Why have more of our generation not joined the VFW?

CPT Shane D. Metz — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:56:27 -0500

I was lucky that my Uncle who is a Korean and Vietnam War Veteran signed me up right after I returned from Desert Shield/Desert Storm...It was very humbling to me to see our Older Generation continuing to serve their community. After Reading the COS yearly letter a few weeks ago...My question to everyone here what are you doing to continue serving your community as on Active duty, a Reservist or a National Guard SM, Veteran or Retiree...nor what branch of military service we are all Brothers and Sisters under one flag...

You can take this as call to Service...it is time for our Generation to step up and take up the reins and help make the VFW even greater than what it is now...

This is my Challenge to you...

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Feb 23 at 2015 2:59 PM

SGT Jim Z. — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 14:59:51 -0500

CPT Shane D. Metz I personally am a member of the American Legion Post 116 Fuquay-Varina, NC.

Response by SSgt Robert Clark made Feb 23 at 2015 3:13 PM

SSgt Robert Clark — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 15:13:43 -0500

Unfortunately, I am not qualified to join the VFW. However, I fully support and encourage those who are to join.

Response by Sgt Kate Ross made Feb 23 at 2015 4:00 PM

Sgt Kate Ross — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:00:05 -0500

I did try to joint a VFW when I first got out back in 1992 and was told I'd need to join the women's auxiliary. I asked if the women's auxiliary was made up of female veterans and was told that's what the wives of veterans joined. Needless to say, I still hold a grudge.

Response by CPT Shane D. Metz made Feb 23 at 2015 5:45 PM

CPT Shane D. Metz — Mon, 23 Feb 2015 17:45:48 -0500

the one thing I did forget is...if you served in the Military but did not serve in Combat...you can still join the American Legion...which is a Veterans Organization.

Response by LCpl Justin Cuevas made Feb 24 at 2015 12:45 PM

LCpl Justin Cuevas — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:45:53 -0500

I agree the VFW is a huge way to step up and continue assisting our brothers and sisters in arms who remain on Active Duty, I am the current Commander of my local Post and it is so gratifying being able to continue serving despite my Veteran status. Semper Fidelis

Response by 1LT Nick Kidwell made Feb 24 at 2015 12:52 PM

1LT Nick Kidwell — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 12:52:40 -0500

I am a life member of the VFW because I know some of my dues go to advocate for veterans. I am however an At-Large member despite the presence of a local VFW hall because, quite frankly, there's nothing drawing me there.

It is a great repository of anecdotal military history, but as a fraternal organization, the VFW has failed to adapt to the the most current generation of combat zone veterans.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Feb 24 at 2015 2:13 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 14:13:38 -0500

I joined the VFW but living here in Denmark the only thing I get is a magazine a few times a year. I do enjoy it. I guess I joined because I wanted some type of a connection I guess.

Response by SFC Randall Beat made Jun 25 at 2015 1:43 PM

SFC Randall Beat — Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:43:20 -0400

Hello "Brothers and Sisters in Arms",

I apologize now this will likely be a long post.

VSOs in general have a uphill battle against the current culture of our nation. VSOs were largely founded on an all but gone community culture that many veterans of previous conflict/wars shared. This is the reason most VSOs need to make changes to accommodate younger veterans, the old ways need to change with the culture.

Before I joined my local VFW almost 2 years ago, I did some research on the current status of VSOs and how they were fairing in the current national culture. What I found very quickly is that most if not all VSOs were shrinking in overall membership and many post were closing due to low membership and low activity.

I’ll give you a brief background about me to show you my prospective. I served 18 years US Army – Medical Discharged for lower back injury in the line of duty, 30% disability rating from VA, BA in Business Admin. – Marketing, MA in Business and Organizational Security Management.
I moved from Southern California to North Idaho in April of 2013. During that long drive I made a decision to be part of the community I live in rather than just live in the community. I decided months later to join the VFW in my community. So I looked up the nearest post and found via the website when there post meeting were. So I show up and as soon as I walk in the door, everyone in the room turns and looks at me. One of the members asked “Are you a member?” I replied “not yet”. I quickly got a reply “you cannot come in; this is a members only meeting”. I turned and left the room, a membered followed me out and gave me quick explanation why I was not allowed to attend and that he did not have time to see to making me a member right now. There were only about 10 members in the room and only one of them was below the age of 50. I came back on another day and paid my dues and became a “card carrying member”. From there I attend most of the VFW functions and quickly became a “pain in the arse” to many of the older members, with my new ideas and spitfire attitude.
Looking back I understand that many posts will come off with the good ol’ boy attitude, but sticking with it will often times overcome that built in culture. I also found that when I gave an idea that I needed to back it up with action and reap the respect from its success. Over the last 19 months, I have been given enough rope to hang myself and instead used that rope to make a bridge between the post and our community. Here are some of the new things our post has done in the last 18 months and the out comes from those events:
Hosted a Game convention in alliance with our local Game store
60 people attended and the event made the front page of the paper.

