Why do people say "AR-15's are not as equal as M4/16"?

2016-06-15T14:04:19-04:00

Maybe I'm just a POG, but I'm sure most of the time, you're M4 is set on semi when qualifying or combat. Plus you're M4 can't be as customized as a personal built AR.. I actually think the opposite of this question. Thoughts?

UPDATE: The discussion of the trigger mechanism is not the main purpose of my question, it's the fact that people make the AR-15 and M4 seem like they're night and day and share absolutely NOTHING in common

Response by MSG James S. made Jun 15 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-06-15T14:07:44-04:00

They are the same weapon!

Response by SFC John Hill made Jun 15 at 2016 2:10 PM

2016-06-15T14:10:49-04:00

The Ordinance Corps, after accepting the AR-15 design, they declared it inadequately developed and ordered modifications to “militarize” it into the M-16. Don’t forget the M4 is Government Property, not yours!

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 15 at 2016 2:11 PM

2016-06-15T14:11:32-04:00

Because AR-15's are strictly semi-automatic whereas M4's and M16's are selective fire. How difficult is that to understand?

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 15 at 2016 2:11 PM

2016-06-15T14:11:37-04:00

The M4 and M16 models are variants of the AR-15. To those that don't know the difference, they will keep insisting they are the same firearm. After all, they look very similar. Can't blame them on lack of information. It is for those that know better to educate those that don't know.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:13 PM

2016-06-15T14:13:25-04:00

An M4 is JUST as customizable as an AR 15. They're essentially the same with slight variations such as the barrel. The upper and lower receivers are relatively similar to the M16 with slight variations depending on the maker. In the civilian world, all M4s and AR 15s are only authorized to fire in single or semi automatic firing rates. Three round burst and fully automatic are illegal. But point being is that there is not a big difference between M4 and AR 15, and both are capable of being built in a garage when buying parts and kits, or being fully customizable

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:57 PM

2016-06-15T14:57:55-04:00

Ok. Take a standard AR-15 (.223), and fire NATO 5.56 thru it. After you leave the ER come and report.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 15 at 2016 3:09 PM

2016-06-15T15:09:56-04:00

As I stated on another post, an AR15 is 90% M16.....but that 10% makes a world of difference.

Now if you are asking why I cant' use my personal AR15 to qualify with, the answer is easy: You qualify with the weapon you are going to take with you in combat. Until you are authorized to bring your personal AR15 from home with you to combat, you are stuck with your GI weapon.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 3:10 PM

2016-06-15T15:10:56-04:00

Hi, SPC Bernardy.

The M4 can be switched between semi-auto and three round burst. The AR can only fire semi-auto. Unless I'm missing something, other than that, they're the same rifle.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 4:32 PM

2016-06-15T16:32:41-04:00

I don't want anyone on here to think I'm pushing for gun control, I'm a guy of facts and I don't want falsified info to be spread around. I would love to see a homemade AR compared to an M4 in rate of fire (when used in it's primary state....semi-auto) and accuracy

Response by SGT Jimmy Carpenter made Jun 15 at 2016 4:52 PM

2016-06-15T16:52:22-04:00

It doesn't matter that the selector lever on your M4 almost never gets switched to burst, it's the fact that it CAN be switched to burst that makes it an "assault rifle".

An AR15 ONLY has safe and fire, no burst or full option, therefore making it nothing more than a sporting rifle or as the more popular name , Personal Defense Weapon.

Response by SPC Casey Ashfield made Jun 15 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-06-15T17:01:20-04:00

There are a few differences between a civilian AR15 and a military issued M4. The select fire ability has already been harped on plenty. It is legal for civilians to own an AR with select fire, just with a boatload of paperwork. You are correct SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member, burst or auto fire in the military is rarely used. The only times I ever used burst in training was during room clearing with live rounds or when we had surplus ammo to burn up after qualification. I never used burst in country and not sure if anyone else did either.

The military M4/M16 uses a more durable phosphorous coating compared to an AR-15. I am not sure all the ins and outs of the metal treatment but that is what I have always been told about the differences between the two.

Another important difference is barrel length. At least on the M4. Just like with select fire, civilians can own a short barrel AR15 with the right paperwork. Barrel length on an M4 is 14.5 inches. M4 barrels also have a taper just past the front sight post that allow for the attachment of the M203 grenade launcher. I am unaware if the newer M320 needs the barrel taper.

The final major difference is less the rifle, more the accessories. As a civilian, night vision paired with IR lasers is very expensive to come by. In the military, PEQ lasers are handed out with just a signature and some 550 cord to tie it down.

Response by SFC Pete Kain made Jun 15 at 2016 5:44 PM

2016-06-15T17:44:17-04:00

People that say that are penis challenged. I am more concerned about a 30.06 scoped long gun than a glorified .22 spray and pray. Just saying.

