Why does seniority trump merit, as it relates to career progression (even promotion)?

2016-05-13T15:07:58-04:00

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2016 3:09 PM

2016-05-13T15:09:59-04:00

It is the way it is sometimes. It is hard to gauge some things, especially on centralized boards.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made May 13 at 2016 3:30 PM

2016-05-13T15:30:48-04:00

I don't think it does for the SNCOs. I was selected twice in the secondary zone (SFC and SGM). I think it plays more into JNCOs and Junior Enlisted (especially PFC and SPC).

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made May 13 at 2016 7:50 PM

2016-05-13T19:50:25-04:00

Because we promote those in their window if they meet standards. Everyone gets promoted except those who could not meet the standards.

Response by SSG Randall P. made May 16 at 2016 5:58 PM

2016-05-16T17:58:03-04:00

I had a long answered typed out for this... Then I realized you would need to share a little more context.

Response by MSgt John McGowan made May 17 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-05-17T09:47:42-04:00

SPC I was promoted over several of my peers to the SNCO grade. Many took it well but some did not. You go with the most qualitifed. It funny how it works sometimes also. I ran into a SSgt I worked for as a A1c and I was at the time a TSgt. It was not a warn and fuzzy reunion.

Response by CPL James Zielinski made May 17 at 2016 9:49 AM

2016-05-17T09:49:06-04:00

because those who make those decisions are the beneficiaries of those decisions. The higher up you go, the more political it becomes. Just like everything else.

Response by Capt Joseph Olson made May 17 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-05-17T09:52:11-04:00

History. It has always been done thst way.

Response by FN Charlie Spivey made May 17 at 2016 9:53 AM

2016-05-17T09:53:35-04:00

Although I had two uncle that retired from the Army, one an E-7 and the other E-6, I never quite figured out haw they did that and can't reall speak to it. In The Coast Guard, and Navy, To get from E-2 to E-3, you have to take a course. Once you have completed that and passed it, then it is on to Practical factors. You get through that then you get promoted. Once you start on the NCO Ladder ( E-4 ) you select your rating - MOS ( this could well be at the convenience of the service rather than your personal choice ). You again take a course and have the practical factors. Once completed, then you take a Service wide exam. Depending on how well you score on that, will determine where you are placed on the list. There are other factors once you move into the NCO grades. One is Time in rate. Usually, to move up in the NCO rates, you need to have at least 1 yr. in your present rate, and 1 yr. Sea time. Any way you get put on the list. You could be #25 on the list, but there may be only 20 open billets. You will have to wait until a billet opens up in order to get promoted. Having said that, in my time there were rates that were so critical, they offered nice reinlistment bonuses and you could easily make E-7 in your first 4 year tour ( Electronics Technician comes to mind ). In short it was mostly based on test scores as well as Practical Factors ( how well you knew your job ). Senority didn't play that much part in it.

Response by LT Isaac Gordon made May 17 at 2016 11:45 AM

2016-05-17T11:45:06-04:00

The way it's supposed to work is that seniority (more accurately time in rank/grade?) and merit are both equally and independently important. Here's an example (albeit extreme). If I know an E-2, and an E-6, and the E-2 is clearly more intelligent, and maybe even a harder worker than the E-6, which one will I consider for promotion to E-7? You do have to recognize that there is a certain amount of merit that is earned by time in service, time in grade, and current rank. That's really what the military structure is all about, and without it, our system would fall apart. Taken to another extreme, why does seniority trump merit in determining who you salute? Is it fair? No, but we didn't sign up to be treated fairly. That said, compared to the civilian world, the military is one of the few places where your hard work really does pay off, and by and large you will eventually be recognized, respected, and promoted based on your merit. Work hard, and the seniority aspect will come with time.

Response by CW4 Abdulaziz Bulling made May 17 at 2016 12:01 PM

2016-05-17T12:01:34-04:00

If you decide to make the military a career you need to accept the good with the bad. I know many cases where soldiers could not get to the schools they needed to get promoted. Presently there are soldiers deployed that cannot get before the board because they have been pulled from scheduled WLC to deploy. That is a real disservice to the soldier, particularly if they are a SP4 doing the job of a SGT. It is my belief that there should be some flexibility built into the system so that highly motivated, MOS qualified individuals could be recognized and retained.

Response by Sgt John Ervin made May 17 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-05-17T12:51:52-04:00

The Air Force had a promotion system based on time in grade, APR's, Test results, awards (purple heart, merit for service, medal of honor etc), and slots available per AFSC.

It was possible if your scores were low, and your time in grade low to get promoted if the AFSC was lacking in upper ranks. The scores for some AFSC's to get promoted were VERY low when I was in. But VERY high in some career fields. It all depended on staffing. How many people vs how many slots for promotion were available. It also depended on the slot you were filling and if a promotable slot was available at your base. No slot and you might have to move to accept the promotion.

However if you were in a NORMAL career field, that was overstaffed, you could get a perfect score and have correct time in service and NOT get promoted. This actually happened at my first base - due to the perfect test score, he was promoted from SSGT to TSGT by squadron commander, then to MSGT by the base commander - in the same month.. But did not have a high enough points to be promoted normally.

In the Music career fields in the USAF it is fairly normal to make TSGT in under 4 years and MSGT in under 6 years. Merit promotions are very common based on performances.

