Why haven't the DOD revised the Enlisted/ Office pay chart yet?

SGT(P) Jeren Fullmore — Mon, 28 Oct 2013 23:04:58 -0400

I it completely makes no sense that a 2LT comes in almost making as much a 20 year SFC. Most enlisted personnel have degrees, just like the officers only difference is the rank. They should really figure out a way to make the chart fair. Cause Enlisted person works hard and sometimes hard at times than most officers. Just my personal prospective on it. No offense to any officer out there.

Response by MAJ Samuel Weber made Oct 28 at 2013 11:43 PM

MAJ Samuel Weber — Mon, 28 Oct 2013 23:43:15 -0400

There are multiple ways to look at is this, take the civilian sector for example. Who makes the most? Does a line mechanic or line supervisor make as much as the Forman or Shop Manager? Even though it seems that they do more work they really don't. The manager is responsible for he entire shop, has to make choices that can cost the business money and has to ensure that everyone that works for him is doing their job.

Now let's translate that to the Military; A 2LT arrives fresh from four years of college (ROTC/West Point) and 6 months in BOLC. As he/she arrives at the unit and are (for the most part) put in command of a Platoon. The SFC is their assistant and advisor.

As for the times that you have seen officers do less than some enlisted can you honestly say you have been there when the officers are still in BN/BDE working while the NCOs are gone? When I was a young NCO I remember thinking how little my Senior NCO and Officers did. It was only because I was not doing their job and I wanted to believe that what I did was more important than what anyone else was contributing to the unit. There is a reason officers make more, it may not always seem clear to Soldiers. When I transitioned to the officer ranks I realized that an officer's job has a different level of difficultly. I would recommend taking some time to better understand what it is your fellow Soldiers do. Somewhere there is a private saying, "What do NCOs do? I do all the work, I should be the one getting paid more!".

I think we should all stop worrying about what everyone else makes and focus on our roles and learning our profession.

Response by CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. made Oct 29 at 2013 1:44 PM

CPT Daniel Walk, M.B.A. — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:44:09 -0400

It does make sense. That 2LT will go to jail for things the SFC will never know happened. I was enlisted for 10 years before commissioning. I made a choice, for 10 years. If you have a degree and enjoy being enlisted, then you accept the "consequences" of your decision. Much more is expected of the officer corps, and the pay-scale reflects that. One of the important items is grammar.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 2:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:12:45 -0400

I agree with this 100%

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 2:18 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:18:44 -0400

The reality is that Officers are given more responsibility "overall." I agree, much of the time, the leadership and experience of the SNCO mentoring the Officer is what ultimately makes the gears mesh, but the final fault falls to the Officer if all comes crashing down. Should there be an incentive for those enlisted folks who have college degrees? Maybe, who am I to say? However, I think as a nation, we have many, many bigger fish to fry before we can afford to allow ourselves the luxury of debating the pay differential between Officers and Enlisted.

The effort expelled to promote the division between the Officers and Enlisted is what's most troublesome. This image that the Officers can't make mistakes and are "publicly" always right is what is most insulting to the Enlisted Corps. In many circles, Officers seem to want to project an image of infalability which only serves to undermine their rank and position. Admitting fault, displaying an ability to err as all humans seems to have become one of the lost arts of leadership.

In contrast, I have had the pleasure of serving with many fine officers, but, like the Enlisted Corps, it takes many years to learn that you can't know everything as a young E-? anymore than you can as a young O-?. Wisdom comes with experience, and experience comes with time and diversity. An LT or a Captain who thinks he/she knows it all is equally as dangerous as a PFC/A1C who think he/she knows it all. That's where our leadership and experience need to prevail and show them the way.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 2:43 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:43:51 -0400

I'll just say this...I would do this job for free if it meant
that my family and children could live a life of their choosing. However the
pay is almost in line with the private sector and anyway you look at it, if you
serve in the Armed Forces you are not out to become rich. Unless you have prepared
a bill free life style in which you could plug all of your money into
investments that have no risk and high yields of return. The complaint about
the unfair pay scale is only based on the experience of the individual needs.
If you have bills to pay and your debt to income is so high that you have
little to nothing to put into savings or investments then yes a pay raise would
benefit you. But why get paid more money for your choices that caused the
issues in the first place?