The post made over $18,000 dollars in donations and donated over $18,000 to veterans in our community. There were no 30% costs or administration fees put on this money. Every dime we were donated went back to the veterans in our community.
We supported Women Warrior Retreat and recruited several female veterans.
We planned and will hold our first Veteran Family Retreat this weekend, in hopes of making it an annual event.
From these events and activities I have learned that activity breeds activity. The older the average age of a post is the more difficult it will be to stay activity in the community. So recruiting members is and will always be the life blood of VSOs. If you are not getting new “younger” members, your post is effectively dying a slow death. As you all know many posts have a bar that at one point in time with the “best watering hole in town”. That watering hole is now all dried up! The younger veterans that would be considered the market for VSOs are in the stage of their life that they have kids and jobs, alcohol though legal is not the preferred method of building loyalty with a veteran family. In my opinion the posts that perpetuation the stereo typical of veterans wasting their days away drinking and smoking at the “Watering hole” is doing more damage to VSOs than anything else. VSOs must be active in their community or they will waste away.
Some of the ways a post can be active in its community are: providing a Veteran Family Retreat, putting on a month Family movie night, have a weekly coffee and donut (free) where all veterans are welcome. This is just a few ways to move in the right direction, I’m sure there are many more. I would enjoy hearing about them.
Since joining the VFW, I have been placed/voted into several positions: Post Jr Vice, Post Sr Vice, District QM and District Chief Recruiter, I also attended the state conventions, I decided to focus on my community rather than focus on trying to move up the chairs in district. As many of you know VSOs are a bureaucracy and that means “Red Tape” and paper work. After holding the positions, I understand the need for the paper work. My goal is to change my community’s view of the VFW and provide for the veterans in my community. VSOs are a community based organization and that being said they add value to their community or they will go away.

Thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy post and if you are in need of direction when it comes to a VSO please feel free to contact me.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 11:44 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:44:28 -0400

It is highly dependent on the individual post. I have found as a general rule that those closer to military installations have done a much better job of growing with the times than those out in the hinterlands.
That said, the one in my hometown, Hendersonville, NC has done a better than average job of making the post in general and the canteen, specifically, more appealing to younger folks. Great live music on the weekends. BBQs and potlucks throughout the week. Welcoming to women vets.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 12:05 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:05:39 -0400

Because I'm busy trying to be committed to my new civilian life as a full time student, father of two, and guardsman. I don't have time to hang out at the bar spending money on cheap beer while being regaled with stories of the good old days (when the army was still hard) all the while trying to not get a DUI on the way home. I'm much more likely to join up with the vet running group I heard about a few weeks ago. Sounds much more positive and a good use of my time.

Response by MGySgt Douglas C. made Oct 20 at 2015 1:03 PM

MGySgt Douglas C. — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 13:03:26 -0400

I was a member in the early 90's after returning from Desert Shield/Storm but during a recruitment drive I discovered that there were two separate posts in my area. Yes, you guessed it, one for white members and one for black members. I was told by the post Commander (a WWII veteran) that it would be that way as long as he was alive. I immediately resigned and have not set foot in a post since then. It was the same for the American Legion. AmVets was the only integrated veterans organization in my area. Things may be different now, but this left a very bad taste in my mouth and I refuse to be a part of any such shenanigans.

Response by SMSgt Michael Carl made Oct 20 at 2015 2:17 PM

SMSgt Michael Carl — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:17:53 -0400

I joined the VFW upon retirement from the USAF just 8 months ago. Signed up for a year membership, which I will probably change to a lifetime membership. Went to one meeting at my local post here in MD and was dismayed at the lack of enthusiasm towards recruiting new members, the lack of organization towards social media outreach programs. I have never been called nor emailed. I have a friend in FL who is very active in the VFW and I am a member of their FB page. I see wonderful projects and get togethers that they are involved in. I am of the opinion that today's vets want to join and be part of a team that performs civic activities that benefit the community. I don't think any of us IRQ/AFG vets want to sit at a lodge drinking beer and talking about the not so old days. We want to get involved and participate and we want an organization that is active not passive.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 2:25 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:25:37 -0400

My initial thoughts are the younger generations perception of VFW. Younger vets see it as a place that old vets go to tell war stories and drink all day. I'm not saying that is an accurate assumption, but the perception is still there...Most of the older vets are retired and kids out of the house etc with lots of time on their hands. younger vets have full time post military careers and young families to raise, kids that need taken to soccer practice or swimming lessons, etc.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 2:32 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:32:26 -0400

I am still in the process of getting my life in order with a family of 6. I spent more time on the guard than one weekend a month. When things settle down and I can give the VFW its due dilligence I will reevaluate @ that time.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 2:48 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 14:48:23 -0400

Originally because I didn't qualify. When they opened up Kosovo as a qualifying conflict to join I was offered by my Post back in my hometown and signed up. Unfortunately I've moved around a lot so regular participation has been problematic. But I am now a life member and plan to look into a local post when I settle enough to participate.
I do know for a large part that it's perception. Most see the VFW, and in a lot of cases the Legion (although the motorcycle association sometimes helps them), as older retirees from anywhere ranging WWII to the Vietnam War. They see it as a guy's military club to sit around a bar in the club to smoke, drink, and harumph about the old days or reminisce about the women in their travels. And in a lot of cases it isn't far off. The VFW needs to start re-aligning to keep those old schoolers while also attracting the newer types ranging from activities to intra-group interaction. Bring in a coffee bar with the booze, restrict the smoking to outside, install reliable free WiFi to members and possibly add a couple of computers in a café of sorts. Keep up the lobbying for traditional supported positions but start looking at possible newer ones as well that the younger generation(s) see as being important.
The VFW is one of those things, from what I've seen so far, that might be it's own worst enemy. It cannot stay entirely the same and expect to survive. If it can prove the ability to adapt, and with the much larger pool of recruits now with Desert Storm through Enduring Freedom, it has a chance to endure. Overall it is a great organization and I know the guys in the Post back home do a lot with the local schools and such. But it's usually the elementary schools for plays and the like. I don't recall seeing them a lot around the high schools, recruiting centers, or separation/transition briefs on bases.

Response by SPC James Evans made Oct 20 at 2015 3:56 PM

SPC James Evans — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 15:56:56 -0400

Thanks for commenting on this subject. I first joined a year after my ETS date in 1976 had an absence for a while raising my sons. I got active again 6 years ago. I've been a Commander, Quartermaster and held many other offices. I'm currently an Adjutant at my current VFW Post and Judge Advocate at my local AMVETS. Also I'm a VFW District Post Inspector and Sergeant at Arms.
Missouri has our first female State Commander, my VFW has the first female Commander also my AMVETS has a female finance Office. All are if recent Wars and or Conflicts.