Doing something highly unusual can get you promoted early also. Saving someone in a car accident, preventing a terrorist attack, saving someone outside the call of duty... any one of these can get you a stripe or a metal.

Response by LTC Mark Beattie made May 17 at 2016 12:54 PM

2016-05-17T12:54:14-04:00

Seniority only plays a part (time in grade) to get your records before promotion boards. Then merit kicks in. An organization as large as the Department of Defense requires structure to guide career development and promotions.

Response by SFC Dave Parker made May 17 at 2016 1:45 PM

2016-05-17T13:45:26-04:00

Seniority nearly always brings with it a lot of experience that you can't learn in a book. A 50 year old machinist is much more wise than some kid who just graduated college, even though the old machinist may not have a degree. The machinist has experience and wisdom. A board needs to take both into account when deciding promotions.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 2:27 PM

2016-05-17T14:27:32-04:00

This is true at the junior ranks. Even at the mid-ranks there is a TIS requirement. This is for a good reason. I don't want a SGT who hasn't had 3-5 years of experience as a trooper. Experience matters. I have to know that you've spent time in those positions AND that you understand the MOS before I put you in a leadership position. Until we have to instate the draft again, we aren't going to take recruits and make corporals out of them and make them SSG's in 2 years because they show potential. At more senior ranks, the TIS is still necessary, but the Army wide board process comes into play and merit takes over TIS (within the band going to the board).

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made May 17 at 2016 2:49 PM

2016-05-17T14:49:40-04:00

So I looked at your profile and I had your exact job in early 2007. The Army is kind of slow for young people. I felt like I was a PFC forever, because I had to wait 18 months. As a CPT having to wait six years I could only dream of it being 18 months. The promotion to SPC will come automatically and for some a little faster with a waiver, but once a SPC the real question is how long are you going to be a SPC. Have you gone to the promotion board? If not, why? Also for young Soldiers within a low density MOS there is a big difference between going to the board and being realistically promotable due to points. Get yourself the needed points, otherwise, the board isn't going to change much. The rank you wear on your chest does not dictate your character or intelligence. Within the military your rank does have a lot to do with time in service because of experience, but that isn't stopping you from going to school or doing other things to improve yourself. Do the best you can and talk to your CSM about this. You drive him around every day, so talk to him.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made May 17 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-05-17T17:52:35-04:00

It generally works time in grade in combination with merit. There are plenty of ways to get promoted meritoriously. You just have to go out and get it.

But if someone sucks and doesn't have bad paperwork on them you can't prove it.

Response by MSgt Duane Buck made May 17 at 2016 5:55 PM

2016-05-17T17:55:06-04:00

I'll offer another reason that a lot of people overlook. If you promote someone too early in their career, it can (and often does) block other members of the unit from being able to be promoted because of rank inversions or time in grade inversions. You need to keep the rank progression moving evenly, or else you stand the chance that people get frozen, causing several other issues in the process.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2016 11:22 PM

2016-05-17T23:22:03-04:00

I agree with the stuff already mentioned by COL Private RallyPoint Member and others. You will find, however that as you start to pass through the middle NCO ranks and gain experience as an NCO that these experiences are tracked through your NCOER as well as your academy school reports. These are some of the things that are looked at by senior leaders when deciding how and where to staff their unit leaders. In my experience, it often becomes the case where merit trumps seniority when you climb the career ladder past junior NCO. Just keep your head high, focus on excelling at your MOS and your military education and, more often then not, you will find yourself in a good place.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made May 18 at 2016 1:00 AM

2016-05-18T01:00:52-04:00

double post

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made May 18 at 2016 1:01 AM

2016-05-18T01:01:24-04:00

I have to go outside the original question. The Army fucked-up when they abandoned the higher Specialist rank structure. There are so many technical jobs in the army that do not require an NCO rank, it is not funny. Being able to be a supervisor is not a comparable skill to being able to look at a vehicle and fix it. Some can do both. Some of those some , do not want want to be bother with trying to shape up a BS private. They are more worried about if a piece of equipment works right. Until the army pulls its head out of its ass and goes back to having tech sergeant or tech specialist ranks , and leave the supervising to real sergeants/NCO's, rather than making every E-5 a "leader" ,the army will remain fucked.
Bring back Spc-5 -Spc-9. I know, I would have stayed if those ranks had been available.

Response by PV2 Glen Lewis made May 18 at 2016 12:49 PM

2016-05-18T12:49:15-04:00

Experience shows more advanced leadership qualities and commitment to a military career. Merit is important but it doesn't say you'll be there where it comes time to reenlist. I believe it also gives a subtle influence toward making the decision of a military a career to those undecided on whether or not to make it a career. In a volunteer system I think any influence toward that is very important.

Response by MSG Don Burt made May 20 at 2016 6:16 PM

2016-05-20T18:16:34-04:00

With "All Things Equal", you have to have a standard to follow and seniority, if is the last thing, then what else would you use...Patience my young friend, your time will come....everything comes to he who waits....grin and bear it for a while longer!

Response by MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow made May 23 at 2016 5:55 PM

2016-05-23T17:55:30-04:00

Usually with seniority comes experience, but not always. I never believed seniority should be the only reason for promotion. Merit needs to be considered also. I got in trouble appointing junior Airman to positions of authority over seniors several times. Then I was promoted ahead of one of my peers and it caused friction that resulted in the NCO being discharged. TIS will almost always come first.