(not my most eloquent but hope you get my drift)

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 5:56 PM

2016-06-15T17:56:48-04:00

your wrong on this, m4 m16ar ar15 can be altered to fit any round fired, had a cpt i served with he had his firing 50 cal

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 15 at 2016 6:03 PM

2016-06-15T18:03:38-04:00

The AR-15 is a Semi-Automatic weapon which LOOKS like the MACHINE GUN M4/M16 variant.

"Most" of the parts are interchangeable, with the exception of the Receiver and Bolt Carrier Group.

The Receiver IS the weapon. It's the serialized item, and contains the "mechanical workings" which make the weapon a "machine gun" (Automatic or Multi-fire) as opposed to Semi-Automatic (pull trigger 1 time, get 1 bullet).

Think about it like this. You're a Nodal Network Systems Operator (whatever that is). You look just like every other Army guy to the uninformed. I can slap all kinds of "Equipment" on you to where you look "just like a grunt." Does that make you a "grunt?"

YOU are the "receiver" or the weapon. Everything else is an "Accessory" or a "Part" which is placed on top of that.

Now, take an actual "grunt" and take away his gear. He's always going to be a "grunt." Same thing with Machine Guns (Weapons capable of Automatic or Burst Fire).

CC: LTC Paul Labrador

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Jun 15 at 2016 9:35 PM

2016-06-15T21:35:29-04:00

As an old school Marine, I will take my M16A1 or A2 any day over the M4. Yeah, Please give me iron sights too. AMMO BEARER UP! Semper Fi.

Response by SPC Darren Koele made Jun 15 at 2016 9:45 PM

2016-06-15T21:45:41-04:00

Okay, have to put my to cents here before somebody breaks something. All this talk of "they are the same", "they are the same except that selector switch", etc, might be cool to talk about. The biggest difference, as in, one that will make or physically break your rifle is the ammunition and the chambers.

The M4 and M16 are 5.56mm. The AR-15 is .223. Dimensionally, the two rounds are the same (length and width). However, the 5.56 mm is loaded to higher pressures to achieve higher velocities (making it milspec) than the civilian .223.

In the rifles, in the barrel, the throat (the portion just before the rifling) is twice as long in the M4 and M16 than in a .223 chambered rifle (.162in to .085in, respectively). The reason for this is to accommodate the hotter load of the 5.56 cartridge. What happens when you switch? If you put a .223 in in a 5.56 mm chamber, it will achieve lower pressures and lower velocities, which will affect accuracy but not cause damage to the weapon. However, put a hotter 5.56 mm round in a .223 chamber with the smaller throat, you will achieve overpressure. It may work the first few times but will eventually cause malfunction and damage to your chamber.

In short, don't put 5.56mm milspec rounds through your civilian AR-15 and don't attempt to put a civilian.223 barrel on your milspec rifle and shoot milspec ammunition. But .223 will work in both, though better in one than the other.

Response by SGT William Howell made Jun 16 at 2016 8:38 AM

2016-06-16T08:38:40-04:00

There is nothing different other than the select fire. Up until FN won the contract to produce the M-4 the lowers were made by Anderson Arms in Northern KY and sold to Colt. They are mil spec and the only exception is a 3rd hole and the milling of the auto sear pocket.

I have heard that military's M-4s have to shoot a minimum of 6 MOA with ball ammo to be mil spec. I am not exactly sure that number is correct. It is entirely possible for civilian versions, out of the box,. to be sub- MOA to 1 1/2 MOA depending on the manufacture. So you may get an even more accurate M-4 from the civilian market.

Basic infantry tactics require that when you come under attack that you lay down suppressive fire until the enemy can be located, then switch to single rounds (To conserve ammo) while other members of the fire team flank the enemy.

I never used burst ever in combat except once. (I was shooting tracers at night to show the Mk-19 where a mortar pit was located.) 196 (28 per mag) rounds ain't a lot of ammo in a fire fight you don't want to waste it and then need it later. Controlled pairs is much more accurate and not that much slower rate of fire.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Jun 16 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-06-16T10:31:35-04:00

Single shot v. burst or full auto.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 16 at 2016 11:05 AM

2016-06-16T11:05:06-04:00

This meme is based on an article written for the NY Daily News by the guy pictured. The author, Gersh Kuntzman, relates his first experience shooting an AR (and probably the first time shooting a gun of any kind). His description (captioned in the meme) is, to put it nicely...........interesting.......

I am all for people having differing opinions on things. But when you start throwing out hyperbole to describe something to people who also probably never experienced it, and with an obvious agenda to mislead and misrepresent, that tweaks me as a bit wrong.

Oh yeah, and if you think shooting an AR is "horrifying" and feels like a "bazooka", you my friend, are pussy....

Full article here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/firing-ar-15-horrifying-dangerous-loud-article-1.2673201

Firing an AR-15 is horrifying, menacing and very very loud

It feels like a bazooka — and sounds like a cannon.