Response by CW3 Eric W. S. made Oct 20 at 2015 4:51 PM

CW3 Eric W. S. — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:51:07 -0400

If the current VFW members did not see the younger generation as a threat to the old ways, they might be able to acquire someone younger that was not into drinking beer and telling war stories... I am tired of being ostracized because of the war I fought in.

Response by MSG Anthony DiFondi made Oct 20 at 2015 7:21 PM

MSG Anthony DiFondi — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:21:20 -0400

I concur with 1LT Nick Kidwell. I am also a life member at the VFW (member at large), a member of the American Legion and the DAV. I only go to the meeting halls about once a year because they are so filled with smoke, I cough for days later. The aging veterans may have been major smokers, but the vast majority of Soldiers and recent veterans are living healthier. I am not bashing the smokers. If that is your thing, enjoy yourselves. Just don't expect me to sit next to you while you kill me as well as yourself.

Response by SFC Michael Peterson made Oct 20 at 2015 8:14 PM

SFC Michael Peterson — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 20:14:02 -0400

I joined the VFW just over a year ago. The first person I met when I walked through the door was a guy who walked off a landing craft onto Utah Beach on "D+4".

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2015 9:30 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:30:52 -0400

Today's generation is not one to join organizations. ALL groups are suffering, from service groups, to frats/sororities, to Freemasons, to the Rotary... hell, even the military. They - WE - have too many other things to do.

And, if you scan the commentary, WAY too many VFW Posts suffer from the, "My conflict/war was better than your conflict/war," just like they used to do. A thousand years ago (1983-86), I bartended at a a VFW, and the WWII vets dogged on the Korean War vets, who dogged on the Vietnam vets. It's happened forever. And now that the military actually has GIRLS getting combat tours (said with sarcasm), the old-timers REALLY don't know what to do.

The best bet is to join and MAKE the change, so the next person has it easier than you did.

Response by LTC Eric Coger made Oct 21 at 2015 10:59 AM

LTC Eric Coger — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 10:59:40 -0400

I am a life time VFW member, but I don't go to meetings or to the local VFW. With work and family, most of these fraternal organizations are held together by a few core members in each chapter. Once I transition from active duty, and the kids are older, I will be more active most likely. The draw is hard. We live in an era where the E clubs and the O Clubs and NCO Clubs are all but gone; socializing with our brothers in arms has become a private affair. For mostly negative impacts to the profession of arms and the brotherhood of recent combat veterans.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2015 12:49 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:49:32 -0400

We get engaged while on Active Duty by the USO, Navy/Marine Corps Relief, CFC, MWR and then also belong to Command organizations (CPO/NCO, etc.). The reason why more of us don't join VSO's is because we don't have any direct connection with them, unless the post nearest one of the stateside bases reaches out during the short time we're assigned there.
The other problem is that screwed up admin/service records is the norm, and the stupid way the DoD went about approving and awarding the OIF medal and CARs early on disenfranchised a lot of people. Hell, I took all sorts of incoming indirect fire, but because I wasn't afforded the opportunity to shoot back at those cowards, I don't get a CAR? I guess I shouldn't have ducked so maybe I could have gotten a Purple Heart, hmm? I had to *trade* my GWOTEM to get the ICM, and was also awarded a JCOM by the Army but then the Navy has some stupid protracted process for submitting all this before it "counts"? Yeah, meanwhile, I've got my REAL job to do, and since I didn't do the job for the awards, getting paper-pushers to do their job and fix all the paperwork remained a low priority. Well guess what, it's FINALLY all on my DD214 now, but this is the reality: At the end of the day, everything is on the individual (and your retirement clerk, LOL). If somebody wants to give me a break because I served, it's the exception, not the norm. It was nice to walk into a USO on the rare occasions my flight happened to be in the same terminal, but now I don't intend to set foot in one of our Nazi airports ever again. I've come home to a country that is more like the USSR than when I joined. I don't feel entitled nor obligated and won't behave as though I am. It was a job and I did my job. I did a lot of stuff for a lot of other people and I never expected it to come back around; if it does, great, but I'm not holding my breath or trolling in VSO's trying to get a free lunch. Wife and I belong to the local HOG chapter because we get more out of a riding organization than a drinking organization, and when you ride, it doesn't matter that the meetup is over 30 miles away.

Response by SGT Scott Henderson made Oct 21 at 2015 1:14 PM

SGT Scott Henderson — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:14:28 -0400

Why aren't more vets joining the VFW? Because no one really gives a crap anymore. It goes both ways, the public and especially politicians don't care about us. No one is really proud to be a vet of Iraq or Afghanistan because nothing we've done has changed either country; what is there to be proud of?
Advocating for vets? Is that why it's been almost a year and a half since I first applied for my vehicle modification but it's still "being processed" by the VA? I was Med-boarded for this condition, my application should be open and shut. After my first deployment the VFW reps were on us like hawks; probably looking for new dues. After 2004 they largely stopped showing up at airports or homecomings; why?

Response by COL John McClellan made Oct 21 at 2015 1:46 PM

COL John McClellan — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 13:46:43 -0400

Good topic! I agree, our generations have not shown much interest in sustaining these kinds of institutions/organizations like the VFW that were started by our fellow warriors in the past. I'm the Post Adjutant now for my VFW, after only 1 year of membership, so - called answered. But I'm 51, and was a career Army officer. What we've really been discussing at Post #3282 is how to reach out to young Vets of OIF/OEF and what kinds of services or programs could we offer that would be of benefit to them. We're working with the VA locally, Embry Riddle, and Team RWB.

