Why do you believe certain people disregard advice or points of view because of rank?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:25:30 -0500

Something I'm sure many of us have come across at some point is someone senior disregarding advice or a different perspective from those of lower rank.

Now of course the obvious answer is experience, an E7 is going to know more than an E3. However, then we have to take into account different MOS', different units, different service/life experience.

I've had more than a few leaders say it's important to take into account the perspective of those around you, and those below you. You don't always follow what they say, but you take it into account. I also remember one saying for every Soldier that has a negative view on a decision, there are at least 10 more keeping quiet about it so always listen.

So what's your take on absorbing information or opinions from those around and below you?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 6 at 2022 9:41 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 21:41:26 -0500

So this one time, at Ft Hunter-Liggett..........you thought I was gonna say band camp, huh......

Anyway. So, one particular Annual Training event at Ft Hunter-Liggett, my Soldiers and I (Reservists) were sent to live/work on TAA Ward with 10th CSH. Not only were we to facilitate PM inspections of Ward itself, but also of the AO the CSH roped off. So, I sent my two Soldiers (both SPC and no right sleeve patch, I was a SGT at the time with a right sleeve patch at the time) to inspect the shower point the CSH had set up. My Soldiers came back a little bit later asking me to help them because the SGT running the shower point copped 'tude and blew them off with inspection findings and recommendations. So, I went over and conducted an inspection. My findings and recommendations matched my Soldiers. The SGT running the shower took everything I said and "Check Roger SGT" responded to me.

Now, that was the situation with an outside source. Internally, I have never blown off what my Troops have to say. I ask for, and appreciate, their advice and input. I can't have all the answers. They may have a better approach to something than what I may have.

Response by CWO4 Terrence Clark made Jan 6 at 2022 10:13 PM

CWO4 Terrence Clark — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 22:13:34 -0500

Put me in the same camp as those leaders described in your third para. It is a cliche but true nonetheless, that your troops make you. The more senior you become, the farther you are from the details of your responsibility. But they are literally elbow deep, and almost always see an alternative. Examples of this would require a page per day of an entire career. I am a certified welder, but my HT3 lays a bead out like a row of nickels. I am a qualified OOD, but I've had my BMOW check my rudder orders, I'm qualed on a 50cal, but my GM2 can clear a jam faster than me, and so on. As a leader your job is to get the best from your team. A team you are part of, not outside of. Their idea may not be THE idea, but is AN idea and is part of your info sifting before setting direction. Simultaneously, you must guard against the perception that your team is a democracy. I've seen lazy people in charge (as opposed to leaders) fall into a democracy of sorts because it is easy and popular, but is just waiting for a time when leadership is required to show them wanting. And I've often observed that those Chiefs and officers most unsure of their own leadership capabilities were those who were afraid to be seen taking advice/observations from those junior to them.

It doesn't change out here on "civvy street". Unions move in when management is weak and unresponsive. I've been point man in seven union avoidance campaigns. We were not successful in seven of seven because we listened to supervisors and managers, but because we got out on the floor, on every shift, and listened to the rank and file.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jan 6 at 2022 10:58 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Thu, 06 Jan 2022 22:58:54 -0500

All men are my teacher in that I may learn what to do, or what not to do by seeing their example.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Jan 7 at 2022 10:09 AM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Fri, 07 Jan 2022 10:09:00 -0500

Once upon a time, I was a PFC running a BN Ammo section (a SSG slot). The SGT (P) in the slot was away for school, so it was down to... me. I still showed Officers and NCOs the proper respect, but I acted as if I*was* the SSG. When I said things were a certain way, they *were* that way. When I said I expected X, Y, and Z, I expected X, Y, and Z. And my seniors (PSG/PL) backed me up, as long as I remained tactful and respectful.

So, part of it is speaking authoritatively. If you sound sure, people will believe you more readily. If you sound like you aren't sure of your solution yourself, others won't be, either.

