Why are we now pinning MSMs on E4s for Soldier of the Year when we doing the same for retiring E8s after 20 years of service?

2018-08-20T22:24:25-04:00

A recent detailed photo of a Soldier/NCO of the Year competition showed a pic in the Army Times... Both had been pinned MSMs. An accomplishment that merited an MSM? What ever happened to an ARCOM and choice assignment, and if they are in the reserves, oh well on the assignment aspect, enjoy the award...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2018 10:47 PM

2018-08-20T22:47:43-04:00

If you win Soldier of the Year for the Army, MACOM or even a Corps, I would say that definitely merits an MSM. That is the definition of meritorious service.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2018 11:07 PM

2018-08-20T23:07:31-04:00

What recent Army Times issue?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2018 12:00 AM

2018-08-21T00:00:54-04:00

Winning a competition at the US Army National Guard level...as in beating competitors encompassing the entire United States and territories....I'd say that warrants MSMs. Good for them.

https://www.army.mil/article/209246

Army National Guard finds its Best Warriors at competition

FORT INDIANTOWN GAP, Pa. -- After a grueling three-day competition at Fort Indiantown Gap, Pennsylvania, Spc. Bailey Ruff and Army Sgt. Jordy Brewer emerged as the Soldier and Noncommissioned Officer of the Year at the 2018 Army National Guard Best W...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2018 12:16 AM

2018-08-21T00:16:39-04:00

Rallypoint is here to sort a good question like this.

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Aug 21 at 2018 2:16 AM

2018-08-21T02:16:29-04:00

Back in my high speed days, I was a Div SOY. This warranted, by CGs reckoning, an ARCOM. Justifiably so, IMO. Winning BN and BDE garnered an AAM each, moving up to DIV seemed worthy of ARCOM. On that note, how can you justify the single Soldier or NCO in the ENTIRE Army who beats out ALL competitors receiving the same award as me, who couldn't cut it at the Corps level?

Is it "meritorious service?". Well, it is definitely service, as that is the Soldier's appointed duty for that point in time. And I don't think anyone can argue that it is without merit.

As for the specifics, as to what qualifies for that level, well..... It is entirely up to the approving Commander.

And I will also say that, having run that gauntlet, I believe that Army SOY / NCO is a FAR greater achievement than simply making it to retirement.

Response by LCDR Robert S. made Aug 21 at 2018 10:57 AM

2018-08-21T10:57:35-04:00

It's certainly possible, and maybe even likely that the E4s winning these SOY awards *have* done something great enough earn them an MSM - if they have, and they haven't already been recognized with one, the board should note that and they should get it at the SOY presentation. And if one of them has already gotten an MSM and the other hasn't, during the SOY presentation, the speaker should include something like, "actions for which SPC4 Awesomesauce was awarded the MSM," so that the attendees realize that Awesomesauce has already been recognized with an MSM, and Stellardude is getting an MSM for similarly impressive accomplishments today.

A really important thing that leaders should realize is that winning SOY isn't an action with an impact, it's an award that recognizes Soldiers as standing out among their peers (presumably because those Soldiers have already *had* an impact). Winning SOY, at whatever level, should indicate to their leadership that their Soldier is clearly doing *something* that merits recognition, and if that Soldier hasn't already gotten an award for the impact they had during the previous year, leadership has fallen down on the job, and it's time for those leaders to step up and recognize the Soldier for those impacts. When someone sees the medal on their chest and asks, "Hey, what did you get that one for?" the answer should be an action or list of actions that led to the board picking them to be SOY (and maybe also, "and they also gave me DIV SOY"), rather than saying "I got it for being selected as SOY."

Response by 1SG Timothy Trewin made Aug 21 at 2018 11:08 AM

2018-08-21T11:08:13-04:00

With the ease that they hand out ARCOMs now a MSM is easily justified for an accomplishment such as that. Now if we want to discuss the broken award system then that is another story.

