Why are Sailors upset about move to Naval Occupation Specialties (NOS)? I've always addressed POs by rank and last name; none complained.

2016-10-24T16:26:59-04:00

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Oct 24 at 2016 5:10 PM

2016-10-24T17:10:14-04:00

I had heard about the NCOER, but nothing about this MOS/NOS thing. Do you have an article on it? Having not read anything on it, I can only assume that it is something to do with change and everyone is not very open to it in the military regardless of branch. The Army went through a Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) change just about a decade ago and folks had a lot of problems with it, but it actually turned out oaky as it aligned the officer MOS, with the warrant officer MOS and the enlisted MOS. Perhaps it is something similar.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 6:33 PM

2016-10-24T18:33:56-04:00

I am glad I am out. 1985. CMSgt Donald Felch

Response by MSgt James Mullis made Oct 24 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-10-24T19:15:24-04:00

Really Chief...You don't understand? I'm staggered!

Response by PO3 David Fries made Oct 24 at 2016 7:18 PM

2016-10-24T19:18:36-04:00

I always find it amusing when people that don't know anything about the issue talk about it as if they do. Granted, the question was asked, but some of the replies have been telling.

It's really simple, we are proud of our rates and of our heritage. Our rate and our rank are part of our identity. It's not much different than an another service and their rank and MOS.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Oct 24 at 2016 7:31 PM

2016-10-24T19:31:07-04:00

CMSgt Donald Felch I'd also like to address the second sentence. The reason that no sailor ever complained when you addressed them by their rank and name is because most people in the Navy don't expect others to k ow what our rates are. The only exception may be Corpsman, but that's not even always the case. Of course most of us (Corpsman) are fine with just Doc anyway.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 7:51 PM

2016-10-24T19:51:01-04:00

Because its a huge part of our heritage and tradition. Its older that 241 years, this carried over from the Royal Navy. This is the biggest reason in my opinion. Just walk onto any ship and see how much pride a Sailor has in their rating. Every shop door usually has the rating symbol for the Sailors that work there.

The reason of the intense anger is the way we were told. There was virtually no warning this was coming; plus there is no defined plan to implement this, and the news was released right after the last MCPON left office, and the the "benefits" from this do not in most Sailor's eyes seem like they needed to remove rating titles to implement. Also in my opinion there are so many other, more important issues that need addressing in the Navy right now from top leadership.

As to you second statement: no Sailor ever would. We even use generic rank titles among ourselves when we don't know someone, they are nothing new. We would expect someone from another service to use our generic titles and have no understanding of our rating system, but thats ok, there will always be things each service has unique to them that the others won't understand.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 24 at 2016 8:06 PM

2016-10-24T20:06:08-04:00

They are stripping away our identities, our traditions, our connection with those who came before and will come after. Every Sailor takes pride in the symbol of their rating. More Sailors probably have a tattoo of their rating somewhere, than don't. Now, they're just taking it all away with no warning and very little explanation.

Response by PO2 Marty Sharpe made Oct 24 at 2016 8:48 PM

2016-10-24T20:48:02-04:00

First it is not rank. In the navy it is rate. Rating is the specialty.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Oct 24 at 2016 9:47 PM

2016-10-24T21:47:24-04:00

Two words, pride and tradition.

Response by Maj John Bell made Oct 24 at 2016 9:54 PM

2016-10-24T21:54:34-04:00

They don't complain when people outside the Navy do it. But There is some pride an tradition in being called Boatswain's Mate (pronounced bosun) 1st Class.

Edit: When aboard ship I tried to learn the ratings, and made an effort to use them as recognition of the effort those sailors put into acquiring their skills. My only exception, an FMF corpsman is always "Doc".

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2016 10:35 PM

2016-10-24T22:35:58-04:00

If I had to guess I would say it takes away a large portion of their personal identity within the Navy. While on ship I found that the social structure was built almost entirely on the rates of the sailors and the only time you would see them mix is when it had to do with mission accomplishment. To be fair all services tend to behave this way, it simplifies day to day social interaction. In the Marine Corps we are taught to call sailors by their rates (IS2, IT1, CS3 etc.) with the exception of HMs who are almost always called Doc, this allowed us to differentiate between what functions that sailor served. There is always going to be friction when trying to make a change of this magnitude but like anything else in the military, the outcry will fade with the next generation and soon nobody will know what the hell an HM1 was or why it mattered.

Response by LTC John Mohor made Oct 24 at 2016 10:39 PM

2016-10-24T22:39:45-04:00

CMSgt Donald Felch I hope after all the posts now you understand!

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 12:33 AM

2016-10-25T00:33:51-04:00

We will answer to "Petty Officer", but we have always held our ratings closet to our heart. I have always answered to IT2 - however, now, I am having one hell of a time answering the phone as "Petty Officer Martin".

