Why do we struggle with transition back to the civilian sector? We are masters of adapt and overcome, why don't we apply our skill sets?

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:25:30 -0500

Why do we think we need to change, to try to become a civilian again? There is no process that will undo what we have volunteered to become.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Dec 27 at 2015 11:42 AM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:42:05 -0500

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen You train to fit into the military, then having been fully embedded in that military; re-training allows you to fit into civy side with a different tempo, language and concern about mission completion.

What a beautiful photo of a real parade!

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 2:24 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:24:53 -0500

The values that you learned in the military, discipline, honor, teamwork, do not need to change. Most civilians do not understand military language or customs. so do not refer to the bathroom as a head. or when a civilian asks for the time, do not say it is 1500. Minor adjustments will help, but your core values do not need to change. This is who you are now, for the rest of your life.

Response by CPO Andy Carrillo, MS made Dec 27 at 2015 2:28 PM

CPO Andy Carrillo, MS — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:28:17 -0500

It is called institutionalization. We are creatures of habit and when we love our habit change becomes a stressor we tend to fight or avoid.

Response by SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury made Dec 27 at 2015 2:32 PM

SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:32:35 -0500

I think part of it is going from the heightened sense of situational awareness to the mundane life in garrison. There is a go - then a stop. No cool down like on a strenuous workout. You get amped up to go, you go and do the task at hand, then all of a sudden you're back at home like nothing ever happened. Even the best return and reunion programs available don't counter that. I mean, you spend nearly 6-12 months working up for a deployment then get maybe 2-3 weeks at best to adjust to being home. That is tough. With the arrival of millennials to the ranks it makes it tougher. What worked for us won't work for them.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 5:18 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:18:13 -0500

The thing with bring in the military is that we are so accustomed to being told what to do that we panic when given a choice. Making decisions for oneself is very stressful. Let's be real, in the military you can almost guess what you are going to do every single day: formations with time and uniform, dfac with time and location, and a place to stay. In the civilian world, there are plenty of unknown unknowns: stuff that you don't know that you don't know. On top of this, most military people are antisocial and don't deal well with talking anything but military--let's face fact, most of us couldn't go to a social function with the elites.

That's my opinion

Response by SGT Chris Hill made Dec 27 at 2015 5:47 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:47:26 -0500

I just transitioned recently, last tuesday was my first day transitioning. So far it seems pretty amazing to be out, especially since my transition leave began right before christmas. I now live in Colorado Springs which is a major military city, I see people in uniform all over and I now think back to the difference in perspective from before I joined to now, before I was anxious to join and serve, now I am thankful that I served and appreciate my experiences.

For me, I don't believe it's hard transitioning, although everyone has their own stories. I do, however, constantly think about my previous 10 years in the army and I still think I'm going back once my leave is up. I still check my phone for texts/phone calls, I still think about the daily army life I just left... I have to say it's still an amazing feeling!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Dec 27 at 2015 5:52 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:52:42 -0500

The first time we "adapt" to a massive culture change, it is with the full weight of the military controlling every aspect of the process. It's "Forced Evolution." It happens Communally.

The second time we do it, we do it we do it "alone" in comparison.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 9:07 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 21:07:17 -0500

We are masters of "Adapt and overcome," for BIG things - like life and death crap. For civilians, they can't even fathom what we've seen and done and what kind of decisions we've had to make. An "earth-shattering" or "life ending" problem to them is that someone didn't respond to one of their texts or the local shop no longer carries their chosen brand of (insert product here).

We.

Can't.

Relate.

The huge majority of us served with folks that wanted to be there, and didn't have to deal with things like cliques and office politics - which are rampant on the outside. Our orders and standards have almost always been clear-cut, and on the outside communication is muddled if it exists at all - and there are WAY too many "Get me a rock," taskings (ooh, wrong size. Ooh, wrong shape... ooh, wrong color... and no actual description, just repeated "failures" on our part). We aren't used to that.

When a new person showed up at their unit - and they were an inter-service transfer - did you expect them to suddenly adopt your service's lingo and practices and traditions, or continue as they had in their old branch? Of COURSE you demanded they integrate! Well, you were integrated into the military - and when done, it's time to integrate back into the civilian world.

Some do it better than others.

And, others can't even.

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made Dec 27 at 2015 11:06 PM

CPL Jay Freeman — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:06:46 -0500

Transition is hard. The get in get it done attitude we got in the military doesn't work for civilians they want to drag there feet in joy that hourly pay bs and so on.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2015 11:23 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Dec 2015 23:23:27 -0500

i had the issue because no one knew where i was coming from, people just didn't get it. but you tell me to flank a position or something new i wouldnt an issue dealing with that change. but living in the big world is so much different. it took me years, and i still struggle.