Response by SPC Joshua Heath made Oct 21 at 2015 2:14 PM

SPC Joshua Heath — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:14:46 -0400

I am a life member, but the half-dozen halls I've visited have been disappointing. There is such a disconnect between the let's sit around and drink bs I see and what I want to do with my life and time.

Response by Sgt Ken Gergely made Oct 21 at 2015 2:16 PM

Sgt Ken Gergely — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:16:48 -0400

My grandfather is a veteran of the Korean War and a member. I was retired last January and kind of excited to join so I went into my local one to sign up. When I walked in no one seemed to care to see a new face and no one talked to me hardly. I shook it off and began approaching people and asking them about themselves. I didn't feel a connection nor did I feel like anyone was very friendly so I never went back. I definitely don't feel like this is an organization I wanna be apart of and until they change my mind I won't go back.

Response by SSG Ricardo Marcial made Oct 21 at 2015 2:28 PM

SSG Ricardo Marcial — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:28:50 -0400

IAVA, is one answer. I have not joined VFW, but I do go their events and network.

Response by SGT Victor Cepero made Oct 21 at 2015 2:41 PM

SGT Victor Cepero — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 14:41:02 -0400

I think a lot of it has to do with each individual VFW. As a child my grandfather and father would take me to the VFW. It was humbling to hear the stories and meet these great warriors. They invited all veterans in and did things for the whole family to be part of the organization. But when I joined my local VFW after serving in Iraq. That chapter was not very welcoming of the newer vets. Went out of there way to make the new vets feel unwelcome and did nothing to include our family's. After there number started to dewidle the new commander started to ask way the new vets wouldn't come to the VFW. It was explained that the no cursing rule, watching horse racing on all six tv during the play offs, and doing nothing for family involvement, etc had pretty much killed the new generations want to go there. Six years later and lots of trying on the VFWs part still have not repaired the gap that was made. I myself as a life member and friend with several older vets might go three or four times a year.

Response by SSgt Chris Blackmore made Oct 21 at 2015 4:42 PM

SSgt Chris Blackmore — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 16:42:32 -0400

I wanted to join as I just retired. Specifically I wanted to be a part of their Motorcycle Club. I was told as I ride a sport bike and not an American "cruiser style" bike I would not be allowed. Piss on them. I should sue for discrimination. I will never join a group that will tell a potential member that.

Response by SGM Ron Crump made Oct 21 at 2015 6:29 PM

SGM Ron Crump — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 18:29:48 -0400

After reading many of the posts and replies here. I feel that these VSOs are VW Bug drivers in a Corvette race. To date I have been an off and on member of the VFW and the Legion, because the status quo has not changed for any of the local chapters. I am not interested in drinking in a dingy bar , eating bar food or have my dues support the bar. Also I am not covered in TATS, have a pony tail or ride a Harley, so I don't fit in there. The old timers (Lord Bless Them) are rooted in their past and refuse to change.

Response by LCpl Adan Ontiveros made Oct 21 at 2015 8:15 PM

LCpl Adan Ontiveros — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:15:14 -0400

I think its outdated and perhaps a new not for profit could be in order to serve todays veterans. entrepreneurial idea for free. now do something

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Oct 21 at 2015 8:27 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 20:27:27 -0400

I've been to a few American Legion and VFW meetings and we all smell old. We have little in common with young vets who are struggling to find jobs and women. Sadly, many of us treat younger vets poorly. Our memories of our daring adventures have swollen into legends and we look down our noses at these kids who didn't fight "a real enemy", just some stone age Arabs who set off IEDs and run away.

Now, before you jump all over me because you don't recognize irony when you see it, let me assure you that I'm not saying what ought to be. I am merely reflecting on what sadly the situation is. My vision is taken from the complaints that I've heard from young vets.

To be fair, I avoided the veterans organizations until I smelled as old as them. It took that long for me to realize that I owed a debt to my brothers and sisters who served and that participation in a post (two actually - one AL and one VFW) was the best way of paying off that debt. I hope today's young vets don't wait as long as I did. The need is great and the government is failing in its obligations to veterans as they always have in the past and always will in the future. What do you expect? They're only politicians and bureaucrats.

Response by PO3 Eugene Rizzardi made Oct 21 at 2015 9:27 PM

PO3 Eugene Rizzardi — Wed, 21 Oct 2015 21:27:59 -0400

I did not join the VFW or the American Legion for one reason. I will not sit in a bar, drink and tell war stories. That is all I have ever seen since I was a boy scout at an American Legion and my scoutmaster was a VFW post commander. I did not need to sit with a bunch of old men and drink my sorrow away. I found a good job and and made something of myself and raised a family.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 7:56 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 07:56:28 -0400

I like your post and by the wording, it sounds like you are currently a VFW member. I have wanted to join a VFW post many times, but every time I don't, it's always for the same reason. Every VFW hall I've visited reeked of cigarette smoke. I'm not fond of the smoke, but my wife is extremely allergic to it. We would both love to find a group to be a part of like the VFW, but the smoke is the biggest turn off. My challenge to you and every VFW Post looking to improve its membership is to get rid of indoor smoking and pay the money to have the lingering smell removed.

Response by PFC Robert Falk made Oct 22 at 2015 8:00 AM

PFC Robert Falk — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 08:00:51 -0400

Some feel that serving the country is payment enough and think the "dues" is a load of B.S.

Response by CPT(P) David Thorp made Oct 22 at 2015 9:08 AM

CPT(P) David Thorp — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 09:08:58 -0400

I gotta pay my dues

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 10:46 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 10:46:03 -0400

To answer the original question, I am yet to join, but from what I've seen there is a generational gap, in terms of leadership and what's going on at the post, but I digress for a bit - that might not be true for VFW's across.... I intend on joining, and who knows, maybe work to make a difference. I do think we should still be involved/connected somehow, as I see a unique benefit and bond we have, with nothing to lose.

