Why do units have issues with keeping soldiers late at work while not doing anything?

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:35:43 -0500

This stereotype seems to be true still in today's conventional army.
Curious as to why Units have issues with always staying late at work and not doing anything

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 5:43 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:43:55 -0500

24/7, get your “job”done...you won’t stay late

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Feb 20 at 2020 5:52 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:52:17 -0500

There is a lot missing here. How late, what is the unit mission at the time. Is it that there was a command requirement not met?

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Feb 20 at 2020 5:53 AM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 05:53:18 -0500

I always used the "train to standard not to time" mentality. Many days I would release my platoon early. Rarely did I keep them past 1700 unless we had to do something that really required us to stay late.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Feb 20 at 2020 7:27 AM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 07:27:23 -0500

Units being held past their normal release time has most likely been going on since the Roman legions, while there are many good reasons to keep a unit later, important info that needs to be distributed, last Sensitive item not accounted for, changes in start time for the next work day, required issues not taken care of during the duty day etc, etc. There are far more example of poor leadership either forgetting there are troops sitting down at units waiting to be released to eat, see their loved ones, take care of important purchase that need to be done before places close. How many times have First line leaders sat through speeches /Death by power point/ a Pet Peeve debate and assorted other "I LIKE TO HEAR MY VOICE" Oxygen depletion sessions. Some "leaders" either through purposeful acts or because they get distracted have troops standing by only to be told regular 1st call, PT, vehicle and weapons PMCS which creates poor morale when done consistently. Maybe as the leaders go up through the ranks and work longer days they forget the troops with get their long days down the line when the get more rank. As a PSG I had to be in the Barracks no later than 0500 and many times long after the Troops were released I was in meetings at 1900-2000 about nothing only to return at 0500, This along with weekend/Holliday visits to the Barracks to check on the young's to make sure they take out the trash, don't burn the Barracks down or declare war on a neighboring company involving start clusters, grenade sims and assorted pyro and rifles.
My belief was that Troops will always work long days due the the nature of their jobs so there is no reason to make them stay for "NOTHING" as they will already be staying for "SOMETHING" down the line.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 8:17 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:17:58 -0500

once had a company CO that had us "dress right dress" all the vehicles in the motor pool using string line and tape measures as an excuse to keep us late.

Response by CW4 Anthoney Lowry made Feb 20 at 2020 8:18 AM

CW4 Anthoney Lowry — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:18:50 -0500

i had a company commander 1 time tell the entire company full of warrant officers, NCOs, and soldiers that "if only everyone would work like him, we could get so much more accomplished" he was the guy who stayed till 9-10 at night, would work the weekends sitting in his office on his computer, no family life whatsoever. but he made it to full bird before he retired...

Response by LTC John Griscom made Feb 20 at 2020 9:02 AM

LTC John Griscom — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:02:10 -0500

My policy was if you have nothing to do, do it somewhere else. There would be times for long hours, but only if required.

Response by MAJ Ronnie Reams made Feb 20 at 2020 9:06 AM

MAJ Ronnie Reams — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:06:53 -0500

Hurry up and wait is a time honored tradition in the Army. However, I think that at Retreat formation, if there is a need to stay and work later in the evening, that should be announced. Troops can go to mess hall and chow down and then go to barracks and chill until the later work call. Is there such a thing as quitting time in the new Army?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 9:09 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:09:50 -0500

I'll be honest.
I always found it way more grating to have an impossibly early report time than I did having to stay late to accomplish some task or another. If you can't hit SP, you haven't trained and/or planned enough.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 9:26 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:26:16 -0500

I was in a reserve unit like that, especially for NCO's. NCO's showed up at 0430, but we actually had nothing to do until first formation when the rest of the company showed up at 0700. sign out typically was 04:30 but NCO's usually stayed until 19:00 hours. I don't mind coming in or staying late if we need to but it seemed we just stood around waiting most of that time doing nothing, just a standing order from the commander.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Feb 20 at 2020 9:34 AM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:34:20 -0500

Just an opinion. In today's military, leaders at all levels are held more accountable for the behavior of their charges. Therefore, the less "free time" the troops have, the less opportunity to make poor choices.

