Why does the Army not relieve poor leaders of command?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 02:43:11 -0400

We are quick to cut NCOs and Jr Enlisted for infractions, but we fail to hold officers to the same standard. If you UCMJ an NCO for DUI, why do officers get a pass? What about extra-marital affairs? I don't understand how officers can hold ourselves so high and be above the standard. The Navy is pretty quick to fire command personnel. Why does the Army choose to keep bad leaders in command, just to allow them to save face?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2014 10:06 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 07 May 2014 22:06:23 -0400

Sir I don't know what you know obviously (by the sound of your claims) but I have seen plenty of Officers "dealt with". I can tell you that I have even seen a COL relieved because his higher leaders lost faith in his leadership abilities, I have witnessed another COL be relieved of his Garrison command because of extramarital affairs, I could tell you the stories of BG Sinclair but I'm sure you know all about that one.

I knew and served under all three of the leaders I mentioned, and those are just a few examples. In that time, I have known of one 1SG to be court martialed, and one SGM be relieved.

I think it is a matter of perspective!

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2014 5:40 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 May 2014 17:40:45 -0400

Sir, I really do not think that Officers get a pass for serious infractions. I have seen commanders get relieved for DUI or even public intoxication. I have seen non-command individuals get career ending GOMARs (they were clearing a couple months afterwards). Often times, administrative actions taken against officers are not made public like Junior Enlisted. This maintains the Officer Corps image that so many of our young Soldiers revere.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2014 2:03 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 14 May 2014 14:03:40 -0400

Josh,

I've witnessed similar situations albeit not at the same degree of severity. An acquaintance of mine, a CPT, was given a GOMOR for domestic violence and the HRC board convened to determine whether retain recommended retention. I know this officer to be of very poor quality.

Other than that, the treatment of officers seems to be akin of the way the Catholic Church has been alleged to deal with abusive priests - quietly sweep under the rug and relocate. I have also seen cases where officers have been dealt with, but I believe it's more often a result of animosity between the officer and his accuser. From my observations, the biggest factor in the disciplining of officers is whether or not they have a good buddy-buddy relationship with their superiors. Sycophantic violators are given much more deference than those that are not as ostentatious.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2014 11:26 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 29 May 2014 23:26:51 -0400

It all depends on three things when it comes to infractions:

1. Does anyone know about it? If they do not know about it then the powers that be cannot do anything about it.

2. Is this their first offense? If not a serious infraction and first one then yes a shot across the bow may be justified.

3. Were they convicted? I have seen many times, of all ranks, where the Soldier was not convicted, charged dropped, or charges reduced. If not convicted of DUI but a lower charge then what do you do? If charges of domestic abuse dropped then what? Was it on post or off when charges filed?

It really comes boils down to every case is different as are the Commanders making the decisions. I graduated OBC with a guy who got a DUI while at school. I do not know what happened to him at his first unit, but I was always told DUIs are career killers. I have yet to see it, but then again luckily I have only seen two Soldiers get DUIs in my career so far.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made May 5 at 2016 10:21 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 05 May 2016 10:21:38 -0400

Reuters
The past three years seem to have been the hardest on army officers, as they have seen a steep, three-fold increase in departures due to misconduct and internal crimes, according to the documents. A total of 119 Army officers were forced to leave due to misconduct in 2010, which closely matched the average since 2000, but the figure more than tripled in 2013 to 387. For enlisted soldiers, the number jumped from 5,600 in 2007 to upward of 11,000 in 2013.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 1:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:32:00 -0400

Because its better to look guilty than to look impotent.