Response by SSgt Michael Cox made Oct 22 at 2015 11:05 AM

SSgt Michael Cox — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:05:10 -0400

I am a life time member of VFW post 1435 but I have only been in the hall 3-4 times. As one of the other guys said I know my dues go to help other veterans with scholarships, help with emergency bill pay, and other things. But after being stationed in S Korea and then England I am burnt out on the whole bar seen. And I know the main reason most of my friends don't join is because they thing that all it is, is a good old boys bar. I think the best thing the VFW could do is have every post on social media and do more in the public and let people know there is more to the VFW then just a bar.

As for your question about what do I do to continue to serve I am a veterans outreach coordinator for Vet Corps. While technically an Americacorps member I am paid by the Washington State Department of Veterans Affairs. I connect student veterans and their families to local, state, and federal resources.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 11:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 11:14:29 -0400

I am a member of my local VFW and I help out with my boyfriend's VFW as well. I love talking to the older Veteran's and my town has the third largest Veteran's Day Parade this side of the Mississippi, so I get to meet lots of WWII, Korean and Vietnam War Vets. It's a humbling experience to say the least. They paved the way for us Veterans of today.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 12:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 12:03:04 -0400

Great question, brother. It reminds me that I need to go and join them. I love those guys. When I was enlisted I was a musician by MOS and on trips we would see different localities' VFW chapters, sponsoring us sometimes, or doing parades, whatever. Hanging out and drinking a beer with those old dudes and hearing their stories about serving in past conflicts was always cool.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Oct 22 at 2015 1:03 PM

CPL Brian Clouser — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:03:11 -0400

I have been a member of my local VFW since 1997. Since that time I have held many officers positions, from Trustee to Jr, Vice Commander.
With that said, I will only speak about my post. One reason why the younger vets don't is because they think that all we do there is get drunk and tell "war stories" which is far from the truth. Another reason is the post isn't "family friendly" except for a kids Christmas party nothing is done for the members families. Basically the VFW has become an "old boys club"
I do know that since the War on Terror,many Posts has grown and new Posts has opened.

Response by SSG Alan Wardell made Oct 22 at 2015 1:15 PM

SSG Alan Wardell — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:15:13 -0400

the truth is the vfw doesnt market well to our generation. they other war vets usually took 10-15 years to start comming into the vfw as well

Response by SSG John Gillespie made Oct 22 at 2015 1:34 PM

SSG John Gillespie — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:34:56 -0400

I've honestly never had a real desire to join either VFW or AL, any more than I had a desire to join fraternal organizations while in service. I'm simply not wired that way and I've always had a disdain for people who advanced their fraternal members over other deserving Soldiers. I've seen it firsthand, especially early in my career, and it's not something which should be tolerated.

As for the veteran's advocacy which VFW and AL do at times, I agree that it's certainly necessary, but I don't see either doing more than other, less socially prominent, organizations like AUSA. As a whole, my view of VFW / AL is that of a good ole boys club and I want no part of something like that.

As others have pointed out, the whole dues thing is a big turn off as well. If you really want to organize veterans in a community, why require financially gated access? Where's the brotherhood and camaraderie in that, especially when so many of us are historically not so well off? If you want to raise funds to do things for and with the community, that's fine, but that doesn't mean you should require payment just to associate with other veterans. We've ALL paid our dues. The hard way.

In short, get away from the club mentality as it does nothing but drive away people like me who want nothing to do with such things. I *would* however, freely associate with other veterans and retirees whom I found some common ground with, so long as mutual respect was the rule and not the exception. It's good to know that there are others who are willing to have your back and have a good idea of what you've been through and are going through.

Response by SP5 David Cox made Oct 22 at 2015 1:39 PM

SP5 David Cox — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:39:23 -0400

My active duty time doesn't qualify me for the VFW, or the Legion. There might be a loophole that would qualify me based on my civilian experience (Berlin Brigade, West Berlin), but frankly it doesn't seem to be worth the effort. Yes, I know that these organizations do serve the community, but the perception is more that they just gather in their hall/clubhouse/whatever and drink beer and play pool. I've never seen any compelling need for me to make the effort to try to join, and no one has ever made much of an effort to recruit me.

Response by SFC Chet Crowell made Oct 22 at 2015 1:54 PM

SFC Chet Crowell — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 13:54:40 -0400

I have served from the Panama Invasion to OIF III. Unfortunately the VFW's I've attended still have this, "us and them" attitude. It's still the mentality of the Vietnam Vets that aren't always inviting. The Commander of my local VFW, is not pleasant to deal with.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 2:17 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:17:17 -0400

I found it to be like the Catholic Church, no matter how much you give they want more. Participate in one fund raiser and with in a week you get another in the mail. It got to the point where I received 8 fundraisers a month. I called and was told that I had been added to multiple fundraiser lists. That ended it for me.

Response by SSG Keith Cashion made Oct 22 at 2015 2:24 PM

SSG Keith Cashion — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 14:24:20 -0400

I have been to several VFW's and some are like just the local Bar to hang out and drink. Some run the organization as if they are still Active Duty, which can be good and bad. I retired and thought this may be away to keep connected to comrades in arms, and truth be told, I always loved talking to the older generation, but the locations I have been to or visited are like I stated, a bar or treat you like you are still on Active duty or you haven't been to a real war. I have been to a lot of the "Sandy Vacation Spots." The problem with some organizations is that (and this has been stated), if you don't play their silly games you are treated badly, and I don't really think that is what these organizations are really about. But until the "Old Guard" is brought up to speed or current events, they will continue to lose out on a great amount of knowledge, experience and camaraderie from this current generation of veterans.