Response by Capt Brandon Charters made Dec 28 at 2015 12:10 AM

Capt Brandon Charters — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 00:10:40 -0500

Great question SPC Rory J. Mattheisen. The struggles that most of us face, are usually in the very first phase of transition. Many of us leave the military with little or no professional network on the civilian side and have a hard time landing that first role.

The 'adapt and overcome’ skill we possess, has led to many successful veteran careers and it’s exactly why so many companies and universities hire veterans. They know you need some time to spin up, but once you’re ‘operational’, you are a huge asset within any organization. A few veterans that I know of personally, who have excelled after their transition: SrA Andrew McCarty MAJ George Hamilton Capt Mark Perrault Brig Gen John Michel COL Sid McManus LTC Paul Turevon LTC Chad Storlie LTC Jason Strickland LCDR Mike Roshaven MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member Capt Felix Marrero Capt Mario Mangiameli PO3 John Aldrich Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member
They may have additional advice to offer.

Response by SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS made Dec 28 at 2015 7:33 AM

SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 07:33:25 -0500

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen, I am going to approach your question from one perspective conflict resolution. We are trained to approach conflict resolution methodologically applying each tier of possible resolutions to resolve the conflict. In most situations in garrison and in most all cases in combat duty we work for a common goal. We may steal each other thunder to get credit for the solution in most cases. We in the military are trained to work in small and large groups recognizing the rank structure we swore to obey in legal good ethics.

In my opinion, civilians do not approach workplace conflict from this perspective. I took a part time job at a hardware store prior to retiring a few years ago. I went in there thinking the boss is going to be assertive or automatically respected. I had a difficult time not jumping on some of lazy attitudes I observed. On one occasion decided to keep working when they wanted to jaw jack and he haw around when the boss left the store. I also told some of them we need to get this work done so lets get to moving. Some looked at me like I was being a suck up. I did not care no one was going to call me lazy. They did not care about their professional image dependability. We have those in the military true. We can deal with them but in a situation where the boss drinks and goes to ball games nothing happens.

So now you are frustrated. Perhaps I am the only guy, but I struggle with frustration and not getting overly frustration with stupidity. The way we express the frustration will not always bode well in the civilian workplace.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 10:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:36:04 -0500

2 different worlds

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Dec 29 at 2015 6:08 AM

Maj Kim Patterson — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 06:08:49 -0500

I believe the problem lies in the responsibility, drive, crucial decision making and dealing with millions of dollars worth of equipment as part of your everyday activity. The military has trusted you (us) with expensive training and equipment and we mostly thrive in that atmosphere. When you come home to transition, the civilians just don't understand the depth and breadth of your responsibilities while serving our country. Hiring managers get tons of applications, some might consider you a risk for battle fatigue, many skills don't transfer well on paper. Upon arrival home, the jobs that allow you to function at that max level are filled and jobs available are serving drinks at McDonald's for example. Prestige, respect, confidence get packed away with your other memorabilia. Starting back at the bottom of the job chain just sucks. I wish I had a more encouraging comment but that's the way I see it for the time being.

Response by SGT Kristin Myers made Dec 29 at 2015 8:07 AM

SGT Kristin Myers — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:07:21 -0500

Because the civilian world doesn't know how to deal with our discipline and mindset. And we don't know how to get our point across or how to correct someone in the civilian world. It's challenging to go from NCO to no one and attempt to discipline someone.

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made Dec 29 at 2015 8:19 AM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:19:12 -0500

My own personal challenge was trust. In the military, I had developed a sense of teamwork and trust in my peers, superiors, and subordinates. I had confidence they would do the right thing for the organization (in this case, the Air Force and the US), and I was only once proven wrong, in 26 years. Once out, working for large defense contractors, I continued to trust my peers, superiors and subordinates, not realizing it was no longer about the organization but it was every man/woman/dog for him/her/itself. The intra-company and intra-office competition drove cut-throat behavior, including stealing ideas and proposing your ideas as their own. Be ready for competition from every side, and do not give away your intellectual property thinking it will be for the good of all. Demonstrate your value to the company, cooperate and be friendly, but watch your 6.

Response by PO1 Andrew White made Dec 29 at 2015 8:28 AM

PO1 Andrew White — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:28:24 -0500