Response by CSM Danny S. made Feb 20 at 2020 10:34 AM

CSM Danny S. — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 10:34:02 -0500

There can be a lot of reasons to stay late and you may not see them. I personally can't stand to stay but I will and what is late. My work doesn't end with the duty day. Sometimes it is about showing that tasks will be completed to standard or to a time schedule depending on the task. The one thing soldiers hate is taking their free time. Now with that being said I usually only keep the group that is delinquent or responsible for the issue. Sometimes working late is directed by higher to complete something that should of been given out weeks ago but needs to be done now. So the bulk of this comes from someone not doing their job or a planning failure at some level. It's a soup sandwich and we all get to take a bite.

Response by CPO Clifford Henry made Feb 20 at 2020 11:26 AM

CPO Clifford Henry — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 11:26:25 -0500

99% of the time it’s a power trip and nothing more. They do it because they can..

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Feb 20 at 2020 12:04 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:04:24 -0500

Only had one unit like that and then only through one Commander. The rest were pretty squared away and as long as there wasn't any ERC -a equipment down with parts on hand we were off by 1700. Of course if we had ranges or construction missions we stayed until stuff on the schedule was complete and equipment clean.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 12:24 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:24:53 -0500

the same reason PVT snuffy shows up at 0300 for a 0800 mission. BC tells XO 0800. Not wanting people to be late, XO tells Company COs 0700. CO tells 1SG 0600 for the same reason. 1SG tells PSGs 0500. PSG tells squad leader 0400 and squad leader tells PVT Snuffy 0300. Then BC arrives at 0745 and wonders why everyone is already pissed off because they've been sitting around doing nothing for 5 hours.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 12:44 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 12:44:26 -0500

what always killed me as a lower enlisted in the guard was we'd sit around all weekend doing nothing and then suddenly at 1500 on Sunday afternoon there was all this shit, that we could have been doing all day Saturday and Sunday morning, that absolutely had to get done before we could be released. And you always knew that leadership knew about that shit beforehand. It's not like higher just dropped it on them last minute. They just sat on it until Sunday afternoon so they'd have an excuse to keep you late.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 1:32 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:32:41 -0500

When I was a Commander I frequently released our E4 and below while the rest of us completed our tasks. NCOERs, Counselings, etc. still needed to get done, but I didn't need PFC Snuffy there to do it. Why some Commanders feel the need to do as you describe I'm not really sure. Most likely it's what's called "shared misery." Or in other words, some of us have to be here so all of us have to be here. The only caveat I would offer is this: If you get let out early you don't really have grounds to complain if you're recalled due to an unforeseen circumstance.

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Feb 20 at 2020 1:43 PM

SPC Rob Lewis — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:43:05 -0500

It's not a 9-5 job...Between embracing the suck , Hurry up and wait, O-dark 30 is the place most of us found our self with not a clue as to WTF.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2020 1:44 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:44:22 -0500

I'm in the Air Force, I don't understand the question.

Response by SFC Benjamin Varlese made Feb 20 at 2020 1:55 PM

SFC Benjamin Varlese — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 13:55:19 -0500

I generally abhor statements like “to standard not to time” because it means a unit or it’s leadership needs to reevaluate its time management capabilities. Backwards planning and time hacks can do a lot to prevent soldiers from staying late. That being said, soldiers are notoriously bad at taking care of implied tasks necessary to meet those benchmarks and often do not use their white space effectively; leadership too in the case of the latter. We all understand there are last minute suspenses that come down (because upper echelons similarly failed in their planning process or meet their own time hacks) but a lot of the wasted time and late nights could be avoided through better application of the 5 Ps and the 5th principle of patrolling

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 20 at 2020 2:42 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 14:42:27 -0500

You do understand that sometimes, the CoC decides to hold an O call or supervisors call at like 1600, particularity at BN/Bde. So what there is a major change in the works for tomorrow- many units will hold the troops to get the word out, only to find it was a bitch session, but too late. Hard call for the CoC.I always worked my troops till the job was done or a point were I thought it was no longer productive. You are not paid for 8 hr days, and 1700 is a guide line only. Want to go home at 1700- join the USAF they have mandatory crew rest for some of their MOS's, or the USN which works purely shifts at sea.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Feb 20 at 2020 4:50 PM

SFC Stephen P. — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:50:39 -0500

From a market perspective, it is the result of a 3rd party payer.
The dismissing authority pays exactly the same ($0) if the employees are released early or late.