Response by SSgt Bob Williams made Oct 22 at 2015 4:30 PM

SSgt Bob Williams — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:30:47 -0400

No, and I think for myself personally it is due to my raising.

I was in Desert Storm, so yes I do qualify, but growing up as a kid, I watched my father, and his brothers, literally drown themselves in alcohol at the local VFW post almost every night, and I swore to myself and my wife that she, nor my children would ever see that. When I drive by a VFW post, the only thing that I think of unfortunately, is my father getting drunk.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Oct 22 at 2015 4:56 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 16:56:22 -0400

If they want to add members, criteria for membership will have to be expanded. I have hear this many times from those that want to join. If there was fresh blood at the VFW facilities, perhaps the old stories over a beer could be replaced by more current "sea stories" and the newbies could learn from the more experienced.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2015 11:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:39:35 -0400

It's because the VFW and American Legion are pretty much just a bar where old men go to drink. I know that they advocate for veterans, but the majority of young vets don't see that.
Instead of asking why young vets aren't taking the reins of the VFW, why not ask why the VFW isn't throwing it's weight behind powerful working vet groups like Team Rubicon? Our vets are still young, strong, and want to make a difference in the world. If the VFW wants to attract people, they need to partner with these groups to show what the VFW can offer.

Response by LTC Donald (Don) Bachler made Oct 22 at 2015 11:49 PM

LTC Donald (Don) Bachler — Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:49:11 -0400

I am a lifetime member. I moved to my current town and transferred my membership, but the VFW is nothing but a nasty old bar with very few people hanging around. My wife is a veteran, but we find the Women's Auxillary concept a bit offensive. We need to update the VFW to reflect the current times.

Response by TSgt Kenneth Ellis made Oct 23 at 2015 12:19 AM

TSgt Kenneth Ellis — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 00:19:22 -0400

Yes I'm a life member. I'm also a life member in the DAV.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 10:59 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 10:59:56 -0400

I am a VFW member.

The VFW would been amazingly strong if they would have changed with the times instead of letting organisations like WWP or DAV to come in with a modern view on marketing. The VFW could be strong again, but most of the voters are quite old and does not want to change. This is very unfortunate.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 23 at 2015 9:51 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:51:08 -0400

I've been by and I do plan on joining. And I like and respect those who went before me to WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. But the simple truth is every VFW post just looks like a '70s dayroom, with pool tables, people drinking, and telling war stories. The VFW hasn't made itself relevant to people younger than me.

How? I'm not sure, but computer game competitions might be a good start. Another possibility is a game called Ingress. (http://www.ingress.com.) It's like Capture the Flag, but the entire world is the playing field and you play and see the flags using a cell phone. I'm playing for the Resistance, trying to keep the Enlightened from controlling everyone's brain on behalf of aliens called the Shapers. (incidentally, I'm not kidding when I say ENTIRE world. There's a flag in Antarctica.)

Ok, probably sounds crazy, but it's a young person's game, a team game, and a game that gets you more exercise than doing 12 ounce curls. (I'm 60, but I'm still young on the inside.) It's best played with a team, and it's more fun than you can imagine from what I've told you. But it uses what we are already good at, teamwork, strategy, tactics, planning, execution, psychological warfare, intelligence, communications ... all skills we have well above the civilian average.

Or whatever else someone thinks of. You are going to have to find something the younger generation is interested in, if you want to attract more.

Response by SFC Richard Haugh made Oct 24 at 2015 4:51 AM

SFC Richard Haugh — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 04:51:35 -0400

I too am a VFW Member - Bronze Legacy LM... the answer is quite simple... The current generation "Warriors" and working their butts off to pay bills and what not - most of them are also husbands, wives, mothers, fathers with additional commitments and priorities... all we can do as VFW members is keep shaking that tree to gain more members and stay in constant contact with our current members (to let them know we understand and care) and keep inviting them out as their time allows... there will come a time when their lives will offer them the chance to actively participate. Also, when they do show up to VFW meetings and activities... we better not waist their time and not offer them leadership positions or duties.......... I was also a successful Past Post Commander to VFW Post 8214 Manchester New Hampshire! Hoorah!!! GREAT TALKING POINT CPT Metz! We need to keep the VFW and the American Legion Post (throughout the world) alive and functioning!!!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 24 at 2015 11:33 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 11:33:01 -0400

I think its the image. Old vets drinking beer and conversing about war stories.

Response by PO2 Wesley Wilson made Oct 24 at 2015 3:15 PM

PO2 Wesley Wilson — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 15:15:00 -0400

there is a severe generation GAP in the VSO's Many vets with great records are simply not eligible to join. They were cold war 70s and 80s long periods where there were no declared conflicts.

Next the VSO's themselves made to attempt to educate or recruit they in many cases are seen as groups of old men who sit at the Bar and talk. Younger members are often made to feel like outsiders and are often not asked to participate older members seem to feel that "Things are good the way they are" and resist changes that would serve the Vet community as a whole.

Sadly I think VSO will soon be a thing of the past unless the National leadership embraces the younger generations and makes VSOs relevant and needed.

Response by TSgt Ray Rock made Oct 24 at 2015 4:28 PM

TSgt Ray Rock — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 16:28:58 -0400

In years past the VFW was the social network. Folks went there to get the latest news and to keep up with their buddies, today that’s no longer the case. Folks can get all the news they want and easily keep in touch without having to physically go to the VFW or anyplace else.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2015 8:59 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Oct 2015 20:59:05 -0400

In not eligible for the VFW despite my 28 years service because I have never been deployed. However, the American Legion has the same issues; as well as other organizations I belong to. I know most of these organizations attract retired people in large part because working people are busy at work and raising a family. Also a smaller percentage of the population are veterans as compared with the 20-20 years after World War II; the WWII vets are dying off and Vietnam vets never seemed as interested although I think a few more of them have joined after they got older. The VFW and the Legion should work harder to attract younger vets.