Response by PO1 David Johnson made Sep 2 at 2018 11:19 AM

2018-09-02T11:19:54-04:00

The Army has been handing out all its awards as if they were popcorn. It seems the attitude is, if the systems broken why try to fix it. USN and ARNG retiree perspective. My brother was active duty Air Force and was killed in a Helo crash. He was awarded a MSM posthumously, doesn't seem equivalent.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Sep 2 at 2018 11:38 AM

2018-09-02T11:38:26-04:00

In the AF, we give them their own "I was there" ribbon, we save the medals for other stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outstanding_Airman_of_the_Year_Ribbon

Outstanding Airman of the Year Ribbon - Wikipedia

The Outstanding Airman of the Year Ribbon is a military award of the United States Air Force which was created on February 21, 1968 by order of Secretary of the Air Force Harold Brown. The first presentation of the award was in June 1970. The Outstanding Airman of the Year Ribbon is the highest personal ribbon award of the United States Air Force.[2]

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Sep 2 at 2018 12:04 PM

2018-09-02T12:04:04-04:00

I was awarded one as an E5 for my last deployment. I was really good at what I did. If you knew the scrutiny such an award goes through to be approved, then you would know that any soldier under E7 that recieved one earned it .

Response by TSgt James Warfield made Sep 2 at 2018 12:12 PM

2018-09-02T12:12:15-04:00

An award should be based on merit not on time in service or rank. I retired but not as and E8 but and E6 because the MOS field I was in ( I was AF ) was small and promotions only came as their was a vacancy. Bottom line. I was only able to get E6 ( 1974-1994) My Supervisor a Capt put me in for an MSM and it was denied based on my rank. This is so wrong. Awards should be about merit and not by rank.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 3:06 PM

2018-09-02T15:06:52-04:00

I got an MSM as an E5 in 2009, post deployment... There were a LOT of hurt feelings above me...

Response by SFC J CRuz made Sep 2 at 2018 4:02 PM

2018-09-02T16:02:47-04:00

In my opinion MSM is a bit over done for the Soldier of the Year Award, I have been NCO of the Year twice before in my life time and ARCOM is more than enough recognition for it. Just been presented and Award in front of your pears and leader say it all about you. MSM the same goes about these individual that PCS after six month out of a unit and get one of them that is a deserving to all these services member that retired with 20 years or more and some of them get an ARCOM few get MSM and other that belong to the Club get LOM...

Response by TSgt David Whitmore made Sep 2 at 2018 6:09 PM

2018-09-02T18:09:14-04:00

I haven't a clue.
I didn't get one when I retired. In fact, when folks were preparing for my retirement ceremony I was told, flat out, that I didn't qualify to get an MSM because I had never been awarded an Achievement Medal. I informed my then-current supervisor "That's because when, at my previous Duty Station, the OIC of the Team I was on told me I had done a terrific job while deployed while doing my job, and the work of two other team members, in different career fields, while pulling 16 hour work days, told me that I deserved formal recognition from the unit, and he also informed my immediate supervisor of this fact. I submitted the bullet points of what I had done to my supervisor. But, I just hadn't felt it proper that I should also have to write up my own Award for doing what needed to be done."
I finally got an Achievement Medal at my retirement ceremony.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 6:17 PM

2018-09-02T18:17:46-04:00

Officers and senior enlisted have been writing MSMs and better for each other forever based on doing their job. Some people get them because they were with the right command group on deployment. I don't specifically know what goes into preparing for and dominating a Soldier of the Year competition, but I would say that is the definition of meritorious service... Well above and beyond even their high-level peers.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 6:17 PM

2018-09-02T18:17:50-04:00

It's an impressive accomplishment for sure, particularly by a SPC. However, I have never seen an impact MSM awarded previously. This is not typical, nor is it a typical accomplishment. Of course, the criteria for high-level awards seems to be "evolving". I recently recall that x4 airmen received the DFC for an emergency landing of a B1 (not in theatre/noncombat support). https://ktxs.com/news/abilene/4-dyess-airmen-awarded-distinguished-flying-cross-after-emergency-landing-of-b-1-bomber

4 Dyess airmen awarded Distinguished Flying Cross after emergency landing of B-1 bomber

Four airmen from Dyess Air Force Base were awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for their roles in the emergency landing of a B-1 bomber in May.Gen. Robin Rand presented the medals to Maj. Christopher N. Duhon, Capt. Matthew Sutton, 1st Lt. Joseph Welch

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 7:18 PM

2018-09-02T19:18:52-04:00

I'm just a lowly LCpl but I think being soldier of the year, which I'm guessing means you're the best soldier of them all, definitely rates an MSM. In my opinion that's definitely meritorious service, but what do I know, I'm just a LCpl.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Sep 2 at 2018 8:42 PM