As all soldiers are salaried and ineligible for overtime, there is no push from higher to reduce labor costs.

The unpredictable nature of the military duty day (probably resultant from the near absolute authority granted to commanders) gives subordinate leaders incentive to keep staff on hand to deal with contingencies.

The only reason you would dismiss early is to maintain morale; it's a shame how many leaders undervalue morale.

Response by SPC Richard Zacke made Feb 20 at 2020 10:17 PM

SPC Richard Zacke — Thu, 20 Feb 2020 22:17:22 -0500

SSG Private RallyPoint Member isn't that where the saying "Hurry up and wait!!" came from?

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Feb 21 at 2020 2:51 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Fri, 21 Feb 2020 14:51:24 -0500

It is simply piss poor leadership. Leaders (?) who are more concerned about how it may look than the morale of their troops. There will be enough times when we will really need to work extra hours. Take advantage when the opportunity arises to sound the liberty bell and get your guys out early.
I used to love to play "last person to the door has to stay until 1600."

Response by LTJG Stephanie Thompson made Feb 21 at 2020 7:34 PM

LTJG Stephanie Thompson — Fri, 21 Feb 2020 19:34:53 -0500

Oh, the woes of "hurry up and wait," among others. It seems to me that this happens frequently due to a lack of organization and confidence on behalf of the person in charge. That person is generally not organized, so either didn't give everyone a complete list of the day's tasks, or doesn't actually know what should be done. They don't want to get caught later by their own superiors with a question they can't personally answer (lack of confidence), so they keep everybody on "standby" with no direction of what to stand by for or how to be productive in the interim. They don't feel they can leave until later, so as not to look like a skater, and feel it will reflect negatively on them if they let their people go early, regardless of whether they actually have work to do.

This is frustrating for everybody, including the person(s) responsible for the mess. They want to be able to report that the day's work got done in so timely a manner that they were able to let everybody go home early (or even just on time), but they either don't really know what work needs to be done or don't know what it looks like when it IS done, so the workers end up languishing the hours away. The triad (within the division, for instance) is not communicating with one another, but instead talks about each others incompetencies behind each other's back, never acknowledging that all three play a role in how the division is run and how it affects each junior servicemember. The people in charge are not taking responsibility and so the cycle continues.

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Feb 22 at 2020 2:43 AM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Sat, 22 Feb 2020 02:43:42 -0500

I served from 1987 - 2012. I remember late evenings at DIVARTY not tooo far from Custer Hill, 1ID where my 1SG would have the HQ Company there on a Friday night til 2000hrs doing ash and trash detail work. As a lowly clerk sent over from 1ID G3 to help fill the pool ---I relished the fact that I got to work with the men even though it was buffing floors, filing paperwork, even on Friday, listening to ash-trash crap from haggard old turds. That's the Peacetime Army. Been that way since there's been Army's. Maybe I am to salty. Maybe I just miss being useful. Maybe I just miss buffing floors. LOL.