Response by PO3 Christopher Jonah Nelson made Oct 25 at 2016 1:14 AM

2016-10-25T01:14:33-04:00

I always saw the ratings, AC3 (ex.), to be more of an informal title. When speaking with outside persons, my commands always used Chief, Petty Officer, or Airman. We never felt the need to use our ratings, and honestly we never even really saw the need to call ourselves Third/Second/First Class.

Internally, of course, we had a much more formal structure that was much stricter, but did not include any part of our rank or ratings at all, but rather our callsigns and, during interfacility communications, the facility that those callsigns orginated.

I don't see this hurting the Navy at all, and honestly tradition is great, but which violates tradition more:
Having rates added every two years and then removed again and having to restructure everybody every time?
Or...
Having everyone called by a uniform rank system that's been in place since the inception of the Navy as the formal ranking structure and making it possible to make everyone's jobs more diverse?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 3:55 AM

2016-10-25T03:55:48-04:00

This is the response I got from a friend of mine whose in the Navy. "On a ship, especially carriers, calling Petty Officer 1st Class Smith is going to get 50 dudes showing up... but if you called HT1 Smith (Hull Technician 1st Class Petty Officer), you may only get 1-2 people.
"

Response by CPO Mike Anderson made Oct 25 at 2016 6:00 AM

2016-10-25T06:00:16-04:00

241 years of tradition being wiped out with a stroke of pen.

Response by CPO Mike Anderson made Oct 25 at 2016 6:02 AM

2016-10-25T06:02:43-04:00

241 years of tradition being wiped out with a stroke of pen. You could tell what the job of the person was just by knowing his rating, you didn't have to ask him for his code. The navy is different from the other services in this respect.

Response by PO1 Tracy Dreyer made Oct 25 at 2016 6:18 AM

2016-10-25T06:18:22-04:00

So I guess now it won't be "Corpsman up!". It will be "7364 up!" (no idea what the new codeing would be, made the number up)

Response by SCPO Don Baker made Oct 25 at 2016 7:29 AM

2016-10-25T07:29:57-04:00

It almost always comes down to tradition in the Navy. Mainly, I believe it going to effect the first class and below. To be called ex. "Boats" or "Guns" has been an earned honor. Chiefs and above will be addressed the way they have always been. Could be the way for former SecNav, Mrs. Mabus and ex-E9ON Stevenson to say, "screw you!".

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 7:55 AM

2016-10-25T07:55:42-04:00

Chief, when I read that I was no longer an IS1 in the Navy Times I honestly thought it was an April Fools joke. This was just sprung on us with absolutely zero warning. Ratings date back well over a hundred years and have become a source of pride that you have joined that community. Just ask a Gunner's Mate what he or she loves about the rating and they will probably tell you that it is the second oldest rating in the Navy behind Yeoman (administrative types) and that the very first Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy was a Gunner's Mate. That's pride and a real connection to history. They learned that shortly after basic training while in A School when their Navy ballcaps were still spotless and their pride at finally earning the title "sailor" hadn't yet faded. Earning the title Gunner's Mate was likely their second major accomplishment in the Navy. Now they belonged to the community of GMs and that pride was so palpable that many would get tattoos of the crossed cannons that symbolize the Gunner's Mate. It's a part of our identity that was just stripped away without any warning.

Everybody in the Navy has grown accustomed to addressing enlisted by their rate. If I was introduced to a new sailor IT3 Schmuckatelly, I knew in just three letters and numbers that he is a basically trained Information Techology Specialist AND that he is a green NCO. Likewise if I met BM1 Hardcharger I knew instantly that he is a basically trained Boatswains Mate and an experienced one at that. Bottom line is that the system made sense to us in the Navy because we were exposed to it from the earliest days. Twelve years later I still remember referring to my Recruit Division Commander as AE1 Kammerad and my recruiter as ABM2 Hopper. I learned quickly what that alphabet soup meant and knew that my RDC was in aviation electrical systems and my recruiter was an aircraft handler. Basically the system worked FOR US.

Now whenever I worked in a joint environment I never took offense to someone calling me Petty Officer because that to was right and proper. I would never expect a soldier or airman to understand our system. Even from a fellow sailor calling us petty officer was ok because you may not have been introduced and not know his or her rating yet. But referring to me as IS1 to me says I'm a member of your team and you can count on me to deliver intel when you need it. You don't have to ask what a B123 is. It's a part of my identity that was just wadded up and thrown away. And that is why it is almost universally hated among the rank and file.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:00 AM

2016-10-25T08:00:15-04:00

Heritage and Tradition, along with convenience when crap hits the fan.

We are also use to calling E4 and above by rate/rank; for example: "Hey CTT3" or "Excuse me, IT2". The rate is presented with the class of petty officer. Also when you're in a bind, it was faster than PO1 because you'll have 10 PO1s turn around; when you just say the rate/rank, maybe 2 will turn around. It alleviated stressors and narrowed down people that you need to get in contact with ASAP.