2018-09-02T20:42:08-04:00

This is a classic case of "medal inflation". At the core of the problem is a lack of guidance from DA as to what the award criteria for decorations should be. As a general rule, the higher ranking medals are awarded to higher ranking soldiers. The problem is that different people have different standards for who should receive what medal for what.
Basically there are five non-combat medals which can be awarded for meritorious service or retirement.
For what it is worth - here is the criteria I think they Army should use.
Distinguished Service Medals - General officers and nominative Command Sergeants Major.
Legion of Merit - General officers, Colonels (O-6), CW4s and MW5s, Sergeants Major and as a retirement award for outstanding E-8s.
Meritorious Service Medal - MAJs, LTCs, COLs, CW3s, CW4s, MW5s, SFCs and higher and outstanding CPTs and SSGs.
Army Commendation Medal - 1LTs through LTCs, W1s though CW4s, SGTs though SFCs and outstanding SPCs.
Army Achievement Medal - 2LTs though CPTs, WO1s and CW2s, PVTs though SGTs.

Just my opinion.

Response by PO2 Michael Solik made Sep 2 at 2018 9:02 PM

2018-09-02T21:02:01-04:00

it doesn't make a difference all the attaboys and one all s*** there goes all your attaboys

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 9:32 PM

2018-09-02T21:32:00-04:00

Because awards are given based on merit and not rank

Response by 1SG Morales Mata made Sep 2 at 2018 9:58 PM

2018-09-02T21:58:06-04:00

Well sure subject with me, 26 years ret 1SG=MSM, PCS Previous unit MSM

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2018 11:31 PM

2018-09-02T23:31:32-04:00

I’m completely against the idea that there’s a minimum rank for any given award. ‘Best e-nothing on the planet’ certainly merits some effort by the Army to retain and promote that Soldier. I think 2-3 MSMs per year to high speed kids helps accomplish that.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Sep 3 at 2018 12:55 AM

2018-09-03T00:55:24-04:00

Highest I ever saw was an Army Commendation Medal; most were AAMs. MSM is overkill for SoY.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Sep 4 at 2018 12:19 AM

2018-09-04T00:19:22-04:00

Reading many of the comments I see a common theme: I got screwed so why does an E4 rate this award? Never mind the level of the achievement and work involved, it is just not fair. Advocates for rank based awards. Makes me ill.

You can take care of your people and protect the integrity of the award system. All the crying about getting screwed, officers and NCOs taking care of only themselves does nothing and it needs to stop. Take care of your people even if you got burned. When you gripe about the good ole boy system when that is perception only it creates animosity. Some of you did not get an award for a reason so be honest about it.

SOY at the Army level is quite an accomplishment. Good job! Congratulate them and if you are mad, go compete.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2018 6:39 AM

2018-09-04T06:39:52-04:00

How many 20+ year soldiers retiring each year, have made soldier of the year at that high of a level?

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Sep 4 at 2018 8:02 AM

2018-09-04T08:02:40-04:00

This is and excellent question. But being and old Soldier I do not have an answer I know I spent 22yrs retired and got an MSM that I don't Display because the Award was given to me at retirement and no orders I was told they would come by mail. But it would appear that awards and Promotions are handed out like candy these days. JMT

Response by SPC Mike Thibodeau made Sep 4 at 2018 10:24 AM

2018-09-04T10:24:11-04:00

If you have an issue with that then im sure you have an issue with E7/O1 and above automatically receiving a bronze star for a deployment, regardless of their job while deployed.

Response by SFC Robert Townsend made Sep 4 at 2018 10:44 AM

2018-09-04T10:44:50-04:00

It’s all BS... if a soldier earns an award as deemed by his or her chain of command he or she should be given that award... While I agree with giving the correct award for each accomplishment.... rank should not have anything to do with it..... I filled an E8 and even a W2 or W3 position for three years and was recommended for the legion of Merrit twice.... They were both turned down because I was only an E7... I retired 26 years ago with a bitter taste in my mouth... So as you can see the pendulum swings both ways...... only other thing I have to say is it’s Politics!

Response by TSgt Kerry Hardy made Sep 5 at 2018 11:22 PM

2018-09-05T23:22:14-04:00

Ribbons and Medals aren't handed out by rank but by action! Stop thinking because are an E-7/8/9 that you should get certain medals and E4/5/6 should not....

Response by SFC David Bentley made Sep 15 at 2018 9:10 PM

2018-09-15T21:10:18-04:00

I retired in NOV, did 21 years, but my last command had issues, and from indifferenc, incompetence or just a final FU I didn’t get a retirement award. I asked the CDR and he explained that only officers get retirement awards and retirement ceremonies. I learned a long time ago to go on take the money and go.