One upon a time I was a SFC running a platoon with Soldiers in every conceivable MOS within a combat BDE. At this point I had around 15 years TIS, 3 combat deployments, served in around 13,254 different duty positions, and seen quite a bit. When Soldiers came to me with idiotic solutions, I told them their solution was idiotic. When they came to me with solutions that sounded valid but had already failed, I explained the experience of failure and why their solution would not work. When they came to me with solutions which *might* work but were not going to be implemented for one reason or another, I would explain that their solution might work, but was not being implemented for whatever reason. And when Soldiers came to me with unique solutions to actual problems, I would let them try out their solution on a small scale as a proof of concept.

But a LARGE portion of those solutions were rejected almost instantly because of experience, or because what seemed like a good solution at the SPC level really was not because of things they just did not have perspective or even knowledge of (higher echelon plans, how it would affect other sections, etc.). Now a good leader, when (s)he has time, will explain this to the Soldier. Even if you reject 99 bad ideas, you still want the Soldier to be willing to come to you with the 100th. Cuz the 100th is gonna be a doozy.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2022 1:38 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Jan 2022 13:38:13 -0500

"Rank" as is were in my view is intended to keep the system working. Culture and Hollywood have sensationalized "rank and bling". We as a collective tend to forget that.

Just about everyone here has their job limited by regulations. If you are not in a position to WRITE the regulations your left and right limits are governed them. In my example the social perception of me being a CPT now is oblivious to the fact that while I was a 1LT in a Commander role I had vastly more responsibility and authority.

So what I'm getting at is many out there in our ranks, and the uneducated public outside our ranks forget that our jobs are limited to our lanes of our MOS/Branch, and that our Ranks dictate the limitations of our responsibilities within those billets we fill that we are trained to execute.

The purpose of RANKS is to maintain discipline throughout the system. The system is designed to do a job (not the best job) in accordance with regulations that have evolved over time to be "good enough" for known and historic situations PROVIDING that everyone stays in their lanes and respects everyone according to their rank.

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We forget, that an HR E5's opinion on a topic of personnel admin paperwork is far more useful than a 10 year CPT's opinion on the matter who is a Chemical Officer who never held a company command.

I see this also with some of my civilian associates. Folks who are in the defense industry who are now civilian peers still cluster among themselves according to their service rank paths (Officers Vs NCO's)

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There is nothing more dangerous to an arrogant Officer than a SPC who knows the regulations, who also stays within the SPC's lane, but maneuvers through the regulations like a Legal Ninja.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 7 at 2022 1:52 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Jan 2022 13:52:09 -0500

Great leaders listen to everyone’s perspective and formulate their own decisions based on what they’ve collected. I’ve gamed planned with NCOs and 10 levels and a lot of the time I’ve gotten better COAs from 10 levels, for the simple fact that they’re not approaching situations with blinders on…nor are they trying to tell me what they think I want to hear. A great idea or suggestion can come from anywhere.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 7 at 2022 4:12 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 07 Jan 2022 16:12:41 -0500

look you ask a question in an open forum from folks with different careers/experiences, time frames, and Units. I was a grunt in fairly hard-charging units- my take on life is much different from a tech in a laid-back unit, I have strong opinions on whinnying, crying, discipline. Folks wanting to have a sit-down and sing Kumbaya don't need my advice nor like it. We have lost the ability to listen to folks make their case and not accept it politely, instead, they shoot their mouth off belligerently with an attitude. In my day you use to ask a question and didn't like the answers good manners said- Thank them and move on w/o taking the advice.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2022 3:19 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:19:01 -0500

You've got to listen to everyone. Anyone that I would be supervising, when they checked in PCS or TDY, whatever rank, I would make a statement such as the following: If you see anything that you think is unsafe, or you think that there is a better way to do the work process, let me know. It is always good for a fresh set of eyes to look at things. Just because someone's an E-2 does not mean that they can't notice something important or have a great idea.