Why are the Marines delaying equality in fitness standards?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:19:50 -0400

I am not sure how many of us are taking this. There are more equality issues going on besides the US Army's Ranger School. So far the Marines have been striving to lead the other Armed Forces in this. We know how their Infantry Officer School program went. But I am not just focusing infantry. Not everyone is infantry.

Currently have service members in gender neutral MOS's. The Marines have tried to implement a Marine Corps wide fitness even that would be for males and females. All Marines would have to do 3 pull ups. The found "At the time, officials said that 55 percent of women had been unable to complete the minimum standard of three pullups to pass the PFT."

With was to start in 2013 but has been delayed twice now. According to a new message released by Marine Corps Headquarters, women will continue to be able to choose between pullups and the flexed-arm hang until the end of 2015. With the two year delay of this do you think it is reasonable? Was a year of preparing for this not long enough?

Now lets look at the implications of this. If you fail your Fitness test you would be facing some pretty adverse actions. If it is anything like the Army you could be facing anything from failing to promote, bar from reenlistment, all the way up to a early discharge.

Shouldn't an equal standard be applied? Do you think an anticipation of failure is delaying this? Is this political driven or equality driving this?

Should they keep to their guns and start this standard this year?

http://www.quanticosentryonline.com/news/article_80152628-0e6e-11e4-8fc3-001a4bcf6878.html

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:23:19 -0400

The Marines have been field testing this for a long time. They have not implemented it yet because far too many female Marines can't meet that standard. Rather than put that many good women in hock, they have been refining their unit-level training trying to get that number to a managable one, so far unsuccessfully.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:26 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:26:54 -0400

I am not sure the reason behind the delay but if we are speaking about equal opportunity, should that involve taking a universal PT instead of have a different standard for males or females or should we move toward MOS specific PT standards.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 10 at 2015 4:37 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:37:57 -0400

They'd have to throw me out, I know that much.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jun 10 at 2015 5:03 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 17:03:36 -0400

2 years is a long time to train for a test. Capt Richard I P.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 10 at 2015 5:14 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 17:14:51 -0400

The reason for the delay is simple. The metric isn't perfected yet.

The swap from Dead Arm Hang to Pull Up (F)* seems like a logical progression, and it is, however is Pull Up (F) a good measure of Physical Fitness (upper body)?

The Marines realized that the PFT is not a good measure of Combat Fitness or Combat Effectiveness, so we developed an ADDITIONAL test, the Combat Fitness Test (CFT).

The PFT however is a good measure of Physical Fitness. We've refined it several times over the years. From personal experience I remember the following changes:

1) Female run being increased from 1.5 miles to 3.0 miles to match males. Females have a 3 minute difference to account for physiological disadvantage.

2) Change from "Kip" (momentum allowed) Pull-up/Chin-up to "Dead Hang" (minimal momentum allowed).

3) Conversion from Sit-ups to crunches, and increase in quantity from 80 to 100.

This is just the latest change. We're constantly refining ALL the standards, not just those that happen to have a gender attached to them.

In the case of Pull-up (F), the 55% number shows that it "may" not be the correct standard, or it "may" need better training, or just further research.

As for equality, whenever we talk about Physical Fitness, equality becomes a VERY Subjective concept. All we can do is "normalize" the scoring to make it as fair or as equal as possible based on the effort expended by class of people.

*Pull Up (F) to denote the Female standard of Min 3, max 8, as compared to the current Male standard of Min 3, max 20.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Jun 10 at 2015 6:45 PM

Cpl Jeff N. — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 18:45:32 -0400

The answer is pretty simple and using the Occam's razor theory it is that they will not like the results so the implementation is delayed. Pull ups measure your upper body strength relative to your weight (you are moving you). You can either pull yourself up three times or you cannot. Given a year or more to prepare you are without excuse if you cannot do so.

If 55% failed it would embarrass those pushing for women can do whatever a man can story. Today, if a man cannot do three, he is on remedial PT and in a world of hurt because he just failed his PFT.

There is no such thing as a perfect metric. Looking for it is a fools errand. Three pull ups is minimal. Should we reduce it to 1 to allow more to pass? We would have to reduce men to 1 too, not going to happen.

The story talks about needing time to learn. What is there to learn. You grab the bar and pull up. Not hard to learn.

The other reality is a man that can only do three pull ups likely will not survive in an infantry unit. That is not enough upper body strength relative to your size/weight, period. It might be a passing score but it is not an indicator of success in the infantry.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 11 at 2015 8:21 AM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 11 Jun 2015 08:21:13 -0400

We had to do pull-ups as part of my "Physical Conditioning" class I had in high school. On a good day I could knock out 12. Some guys could do more, some less. Even the girls in my class (some of whom weren't in any kind of shape) could do at least 2.

I think it's just a matter of getting your body accustomed to doing pull-ups. 3 really aren't that much when you think about it.

I think the real hold-up is that in switching from the dead-arm hang to pull-ups will somehow lower female PFT scores, though I could be wrong as I'm not a Marine and therefore am not completely familiar with their PFT scoring standards.

Response by SPC David Hannaman made Jul 1 at 2015 9:19 AM

SPC David Hannaman — Wed, 01 Jul 2015 09:19:03 -0400

Wait-a-minute... did you say **THREE** pull ups? Three, or Thirty? Is that some sort of typo?

I'm sorry, I understand that women and men are built differently, but there are certain things that a Service member just needs to be able to do... like throw a hand grenade far enough so that you don't blow yourself up... or drag yourself out of a rolled over truck...

If there's an MOS out there that GUARANTEES that the service member will NEVER be in a situation where they will have to face danger (keep in mind the Navy shipyard shooting a few years back) then it should be left to civilian workers.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Aug 26 at 2015 6:32 PM

Capt Jeff S. — Wed, 26 Aug 2015 18:32:01 -0400

Minimum pullups was 4 when I got out, and if you can only do 4 pullups, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Looks like they lowered the standards for women. 55% can't even do 3 pullups.

I've been saying they were going to lower standards and dang if it isn't happening. They pretend to level the field to try to turn women into combat soldiers, but they can't do it because women simply aren't men -- no matter how much they think they are. Nature made men and women different -- FOR A REASON!

We should accept that we are different and figure out how to best use our strengths to accomplish the mission. Women are better multitaskers and do well in office environments. They do well in Supply and most maintenance jobs. Most women can solder better than men because they have the patience to work on small things that require dexterity and attention to detail. Putting women in these kinds of jobs frees up males to do the heavy lifting. You are not better off throwing a 200lb Marine in the office and sending the 110lb female to a mortar platoon and making her hump the base plate, along with the rest of her equipment, up and down hills.

No matter how you try to spin it, it's a waste of taxpayer dollars trying to turn the military into a social experiment. You can either have the world's most elite and finest fighting force, or you can have women in combat. You can't have it both ways.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 2:59 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Oct 2015 14:59:08 -0400

Pull ups aren't the only difference, females also have max points for a 21 minute 3 mile run, whereas males must complete it in 18 minutes for max points. Yes I think the same standards should apply to all. Not necessarily keeping only the male or only the female standards. Since "equality" is the issue here, all standards should be the same.

Response by Cpl Sabrina L. made Oct 29 at 2015 5:01 PM

Cpl Sabrina L. — Thu, 29 Oct 2015 17:01:51 -0400

THERE IS "Equality" and the perception of equality, doing it right is what matters...not how fast one can PRETEND... to lead...