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Feb 23 at 2020 4:56 PM

MSG Allan Davis — Sun, 23 Feb 2020 16:56:44 -0500

Train to the standard not to the hour

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Feb 27 at 2020 2:51 PM

SFC Casey O'Mally — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:51:03 -0500

There is a very serious problem with the tasking cycle. The folks in the 3 shop push out a tasker late, and everyone suffers. Most of the time it is because THEY got the tasker late.
I spent a little bit of time in a 2-star G3 writing daily FRAGOs. Our CG's policy was that the daily FRAGO went out NLT 1500. Period. If the 3-star Command above us sent out something after 1400, it waited until tomorrow.
Unless it was a SIMPLE data pull (How many Soldiers do you have? What is your current barracks space? Etc.) Or a meeting tasker, all taskings had a MINIMUM of 3 day suspenses. Those that actually required thought and/or production had a minimum of 7 days. And we had FULL authority to kick back 3-star taskings and refuse to do them if the 3-star G3 didn't give us those suspenses +1 day (4 days and 8 days). We tried our hardest to prevent the "somebody has to stay late" and the "jump through your 4th point" taskers. We mostly succeeded. But ONLY because it was an expectation set by the CG and he was willing to go to bat for us against his boss. If we didn't have his support, it would have never worked.
Sometimes, the solution HAS to start at the top.

Response by 1SG Joseph Dartey made Mar 17 at 2020 2:36 PM

1SG Joseph Dartey — Tue, 17 Mar 2020 14:36:10 -0400

I remember those days. When I was a GS Maintenance Support Supervisor (E-8 Master Sergeant) I released my soldiers to go home with the understanding that they are subject to recall at a moments notice and if they came back smelling of alcohol or they were impaired in any way, I would smoke them like a bad cigar. The E-7 PLT SGT told the 1SG, who came to my maintenance shop and wanted to know where all the soldiers were. I told him, and he said recall them and let's see how long it takes them to get here. 10 minutes later I had a full formation, no one was impaired or smelled of alcohol and were in full uniform. Got my butt chewed, but had the respect of my soldiers by showing them that I would take the heat.

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Mar 23 at 2020 9:01 AM

SFC Mark Klaers — Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:01:08 -0400

The mentality of just about every unit I served with was "We better keep the troops here until the last minute in case something comes up". And of course, because every other unit was gone, we were always tasked because "something always comes up".

Response by SPC Clayton Ellzey made Apr 9 at 2020 12:26 PM

SPC Clayton Ellzey — Thu, 09 Apr 2020 12:26:43 -0400

Kinda like wake up eat chow and draw weapons an be outside at 0500 to catch bus to Regiment for change of command at 1300 but bus doesn't show til 1000.
The world will never know

Response by 1SG Tommy McGee made Apr 21 at 2020 11:06 PM

1SG Tommy McGee — Tue, 21 Apr 2020 23:06:35 -0400

Staying “late” is usually piss poor planning on the command staffs part, there are some exceptions.
I gave my PSGs a task and purpose and sent them on their way with their soldiers. Once the task was complete the PSG would report back to me, if I didn’t have another task I would tell him to take PSG time. He could keep them or send them to the house with the understanding that they may get recalled. I had high morale and a 97% retention rate, and very few discipline problems.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2020 3:25 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:25:14 -0400

Hate it. If its 1600 and something new comes down...it can wait for tomorrow.
Waiting around to clean the latrines twice then have a formation to ensure everyone wants to go home is a waste of time and part of the reason morale sucks.
If there's legitimate stuff to do, then absolutely do it. But don't make 80 people do nothing because 1 doesn't want to go home, or didn't do their own work.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2020 3:25 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:25:57 -0400

PS. The SORB is here for those who wish to minimize waiting for a clock...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2020 12:04 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 00:04:26 -0400

I've seen alot more of releasing early, even if it means neglecting training or close of business duties.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 21 at 2021 7:25 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 21 Feb 2021 19:25:47 -0500

I told my NCOs if the soldiers have done there work. Send them home.

Response by CPO Clifford Henry made Feb 28 at 2022 11:15 AM

CPO Clifford Henry — Mon, 28 Feb 2022 11:15:44 -0500

It was my experience that many supervisors used staying late to prove that they could. Notice I said supervisor and not leader. If you take care of your people, when they need to stay late they’ll know it’s for a good reason and they’ll bust their ass to get whatever needs done, done.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Feb 28 at 2022 12:34 PM

SPC Steven Depuy — Mon, 28 Feb 2022 12:34:32 -0500

lol, did your enlistment contract say it was a 9 - 5 job?