Why do Soldiers not understand that the Army Values apply 100% of the time?

2013-10-29T03:27:36-04:00

Why do Soldiers have such a hard time being comfortable with the ideas that 1) the Army values are valuable 100% of the time - on and off duty and 2) a Soldier should act like in a professional manner no matter where he or she should find themselves?

For that matter, why are leaders OK with lapses in integrity or selfless service (for example) if the Soldier in question isn't on base, on duty, or in uniform at the time of the lapse?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 9:31 AM

2013-10-29T09:31:09-04:00

SFC,

I think the answer to this question comes down to the distinction between "having a job as a soldier" or truly being a part of the Profession of Arms. This concept of being a professional soldier is something that I see in writing, hear in speeches, and talked about in training but rarely do I see it actually lived out in the lives of Jr leaders in the Army. In my experiences, I tend to see this ideal being lived in Sr leadership (Officers and NCOs) that are career soldiers more often than with our Jr leaders. I've spoken about this very subject with leaders in our Army and many contribute this to the fact that we've gotten away from our garrison based ideals and that over a decade of war has brought about a lax attitude in our Jr and some of the newer Sr leadership. Regardless of the reason for this regression, it comes down to leaders at all levels to enforce and instill into our soldiers what it means to be a professional through our own example. I've had leaders in the past that have done just that and I can tell you that it has made an impression on me as a soldier and on the way I view the career I've chosen. If you, as a leader, allow your soldiers to make decisions that bring discredit on themselves and on our profession without repercussions, you are not only hurting the Military but doing that soldier a disservice.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 9:50 AM

2013-10-29T09:50:47-04:00

As LT Brantley mentioned, if we expect our Soldiers to live our values all the time then we must take a hard look at ourselves and ensure we are indeed doing so. We need also realize that after basic training, the transition to professional Soldier continues and we must continue to mold and develop our young Soldiers as we serve with them. If we maintain and enforce the standards then we will develop future leaders who will do the same. It's easy to complain about Soldiers not doing what know they should, or not meeting the standards, or not wearing the uniform properly, or .... When we find ourselves complaining we should stop, evaluate what we are doing to fix the problem, and then take action within our realm of responsibility. My 1SG used to remind me of this when he'd tell me to "worry about our bubble, sir! Let's make things as good as we can in our bubble." As to the question of leaders being OK with lapses, I wonder if you're talking about allowing second chances or not providing any discipline for that lapse? If it's the first, I'm okay with second chances and helping a Soldier learn from it and develop into that future leader we want. If it's the absence of discipline then see the first part of this rambling response.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Oct 29 at 2013 3:04 PM

2013-10-29T15:04:22-04:00

SFC Taylor, Your topic is totally reasonable. Soldiers should live and breath Army values and carry out their personal set and values and norms as long as it is morally and ethically correct. In my words and through my action as an Noncommissioned Officer I drill army values into my soldiers on a daily basis, and I follow army values even when they are not looking.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2013 4:15 PM

2013-10-29T16:15:17-04:00

SFC Tyler,

Many great points in this thread. I would add one more perspective, I think it is the maturity of the Soldier, the examples the leaders set, and the individual's personal set of values (what was taught to them by their parents, if any at all). When I was a recruiter I remember the number one objection I heard was "I don't like being told what to do." I think many Soldiers have to come to the realization that their own set of values can be exercised as well as the Army's Values. We can only achieve this through education (training and annual classes), personal example set by Leaders, and engendering a commitment to the Army's core values.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Oct 30 at 2013 1:20 PM

2013-10-30T13:20:41-04:00

I think it comes down to the "do as I say, not as I do" mentality. What put lots of high standards and expectations on our new soldiers for them only to be surrounded by leadership, senior leadership for that matter in the news about once a week for violating our core values. If we are going to instill these values in our soldiers they have to see it lived through our actions. Sadly they are not. From our top generals, whether it be Patreus having an affair, GEN Ward defrauding the govt through travel vouchers, SFC Sharp reps prostituting women at Ft. Hood, videoing cadets at West Point, Post Commander relieved at Ft. Jackson for adultery, Hospital Commander at Evans Army CH with over 30 sexual harassment complaints, 1SG's and CSMs getting DUIs, etc. We are SURROUNDED by it. So yes, its a hard sell. I've seen a SGT reduced and chaptered out over $50 on a travel voucher at the same time GEN Ward was caught of at least $80,000 that we know of. We call them standards but we don't enforce them as such.

The problem is not the soldiers it is the leaders. I had excellent leaders coming up in the beginning of my career and I did all I could to emulate them. I wanted to be like them. Now, not so much. All we can do now is try to influence those directly under us and hope they get it enough to keep it once they move on.

