-15, 50 rounds of 12 gauge for his shotgun, 4 handcuffs, and 3 Alu flashlights everytime on duty. I nick name him, "The walking SWAT team". Lol
When it came down to it with a barricaded individual armed with a Shindawa bushwhacker, and no firearm. Mr. walking SWAT team, said he would take care of it, and got hit in the mouth with the bushwhacker, knocked out, and lost some front teeth. All it took was for me to draw my 357, point it at the individual, and he put his deadly Shindawa bushwhacker down and gave up.
So, with all that holy baloney just said, it's a true story, and it brings us back to the situation, depending on the circumstances, it creates the out come.
Also, as a bonus , a good Vietnam veteran friend of mine in a fire fight was shot 14 times with a AK-47. The doctor's said he was going to die, but didn't and recovered to serve as my team leader on the DMZ Korea in 1973, and I'm proud to say his name was Sgt. Woodard, and has all the scars to prove it.
I carried all kinds of handguns, and shot placement seems to me to benefit the shooter. And, as a SWAT officer, I always depended on and carried my Sig-226 9mm, why the 9mm round, because that was the round that the department authorized to use.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong and it's not right, I'm saying, "It's your life, take care of it".

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2018 3:28 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:28:44 -0500

As a test stand fast and face a .357, 9mm, .45 all of which I own or 10 mm that I don't own. A well placed round from any of these quickly becomes a one-way conversation. Center mass in the x ring and unless the person receiving round is on PCP or worse, it's game over. Follow up with a clean head shot and it becomes biologic. Gelatin is a good indicator though.

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Nov 21 at 2018 4:44 PM

MSG Danny Mathers — Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:44:20 -0500

You can find it just about anywhere.