Some of us do (apply our skill sets) and some don't as the job itself may not transfer over to a civilian equivalent, although whatever attributes it took to do your job in the military ought to be applied to doing just about everything in life to some degree of success.
Someone earlier mentioned "civilianizing" your resume and job description, Transition Assistance Programs/Family Service Centers have folks that will assist with that and it is key. Also, getting the civilian equivalent certifications. I can go on at length on this as I was an FAA licensed airline mechanic prior to coming back into the Navy (split tour/career; 10 years in, got out for 3, recalled back in post 9/11 and finished up the 20). I had a binder on my desk with everything you needed to know/do to get an FAA Airframe & Powerplant license (A&P)...that's a job in your pocket for life. I had exactly ONE guy ever come and talk to me and get it done. I get it, you just spent 3 or 4 years busting your knuckles on airplanes, why do you want to do it when you're out?! I dunno, a job while you're going to school? Because there are other fields of work were having the FAA license is a requirement? Senior Enlisted guys thinking they could roll out and into an airline management job based on their experience...yeah that helps but where's your A&P? It looks good on a resume...for any job? you just spent a good few years of your life applying a skill set, you should walk away with something for it.
For sometime there was a program that the FAA was trying to establish with the military to allow FAA instructors to come in and give guys their A&P practical exams but I think that died on the vine somewhere.
Again, having been on both sides of the fence (civilian work force and then back into the military), getting out the second time was not intimidating. Most of us have been through challenges far beyond what civilian life will ever throw at you. Its about having the confidence to approach any job and think "What? I can do this! It's not like I got an engine on fire and I'm 800 miles off the coast of Africa at 25,000 feet!"...or what ever motivates you...lol
And don't forget...the best time to look for a job, is when you have a job!

Response by SSG Raymond Whitener made Dec 29 at 2015 8:49 AM

SSG Raymond Whitener — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:49:51 -0500

There's a lot of pre-conceptions and misunderstandings coming out of the military. For one, if the military isn't that n a high presence location such as Dallas, the civilians that are hiring have no idea of the difference between CSM and PFC, which can be a huge ego slam in the face.
A lot of our jobs do translate to Civilian workforce occupations but you still have to get the civilian certificates or degree to make yourself more marketable, I.e. ASE certified mechanic, HVAC certified, construction management degree, A+,Cisco, Security, and Server Administration.
Networking, which all of us have had to do across small and large organizations can have a huge impact on finding and keeping the niche job that you want as well

Response by SSG John Caples made Dec 29 at 2015 9:00 AM

SSG John Caples — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:00:14 -0500

Civilian world is a whole lot different to live in,

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Dec 29 at 2015 12:49 PM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:49:29 -0500

Because we have be ome accustomed to living in a world where failure has direct, almost immediate consequences. Civilians tolerate incompetence for some reason. There is an expectation that although your contribution to the company will be challenging, and involving your pay won't reflect that committment. It's hard to reintegrate when there is committment only coming from you. The people around have very little concept of team work, honor, duty, integrity and that breeds a very hostile work environment for a Veteran. We may not have cornered the market on working as a team, but the 'team concept' from the civilian mindset where the lower employees do all the heavy lifting, and the higher ups take all the credit for a job completed rubs the wrong way. Just my two cents, after having worked in the civilian force following retirement.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 2:02 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:02:40 -0500

I think it is our perspective. In the military, we built each other up. We had the same culture and develop strong ties. In civilian life, that support structure is gone for the most part. Businesses and organizations are more interested in how they can profit from your skills. The ties start off weaker in business, so you have to learn a new system fast and then apply a new set of skills like written communications, marketable business skills like programming, and learn to talk a new language. I think ACAP did a good job, but a lot of troops do not plan well and often suffer a lot of needless pain in their transition.

Response by PO3 Thomas Dickey made Dec 29 at 2015 2:34 PM

PO3 Thomas Dickey — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:34:11 -0500

Based on my own personal experience, our greatest problems come from the fact that civilian life has no organizational structure and no clear, if any, chain of command. It's every man for himself and a complete resistance to teamwork. This is something that, for us, is simply unacceptable. We are used to being part of a functional unit, operating within something larger than our individual selves. The civilian sector has no such environment, making it impossible for us to adapt.

Response by Cpl Clayton Poff made Dec 29 at 2015 3:32 PM

Cpl Clayton Poff — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:32:38 -0500

MSgt Mikulski hit the nail on the head.... once your out it is start over, here is what I discovered after long time that I wish I would have incorporated immediately after getting out. USE your discipline and training to make plans to reach goals!!!!. OSMEAC I us it everyday, take every challenge like taking the "Hill" , Profit is the tie that binds so figure out how you can best profit your employer no matter who it is, if in school how can I make the best grades. We are veterans of the greatest fighting force ever... we do not wine, we win.., learn from great examples like King David to Fred Smith, they where veterans who built empires.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 3:41 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:41:18 -0500

I think there is a myriad of reasons. Having so may different personalities, perhaps just because someone made it through an enlistment obligation, doesn't mean that they have adapted, overcame and/or improvised - aka skated or were under the radar the whole time. In addition, they may have not enjoyed or been cut out for it, hence separating after their first enlistment (some sooner). Add stress, issues and traumas, I don't think personally that there could be a formula for a standardized way to transition or answer as to why..... Hopefully others here could shed some more constructive light on this matter.