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 4:18 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 16:18:44 -0400

As I agree with you Os will argue it is about scope of responsibility and accountability. I think if they were going to look at the pay chart they first need to look at our rank structure. As a society as a whole we are more education. Back in the early days of the military most enlisted men didn't even need to be able to read. So our O vs E culture is a little outdated and is more a tradition than a pratically. I think you would find it very difficult but it would be nice if there was a more linear career path. IE. You make E-5 then you earn your BA. So at that point you can follow the O path or decline and stick with the E path. Pipe dream.. as I don't see this gap every changing (I know this first hand as I am a SNCO that has had a BA since I was a NCO and have never had any real tangible benefit for it).

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Oct 29 at 2013 10:57 PM

SGM Matthew Quick — Tue, 29 Oct 2013 22:57:47 -0400

SGT Fullmore, when you say "most enlisted personnel have degrees", where are you getting this information?

Also, the Army has many avenues for our enlisted force to apply for commissioning programs...if pay is your motivation, you may consider applying to a commissioning program.

Lastly, the way you write or post questions/responses, speaks volumes.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 9:38 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2013 09:38:51 -0400

It all comes down to accountability. When I was an NCO (after more than two years in the Army) I was in charge of a squad of 7 soldiers. My job was to follow the orders of the officers and Sr NCOs to ensure the accomplishment of my mission and the general welfare of my 7 soldiers. As a LT, I am in charge of a platoon of over 40 soldiers. My job goes well beyond the scope of responsibility I had as an NCO. My job now is to understand my commander's intent and give orders to the NCOs in my platoon to accomplish that intent. I'm not paid more because of my education. Both me and PLT SGT have masters degrees. Not saying the Army doesn't care about our educational accomplishments, but they don't pay us differently because of it. The construction worker building a sky scraper will always look at the engineer/architect in his/her office and say how much more difficult their job is than the person in the A/C. Don't let the A/C and squishy chair fool you. It's harder than it looks.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 10:13 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2013 10:13:46 -0400

I don't think the pay table should be "fair". Personally I believe that the pay tables for the military are severly outdated. A persons pay should be representitive of their work performance and the responsibilities of their grade. Pre 9/11, from what I understand, an NCO's scope of responsibilities were somewhat limited. Relegated to maintaining disclipline and conducting training, while officers ensure unit rediness and planned the training. I do feel that these roles have changed with the dynamics of this new type of conflict. NCO's today however, have vastly different responsibilities than then I first began my service. They are expected to be dynamic, critical thinking and problem solving NCO's compared to a decade ago when they got their orders from officers and they simply followed them to a tee. NCO's are now expected to plan training sessions, ensure proper equiment is available and the unit is ready for the ever changing global battlefield.

Though I do agree that Officers are ultimately responsible for everything that was said in previous comments. I still find it hard to believe that as an E-5 with 9 years of service and brand new LT make over $400 more than I do every month. With what is expected of our NCO's today I do feel that the pay sales need to be reevaluated to reflect the increaded workload and capabilities of the Enlisted side of the Army not becuase they should be made "fair".

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 10:26 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2013 10:26:27 -0400

We shouldn't make it fair, we should maintain a system that recruits and retains the best qualified individuals for the respective positions. A SFC has bought into the system at that point in their career. Even a 7-in-7 SFC has limited options outside of the military (some specialties) aside and is committed to a continued career path. A junior officer can choose the military as a career path and, depending on their specialty, a lot of them jump ship at-or-before they make CPT for a better paying civilian career.

You have to look at the initial prerequisites: A SFC starts as a PVT and only requires a HS diploma. It is through merit and self-development that they attain that higher pay grade while they lock themselves into a military career path due to specialization and removal from a non-government work environment.
The 2LT starts with a four year degree and is infinitely more marketable than a HS graduate. They're paid more because we'd only retain the bottom of the barrel who can't cut it in the civilian sector if we didn't throw money at good and bad alike.