Response by SPC Nancy Greene made Feb 8 at 2020 5:24 AM

SPC Nancy Greene — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 05:24:34 -0500

Excellent Question COT Joshua COOPER!
My command (?) in Germany was the worst group of ‘rag-bag’ , ‘soup sandwich’ Soldiers I ever encountered!
When stationed at Ft McClellan, I was held to extremely high standards! That was a TRADOC Post!
Germany (Garlstedt) was 498th Support Battalion for 2nd Armored Division (FWD). I was appalled by the appearance, attitude, & utter lack of knowledge & leadership skills is n that Battalion!
I was ‘hasseled’ because I was knowledgeable regarding Personnel Management & adherence to AR 610 pertaining to PROPER wearing of BDU’S and Class A&B uniform!
What could a SP4(P) possibly do when her OIC (CPT) looked like a ‘soup sandwich’?
I worked fir the ‘TROOPS’ for 16 months and then I Requested a Medical Discharge!
So, when you speak of lack of consequences for Officers, even Senior Enlisted; I witnessed this first-hand in My Unit!

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Feb 8 at 2020 6:11 AM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 06:11:48 -0500

That doesn't seem to be so much the case recently as a good number of officers have been relieved of duty. However, I do agree with you that it takes a lot more to get an officer relieved or disciplined. The pushback from "on high" is tremendous

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 8 at 2020 8:51 AM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 08:51:08 -0500

I've seen a LtCol and CSM be relieved and forced to retire right before a deployment they were supposed to lead because they tried to influence an E7 who was a grader of a PT test to falsify the score so the LtCol could pass. Unfortunately, I had a lot of respect for the guys before they did that. I mean, I still like the LtCol but I don't have much respect.

Response by LTC Lee Bouchard made Feb 8 at 2020 12:37 PM

LTC Lee Bouchard — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 12:37:35 -0500

It could be an issue in particular command. It's been my experience that stupidly and incompetence
in a poor leader was dealt with quickly. Especially in the Combat Arms branches. In my case, the Infantry. I have had to relieve 3 officers over the years as they were incapable of leading troops without getting people killed. They were fit for pushing pencils but not pushing troops in the field.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2020 1:53 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 13:53:06 -0500

Because it's a racket.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Feb 8 at 2020 3:32 PM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:32:02 -0500

I guess times have changed. When I was in the army 63-66 an officer had 3 chances to get promoted. If they were passed over they had to resign. We also had more Officers that came from the enlisted ranks then. When Vietnam started their was a shortage of experienced personel including officers. Due to my time in the Marine Corp as a Cpl. and going the leadership academy in the army as a SP/5 I was offered a 2nd/LT commission in Vietnam. Our Ammo Dump had just been blown up by the VC. I turned the offer down because I would have had to spend another year in Vietnam . I had only been married 8 months. In the Marine Corp a Cpl was equal to a Sgt. in the Army. Semper Fi.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Feb 8 at 2020 3:54 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:54:06 -0500

The real answer is a mixture of its much more embarrassing for the military when an Officer steps on it and brings all sorts of bad PR to a unit which can and will damage carriers all over the place against enlisted purges for knuckleheads which hardly ever make it above local command.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 8 at 2020 8:47 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 20:47:15 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member Im not saying what you personally observe is incorrect, but I will say overall your very off base.

I've personally seen many officers, charged, convicted, kicked out, some sent to jail as well.
Even in this small mico demographic of military service known as rally point I know of three former members that WERE officers who are no longer officers, members here and at least one is STILL in jail.

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Apr 11 at 2020 5:39 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Sat, 11 Apr 2020 05:39:40 -0400

How about RIP ward made 4 stars. Commanded AFRICOM. Got demoted to 3 stars. He was capped anyway

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Apr 11 at 2020 10:31 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Sat, 11 Apr 2020 10:31:48 -0400

Must be different from when I was still Active or Active Reserve. I have personally had three commanders relieved for cause, one on leadership, one was toxic and managed to piss everyone in the company off and one for conduct unbecoming.
The last two the action was the end of their careers, the first they moved to staff. I left the Brigade shortly after and lost track of him at that point. He was one of the smartest people I ever met, but he couldn't have led a Infantry Squad into a Strip Club. I think he had read too much Sun Tzu and should have been using FM 7-8.