Response by PO1 Walter Duncan made Nov 5 at 2013 1:48 PM

2013-11-05T13:48:24-05:00

Have this experience and you will see the value of "Integrity". My family was leaving the local Wal-Mart several years ago and I noticed a small 3 dollar item had not been charged and was in the bottom of the buggy. I picked it up and told my family I would be right back, that I had to go and pay for this item. Both of my children looked at me in astonishment and my wife was a little puzzled, but then she explained to them it was wrong to take the item, no matter how inexpensive. It would be stealing. A valuable lesson was learned by my children, a lesson most are denied.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Nov 6 at 2013 11:03 AM

2013-11-06T11:03:00-05:00

The Army is not alone in this arena. The Coast Guard continues to experience its share of embarrassments for failure to adhere to service core values. It's everything from CC (Coast Guard Drill Sergeants) being relieved for sexual or abusive actions towards recruits to OICs/COs involved in inappropriate relationships with civilian service providers. The thing I find most disturbing is that the majority of the higher profile events are not our E1-E3s. It's people who have been in the service long enough to know better, and to have seen others run afoul of the system.

The most significant problem is the long term impact on morale and performance. If new recruits and junior members see their seniors behaving in a manner which doesn't espouse core values, how can we expect them to behave any differently as they progress through their careers. The problem feeds itself because we don't require all members to live the warrior ethos daily in all circumstances.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 11:07 AM

2013-11-21T11:07:50-05:00

Is it possible to be a good Soldier, Sailor, Airmen, Marine, Coast Guardsman if you have lax morals/values as long as you're good at your job?

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Nov 21 at 2013 11:12 AM

2013-11-21T11:12:17-05:00

I would argue that as a leader, you can't wholly be good at your job if you have lax morals and values. You must set the example at all times, and at the very moment when you think none of your subordinates are watching you and so you compromise your values, that may be the moment when they're paying the most attention. As a leader, you must live the values of the service at all times, even when no one is looking.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 11:37 PM

2013-11-21T23:37:22-05:00

So, in reading these responses I am reminded of another couple of questions. Is it OK to ask a Soldier to "check his or her values and beliefs at the door" and adopt the Army Values (in the case of Soldiers)? If so, is that reasonable and what should a Soldier do when his or her individual beliefs differ, which one "wins?"

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2013 11:46 PM

2013-11-21T23:46:02-05:00

SFC Marcus T., I agree and I believe sometimes even the best may have a lapse in responsibility. That said, we should ALWAYS STRIVE to be professional 24hrs a day. I remember at Little Rock, A SSgt came into the day room and started cussing everyone out because someone took his truck and rolled it.

I was also a SSgt and admonished him verbally for fraternizing and being drunk and out of control. As NCOs we may be faced with something and challenging and the last thng we need is for leaders to act like fools. The public sees this as well and we are all judged accordingly.

Response by SFC Gary (Bigsarge) Portier USARMY RET. made Mar 11 at 2014 12:28 PM

2014-03-11T12:28:17-04:00

THE ARMY VALUES. Army Values like NCOER are not worth the paper it's written on.

Most I have run into want the values directed toward them but do not use them towards others. Hope I explained well enough.

As for NCOER what good is when told to write my own then they will sign it. or I am given a bad one with no write ups of any kind and everyone signs off on it with out question and no one knows hope to dispute it.

Response by COL Robert White made Apr 27 at 2014 2:25 AM

2014-04-27T02:25:10-04:00

Values are important. Mistakes will be made (by everyone), however there is a difference between a mistake and an "on purpose". Unfortunately some folks were not brought up with proper values. It is up to us as leaders to teach our soldiers our common values. It worked for me!

Response by SGT Scott Bailey made Jan 24 at 2015 2:14 PM

2015-01-24T14:14:07-05:00

Integrity and respect for our President from military members is off the charts. Take your hatred to the voting booth. For service members to be so disrespectful, all political persuasions included, his sending wrong messages to young men and women in uniform. Lead by example. Hate is not a good example. We are ALL AMERICANS! We need to all start acting like it. "Divided we Fall". Absolutely

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 28 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-01-28T18:38:23-05:00

Along these same lines, is there a such thing as a "universal" code of ethics? Please understand. I don't mean universal as in all people at all times but I do mean all people in a specific organization (e.g. company or squadron) or all people in a certain category (e.g. Airmen/Sailors/Soldiers/Marines/etc). Can we expect anything that we try to do in the diverse organizations of which we are a part to hold anything as universally true?