Response by MSgt Daniel Attilio made Oct 25 at 2015 2:09 PM

MSgt Daniel Attilio — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 14:09:04 -0400

I joined but do not participate much with the VFW, instead I attend meetings and participate in events with the local chapter of the Marine Corps League whose meetings are held at the VFW. I have stronger ties to the Marine Corps League than I would/do to the VFW. Perhaps once I complete school I may attend meetings of the VFW and American Legion.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 4:42 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 16:42:38 -0400

1. I think they need to promote themselves more by going to various bases and letting the current generation of service members know that they exist. I only found out about them when I was deploying.

2. Get their own websites / social media so that interested parties can locate them when they return stateside.

3. WELCOME new veterans. If a post doesn't make a new veteran feel welcome, not only will he or she not return to that post, but many will write off the whole organization. I was my post's first female in 85 years of its existence. My commander made a point of recognizing me at the Memorial Day Parade, which reminds people that females are a part of the military and the organization (and will hopefully encourage others to join the military and the VFW).

4. Consider giving the first year free or apply the dues for 12 months (instead of calendar year). One of my colleagues said that he joined in November, and in January he was being hounded for dues. Because of that, he said that he will never join.

5. Do interesting /meaningful events in the community. So many people have this notion (rightly or wrongly depending on the post) that the VFW is a cheap watering hole with smoking and war stories. PROVE THEM WRONG! Do volunteerism (visiting sick vets, writing letters via Operation Gratitude, march in parades, go speak in schools, host events on your post).

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 6:27 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:27:02 -0400

I have moved around so much, and many of my friends who I served with live around the world. I connect with them, and others that I served with virtually. Much the same way that we are connecting through RallyPoint. Your question is a valid one though. My question back to you would be, how has the VFW adapted to welcome the new generation of veterans?

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Oct 25 at 2015 6:43 PM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 18:43:37 -0400

I joined for a year back in 2001, it was pretty much a symbolic gesture, since the post I joined was about an hour away and I was always too busy to go. The VFW needs to reeinvent themselves. The way I see it the VFW's heyday was probably years ago when we had so many WW2 vets in it. There was a generation gap between them and Vietnam Vets, as well as between Vietnam and Desert Storm. Now it's the same with Those and the recent Vets from Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am thinking about joining a local post again, but am leary about a lot of organizations. Deserved or not the VFW has a reputation as a bunch of old guys sitting around and lying about what they did in the military. I have zero tolerance for BS.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 7:30 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:30:44 -0400

Tell me why I should join the VFW. Ask me whatever you need to in order to address my question. It doesn't speak to me.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 7:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 19:40:36 -0400

In 1968, I was talked into joining the VFW and went down there to fill out an app. I was told I couldn't join because Vietnam wasn't considered a war. I told that A hole to take that app and stick it where the sun don't shine, then walked out, and never looked back. Two years ago, a friend of mine, another Vietnam vet, wanted me to join the American Legion. I took a chance and went with him on a meeting night. There was so much cigarette smoke and drunks, I politely thanked him but said no. Besides that I don't like to sit around and tell war stories. Actually I'm not that friendly to people I don't know. Last year it was found out the Legion post commander had lied on his app and was never in Vietnam or any combat. There ya go. Another lying phony. I rest my case.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Oct 25 at 2015 8:19 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 20:19:12 -0400

I am a Life Member of the VFW and Past Commander. Also Member of the American Legion. Why would anyone in their right mind want to sit around in an old broken down building and listen to old men lobotomized by FOX News bitch about that Socialist President (Noticed a lot of these same old men love to use that N-Word). Yes there is a big Cultural Divide and until these Veterans Organizations learn how to deal with it they are going to have some problems.

Response by PO1 Cameron Rhyne made Oct 26 at 2015 3:34 AM

PO1 Cameron Rhyne — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 03:34:18 -0400

I got out about 6 months ago but frankly haven't ever really been a joiner. In high school, college or the military, I never got into the official organizations because I never saw ones that appealed to me. I also had more then enough of my own work and hobbies to keep me busy, which is also part of it.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Oct 26 at 2015 6:54 AM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 06:54:11 -0400

Thought about it and actually visited the local several times and decided not for me. Too many sitting around drinking, smoking and talking about the good old days. It was easy to tell some had never moved on and it was kind of sad and decided this wasn't for me. While I loved my time in the military it doesn't comprise the only good thing that happened in my life like so many I saw.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2015 7:45 AM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 07:45:50 -0400

I joined the American Legion for my dad, however I have heard the same about the VFW and told my dad the same thing as he is a district head trying to find ways to recruit the younger generation. I am not going to sit around a bar all the time to just sit there and talk. I go in every once in a while and love hearing the stories of older veterans than myself. However I am 26 and the next youngest person in the post I am at is ten years older. I think organizations like these need to adapt to fit the younger generations. I do other things with my time and I am not at that age were I find just sitting at a bar all day is an acceptable activity of my time.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2015 9:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:34:54 -0400

I joined the VFW after my first time downrange (Afghanistan in 2006), but between the aggressive selling of products and other type activities (Nationally and Locally) I just did not feel it was worth my time. Additionally, I did not see much more than the local bar/VFW and I have never been into that scene.
I let my membership lapse and have had to reply multiple times to remove my name from email lists, however I continue to get solicitations.
Reading so many of the posting above (and I am the grandson of a WWII vet and son of a Vietnam, Cold War, and Desert Storm Vet) I don't see much that they offer me locally or even nationally.