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 16 at 2016 2:47 PM

2016-06-16T14:47:29-04:00

They are not. One has an automatic (read machine gun) capability the other does not. There are differences in the trigger mechanism.

Response by SFC Justin Gragg made Jun 17 at 2016 5:18 AM

2016-06-17T05:18:40-04:00

Maybe this will clear it up for you,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

AR-15 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The AR-15 is a military and civilian rifle that has been produced in many different versions. The term AR-15 was chosen by Colt for the civilian models it produced after selling the rifle to the U.S. military as the M16 rifle, and many people and references use the term AR-15 exclusively for civilian models. This article discusses the original design for military users and its major variants, however they are labeled. AR-15 rifles are...

Response by PFC Amthony Murray made Jun 17 at 2016 2:46 PM

2016-06-17T14:46:09-04:00

Because the standards and materials are often no of the same grade as the military version. You also have the whole selective fire thing going on with the military version. Apples and Oranges. Similar, but not nearly the same.

Response by SSG Chris B. made Jun 19 at 2016 1:08 PM

2016-06-19T13:08:08-04:00

With enough duct tape and 550 cord you can customize your M4 any way you want.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 1:32 PM

2016-06-19T13:32:40-04:00

You know monkeys share 99% of DNA with humans. Does that make us 99% compatible? Not even fking close. While technically AR 15 only needs non neutered bolt assembly and replacement for trigger mechanism, it is still quite an effort.
The main difference that most AR 15s designed to shoot .223. Most .223 chambers are not designed for pressures of 5.56 on the long run and are not as durable as military standard ones. Firing 5.56 out of .223 AR have severe accuracy impact. Chances of jamming also increases trying to use 5.56 instead of .223 for .223 rifle. AR 15 can be modified just like m4 and m16(specifically everything past A2 models) but the truth is the only reason most military users of M4s and m16s are not modified as much simply because they are in hands of military personnel who either not allowed to do so by the chain of command or simply because they do not have interest in doing so.

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made Jun 19 at 2016 3:59 PM

2016-06-19T15:59:46-04:00

Accuracy comes down to barrel. Twist and length. I could put one of my SS Krieger match barrels onto any M4 and win a match. You don't get accuracy from a carbine...

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Jun 19 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-06-19T16:37:20-04:00

NFA 1934 and FOPA 1986 makes them a $200 tax stamp and $15,000 different to a civilian.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2016 9:03 PM

2016-06-19T21:03:09-04:00

The platform created by Eugene Stoner is the most accurate full auto/semi-auto design on any market, regardless of model or derivative. You simply can't go wrong with either.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2016 5:58 AM

2016-06-20T05:58:28-04:00

Only a POG would be that worried about customizing his service rifle... Nothing like adding another five pounds of flashlights, lasers, and extra shit and carrying miles a day.

Response by Cpl Jon Westbrook made Jun 20 at 2016 8:24 AM

2016-06-20T08:24:40-04:00

Hey I know that guy lol
And Milspec is Milspec is Milspec. Unless youre paying for match grade shit its all pretty much equal. Just FYI, other than self contained trigger groups or specialty triggers, The only difference between a "Match Grade" AR trigger and a normal one is someone took the time to sand the surfaces down so they don't feel as gritty. It takes ten minutes and a diamond file.

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Jul 5 at 2016 11:30 AM

2016-07-05T11:30:46-04:00

Its the un-informed or ill-informed that try to make that distinction SPC Bernardy. They feel that all rifles that are black or parkerized in color are machine guns. I am sure they feel the M4 because it has 3 round burst capability is more of a threat. Most M4's have more hardware hanging off them than you can shake a stick at. Most M16A1's or M16A2's were hard to accessorize except for a Harris bi-pod and scope mounted on the carry handle. The new carbine AR15's can be accessorized with nearly anything you can hang on an M4 so I don't understand the argument.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Dec 1 at 2016 3:44 PM

2016-12-01T15:44:49-05:00

What to you hope to gain from this discussion? Where are we going here? Suggesting semi auto only in the military (better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it)? You want a swoopy cool M4 (civilian trends followed military adoption of rail systems then supplied consumer demand for stuff to hang off the gus) at work and like carrying around all that stuff? You want a personal auto, buy a Title II gun. Or, you want a 14.5" barrel and retain a removable flash hider, Form 1 your receiver and build a SBR, again, Title II. Or are we agreeing with the anti gun press by supporting their assertion that the AR15 is a bad, evil, killing machine found in the streets and is a military grade weapon like the M4 and has no place in society? Seems to me the loose nut behind the trigger is more the concern but we never get into that rabbit hole.

As Tom Bowers states, better questions get better answers. What do you want from this?

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jun 23 at 2019 6:09 PM

2019-06-23T18:09:14-04:00

Trigger and sear are the crux of the difference. You can’t make an AR15 into and M4 without serious modifications. The barrel of an M4 is generally heavier, allows for sustained fires. You can get a heavier barrel for an AR.