Response by MAJ Derrick J. made Oct 31 at 2013 9:14 PM

MAJ Derrick J. — Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:14:01 -0400

Sgt, how do you make it fair? Is fair the objective here? Who told you this is the objective of pay?

Just to fill in info, I came in from the enlisted side - I see no issues with pay the way it is. Honestly, this smells of bellyaching and complaining rather than suggesting a topic for serious discussion.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2013 9:19 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Oct 2013 21:19:12 -0400

Fair? Since when has fair been an Army reg? I was raking leaves all day while the E5 and ups were inside sitting at a desk! I didn't go in there complain about fair. A wise Drill Sergeant told me one time, "Don't get mad, get promoted"

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 2:51 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Nov 2013 02:51:27 -0400

Think not of it as a matter of fairness, instead think of it as an opportunity to propel yourself forward. If you don't like the current pay rate, you do have options. You could seperate in an effort to earn more money, or you could fight to change your status. Becoming commissioned is no easy task, and by virtue of that alone, it is its own reward.

Even if you are not elegible for OBC/Green to Gold/OCS etc, you could still persue the Warrant option. And if you are to late for that, you should have planned your career more effectively. I know that some prefer to stay enlisted, and if that is their personal choice, they have no right to complain about the pay discrepancy, as it was part of the choice that they made. However, if you complain about it, and do nothing to change your station, then you do not deserve that additional income, as, in my opinon, you did nothing to earn it.

tl;dr If you are unahppy with your current pay rate, work to change it, either by comissioning, or advancing your career.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 3:09 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Nov 2013 15:09:23 -0400

Unless you have either been on both sides, or worked hand in hand with the other side...the other side will always look greener. An LT may not know how much work a Soldier puts in (he should but for the sake of the conversation lets say he doesn't) and for the most part I would venture to say a lot of enlisted personnel are unaware of the work put in by an Officer. My eyes were opened up when working in the 3 shop. I went home at descent time....that CPT filling in a MAJ spot at the S3...couldn't pay me enough to do that job. All those CPTs getting called up by the LTC at 1700 for a meeting...you can have that. As one of my former 1SGs would say, "just dig the hole"

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2013 9:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 01 Nov 2013 21:26:53 -0400

As a former NCO who entered the Army with a degree, let me say it is all about responsibility. As a PL I am signed for 100's of thousands of dollars of equipment, not to mention the 48 guys I am personally responsible for. NCO's do not face that responsibility.

Now that is not to understate the importance of the NCO corps, I cannot be successful without them, but the pay difference is mostly due to where the buck stops and it stops at my doorstep.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 5 at 2013 10:36 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Nov 2013 10:36:55 -0500

Another thing to consider is the fact that above E4 we are all officers whether we have a commission or not.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2013 9:49 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Nov 2013 09:49:36 -0500

No one is or was briefing FGOs or GO here, and the topic was never about grammar. Pointing out an minor oversight in the area of grammar, in a forum where an informal discussion is taking place makes the "pointer" look petty; especially the manner in which it was done. You can tout all of the "beauty-is-in-the-eye-of-the-beholder," you want, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that a "professional" as defined by someone whose opinion you actually admire and respct would have foregone such a comment. Regardless this SNCO who's opinion "is valuable but..." feels that the remark about the poster's grammar was petty and uncalled for....Sir

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 20 at 2013 10:04 AM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Nov 2013 10:04:00 -0500

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 10:27 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Nov 2013 10:27:08 -0500

Don't forget the O in NCO is Officer. We are all officers, albiet commissioned or not. If you want that pay raise, just get a commission. Too easy.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2014 11:10 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 11:10:48 -0500

Would you come in the Army getting paid the same as a PVT as in LT if you knew you were responsible for a whole lot more then that PVT. There has to be some kind of an incentive for officers when they are in the end responsible for so much. Do I think that NCO's should have a higher pay, YES! NCO's work hard and Soldiers work hard. When I see how much congress, house speaker, etc. make I could spit. Especially when they want to cut our pay and benefits.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 24 at 2014 2:06 PM

SPC Charles Brown — Mon, 24 Mar 2014 14:06:21 -0400

This is the government we are talking about here, I am sure that congress is still arguing about how much paper they are willing to use to do this. or how much space to use on their website.