Response by SGT Cody Skinner made Oct 26 at 2015 9:48 AM

SGT Cody Skinner — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 09:48:05 -0400

My Wife and I are Lifetime Member of my VFW Post, and this comes up all the time. How do we get more of the younger generation to join and participate? A few of the problems at our post we have found is:
- Our Post's failure to adapt to changing technology and making use of email, Facebook, or any other Social Media to spread the work.
- It seems like a lot of the older generations forget that a lot of us are in the middle of raising families and working. Three kids and a full time job you work 50+ hours a week at tend to cut into you after work activities. We plan and attend as many functions as we can.
- Letting old shit go so that we can plan for a better future. I don't mean to belittle things that happened in the past, but at some point we have to accept it and move forward. Last meeting we were lecture for half an hour on how bad the Vietnam Vets were treated upon returning and how lucky we had it. It was a very unproductive meeting.
- Woman served in Combat. My Wife is also a Combat Veteran and a Lifetime Member of our post. Yet every time we show up to meetings and or events they continue try to push Her into the Woman's Auxiliary instead of recognizing her Service and accepting her as a Veteran.

As of now we have some new leadership in place and have developed some committees to try and improve things. As of now we still can't get a list of the committees, contact details, or anything else so we can set meetings up and get things done. Hoping to clear some of that up at the next meeting.

Response by MSG Sean Milhauser made Oct 26 at 2015 10:37 PM

MSG Sean Milhauser — Mon, 26 Oct 2015 22:37:22 -0400

Like many others that have posted here, I am an American Legion member "at large". I believe in the good things that VSOs do for veterans and the communities in which they're located but still being on active duty (for a few more months), I don't believe I'd feel comfortable going to a chapter yet. Maybe after I hang up the uniform I'll visit one and see for myself if what other have posted here is consistent.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Oct 27 at 2015 12:05 PM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Tue, 27 Oct 2015 12:05:23 -0400

We have too many veteran's groups and it hurts them all. American Legion, VFW, Iraq and Afghanistan, and probably more. Simply need no more than a couple and I would consider joining.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2015 9:24 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:24:00 -0400

I'll just give my honest viewpoint. The perception that I have is that its dated, worn-down, and requires transformation as in social media engagement, targeting the youth and etc. Now, I know that's not fully true... but it's what I feel. I normally pass by buildings that are worn down across the states and I receive letters with a certificate is insanely generic and free member items that I can purchase at the dollar store. I have not been involved, but I just do not feel geared towards the organization. I think it's more of a perception problem.

It's like McDonalds trying to convince me to eat Big-Mac's again or Taco Bell pushing the Double Decker Taco... they taste good... but why not go after the new stuff? I'm just providing a viewpoint, not to criticize the organization... hopefully what I provide helps. Any organization supporting vets I am always grateful for.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Oct 28 at 2015 9:34 AM

Capt Walter Miller — Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:34:36 -0400

Just a guess but the World War Two experience was unique. Units came together, they trained, many for two years or more, they went to Europe, many of them, whupped butt on the bad guys came home, got demobilized, bought houses with the GI Bill, got education from the GI Bill, and started yearning as they got older for the good old days. Plus – there was no ambiguity about the outcome, or the bad guys. Victory was total, the enemy was palpably evil.

That is just totally different from the military experience today.

Walt

Response by SGT Patrick Reno made Oct 28 at 2015 9:41 AM

SGT Patrick Reno — Wed, 28 Oct 2015 09:41:29 -0400

I am disappointed in my post. Have stopped going to meetings. Nobody wants to accomplish any thing. When I joined I thought we would be doing things in the community to help educate them about our veterans and help veterans in need. Nothing was being done no matter what I suggested no one wanted to do anything. Younger members would join and after 2-3 meetings would stop coming because of this.

Response by SPC Charles LaFountain made Nov 5 at 2015 5:40 PM

SPC Charles LaFountain — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 17:40:24 -0500

I served from March 1984 till June 1988 which is apparently the Bermuda triangle of military service as I didn't qualify to join. I tried.

Response by SGT James Hammons made Jun 20 at 2016 9:28 AM

SGT James Hammons — Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:28:59 -0400

The fact is, in the past, WWII Vets and Vietnam Vets had the same issue. It seems to me that if you put you name on the dotted line and wound up in the jungle or desert, Korea, Iraq, or Vietnam; you took just as much chance as the previous generation. There is not one Veteran better than another veteran. In the military you are separated by rank, in the business world by title, but in the VFW you are a Veteran who was willing to sacrifice it for God Country and Family. God Bless our troops and lets make the VFW a great place to socialize no matter what generation.

Response by SFC Randall Moore made Feb 23 at 2018 4:30 PM

SFC Randall Moore — Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:30:40 -0500

I recently Joined the VFW, but am now going to quit. As many have mentioned, the first meeting is a bit cold, "you cant come in here" "where did you serve". You kinda get the third degree, even after joining online and having a card. But the biggest reason for me is that at my post meetings, we have three (3) prayers for a 45 minute meeting. These are not non-denominational prayers, but christian prayers. I am an Atheist, and many I served with are also Atheist, in fact many of the younger soldiers identify as non religious, or atheist. I believe this is a big factor in why younger soldiers stay away. I don't want to listen to 3 lengthy, over bloated prayers at a business meeting. It's wrong. I would compromise with say a small one to open the meeting. I think that would be OK. But man it is a turn off to me and I don't want to be a part of an organization that puts a priority on prayers at meetings and events. The other thing that erks me is the division of vets, pre Vietnam in one group and the post vietnam in the other-Young Guns. I am not a young gun! 24 years in the service, and 50% disabled, the army has destroyed my health and body. I may be younger than those old farts, but I find it a bit insulting to be labeled a young gun. I wanted to belong to an all inclusive organization of vets that span generations and conflicts and then I am put into a different category that seems a bit demeaning to me. Maybe I am a snowflake and this is no big deal to others, but for some reason, it bothers me. So I will not be renewing my VFW membership and have stopped going to meetings.