This is such a broad topic, that I'm not sure where we would even begin...... My conclusion is that we should be able to "change" and become whatever, to successfully integrate into a civilian society, but everyone has a different story and reasons why... maybe they don't want to, can't or don't know how?

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Dec 29 at 2015 4:50 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:50:11 -0500

There are a myriad of reasons. A big one is we are no longer part of a team that has each other's back. Another one is our perspectives can be much greater than some pretty narrow ones I encountered. We also do not do stupid well. I got tired of getting fired, so I started my own business. And, if we have medical or emotional areas that we must take care of, our situations can be much more difficult. especially if our NBC exposures are hurting us and limiting our productivity. Finally, coming "home" can be pretty scary, from feeling estranged from families and friends. difficulty finding work, and not being able to comprehend and adapt to very selfish behaviors.

Good luck, find good groups, don't be afraid to ask for help, even if it is someone to be a mentor. Remember you have over 20 million brothers and sisters.

Response by Sgt Carol Grisham made Dec 29 at 2015 6:08 PM

Sgt Carol Grisham — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 18:08:02 -0500

When I tried to apply my skill set to civilian life there was a lot of backlash, mostly dealing with the idea that my requiring people I was placed in charge of to actually do their jobs and follow instructions was "too militaristic" and I should not expect anyone to be responsible for their work product (but that I'd still be held responsible for the overall project's completion).

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 9:11 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:11:40 -0500

We struggle because we move from a place of security, standards and rules/laws to an environment without stability, responsibility and a sense of fairness. However, we have opportunities because often our worst day as a civilian is nothing compared to our easiest day in uniform. When things get tough after transition, then reach out to your network, don't sweat the small stuff and consider the long game. Our goal is to become invisible in the crowd.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 30 at 2015 12:41 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:41:06 -0500

It is just like college graduates ....it take time for them to realize they are no longer in the college ... (no disrespect ....)

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Dec 30 at 2015 3:29 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 15:29:17 -0500

Can someone compare and contrast military thinking with corporate thinking?

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Dec 30 at 2015 6:47 PM

Capt Mark Strobl — Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:47:53 -0500

SPC Rory J. Mattheisen - Might have something to do with "operating in our element." While in uniform, we were surrounded by people who wore the same clothes, ate the same chow, and held the same values, etc. One transitions into the civilian world --only to find that, for the most part, few can work under a collective ethos. In the military, we look out for each other, lend a helping hand, and generally think outwardly. Hard to do this in the civilian world... Everybody dresses differently, has their own lingo, and looks out for themselves.

Response by MAJ Scott Meehan made Jan 7 at 2016 2:29 PM

MAJ Scott Meehan — Thu, 07 Jan 2016 14:29:20 -0500

There is no overcoming the age factor. Corporations are simply looking towards the younger generation for their future.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made Jan 14 at 2016 11:52 AM

SGT Craig Northacker — Thu, 14 Jan 2016 11:52:02 -0500

I have been out for decades. The civilian world has a different set of ethics than we do. We are about teamwork - they do lip service to team work. They talk about family - that is a matter of convenience for them to try to get as much work as they can for as little as possible. We are mission oriented - many on the other side are not. We are lied to quite a bit, and there is very little accountability that enables us to stand up to it. I got tired of getting fired and started my own business. I was a CPA with my own practice, and the mentalities tend to have blinders on and only be concerned with short term results. Fighting that mentality, because they do not understand what we bring to the table, is a daunting task. At best we are only tolerated. If we suck it up and don't talk about it we are looked at as loners. I can give you my observations - we all must adapt and overcome. That is why I set up Vets-Help - to help ease that transition. The amount of stupidity, greed, and incompetence in government I have to overcome has been astronomical.

I do not have great mobility any more, and I have a lot of medical appointments I have to keep every year. Despite knowing that, there are a lot who try to exploit it for their own purposes without wanting to help our mission to support our military, vets and their families. They are surprised when I do not go away. I am an old grunt, an NCO, so anyone who messes with me being able to take care of my charges gets the full fury that we use when ambushed. Good luck in your pursuits. We expect to finally open our facilities very soon - look us up to see if we can help.

Response by SSgt Boyd Welch made Jan 14 at 2016 2:16 PM

SSgt Boyd Welch — Thu, 14 Jan 2016 14:16:49 -0500

As a former military member who had seen combat early in my military career, I've made it a priority to helping vets transitioning to the private sector. What I do see a in lot of new hires, is difficulty adapting to systems with less structure and lack of forms and guidance. I spend time having to counsel and coach people with service related mental health issues especially those that had a "fast, ops tempo" and they begin thinking their supervisor or co-worker is the enemy. I will always do my utmost to help those that served but they have to realize that the two work environments are not the same....

Response by Wayne Soares made Nov 7 at 2020 4:57 PM

Wayne Soares — Sat, 07 Nov 2020 16:57:59 -0500

Thanks for the share brother Rory