A lot of enlisted sailors are upset over the change, due to a lot of them not really understanding why the whole rating system needed to be changed anyway when there was nothing wrong with it.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2016 8:17 AM

2016-10-25T08:17:19-04:00

This is a way to distinguish people with the same last name and rank as well. It's much easier calling IT2 Smith to a location over the 1MC than it is announcing "Petty Officer Second Class Smith" and then you have the formerly known LS2 Smith, IT2 Smith and OS2 Smith all show up. Yes this could be solved by adding the first name to the announcement but then when it's needed to be done quickly, the rate identifies the NOS with the rank and then you just have the last name. It's a much easier way to address each other. Plus maybe there's only 1 OS1 onboard with the same last name as others. You just say OS1 and everyone knows who you're referring to onboard the ship.

Then there is the 241 years of Naval tradition/heritage that has had the rates. So for over two centuries we have addressed each other this way. Literally overnight they implemented the change with no feedback from the people it would affect. The plan for implementing this is shit as well. Almost every aspect of the Navy depends on what rate you are in and overnight it's gone.

Response by CPO James Clopton made Oct 25 at 2016 8:56 AM

2016-10-25T08:56:26-04:00

In a Marine or Army unit of, say, 300 personnel, how many different MOS' are there? A dozen? On a ship with equivalent manning, there can be more than 50. I was quite often the only IS, working with a couple CTs. A soldier assigned to an engineering unit is probably an engineer; however, a Ship is so much more diversified. Ratings as titles are important for identification.

Response by LCpl Ferdinand Hughes made Oct 25 at 2016 8:58 AM

2016-10-25T08:58:07-04:00

It's easier to look for a PS1 Smith or BM1 Smith instead of PO3 Smith when Smith is a common name in the Navy. I have already run into that problem already. I was transferred four times before I connected with the right Smith.

Response by PO2 Drew Brown made Oct 25 at 2016 9:26 AM

2016-10-25T09:26:56-04:00

The concern isn't the new system, but rather the discarding of the system that has predated the founding of the Nation without careful and cautious forethought, allowing literally everything about the Navy to hang in the wind. Ratings in the Navy were written into the fabric of the service, and the abrupt change without communicating clear purpose and course was a serious misstep.

Response by LCDR Larry Franco made Oct 25 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-10-25T10:26:35-04:00

The sailor's comments before mine articulate perfectly why changing this tradition, going back to the age of sail, can only have a deleterious effect upon the naval service. BZ for defending our customs and tradition shipmates!

Response by PO1 Stephen McDermott made Oct 25 at 2016 10:36 AM

2016-10-25T10:36:03-04:00

What the rating does do is it provides IDENTITY. Our ratings may change over time and some don't make sense (like why Machinist's Mates run and fix the ships underway and Machinery Repairmen machine spare parts). But it's our identity. I have more in common with MMCM or MMFN than I do with a generic PO1. EVERY enlisted person has a chance to be a PO or a CPO, not everyone can be a MM (or OS, or AT, etc.). It's our little group - we may not serve in similar ships, see the same things, or do the same job, but we understand each other.

I'll always be a Nuke MM. Now it's some weird ass number that I don't care what it is, and no one is going to remember when the reactor plant is losing pressure and they need someone to fight it NOW.
They'll just ask PO1 (who's a YN).

s/MM1(SS)

Response by PO3 Peter Lothrop made Oct 25 at 2016 1:06 PM

2016-10-25T13:06:34-04:00

Please refer to answer above I did not see my comment at first and posted it a 2nd time no need to say the same thing twice! Sorry

Response by PO3 Peter Lothrop made Oct 25 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-10-25T13:07:48-04:00

Because it is what separates the sailors from each other and it identifies everyone. Let me give you an example. I was an Aviation Machinist mate (AD) so I worked in a hanger with all the different Aviation rates. So if my chief says to me go see AE1 Jones and find out status on 223. I knew what he wanted me to do was to go to the electric shop and ask Petty Officer 1st class Jones the status of aircraft 223. Now lets take away the AE part and the chief says go find PO1 Jones and find out the status of 223. Where do I go? How do I know what shop PO1 Jones works in if I am not told in the instructions? So you see by having rates it makes it easier to do our jobs.

Response by PO3 Terry Miller made Oct 25 at 2016 1:45 PM

2016-10-25T13:45:33-04:00

It's part of who we are, or in the case of us veterans, who we were. It's more identifying than Petty Officer. It acknowledges that we know our specialty well enough to have earned the right to wear that identifying mark. There is nothing wrong with being addressed as Petty Officer Miller because no one would have addressed me as Sonar Technician Miller anyway unless they were specifically looking for Sonar Technicians. How we are to be addressed is not the issue. Identity is the issue and rate is an important part of who we are in the Navy.

Response by CPO Zack Lindsey made Oct 25 at 2016 2:14 PM

2016-10-25T14:14:54-04:00

I believe the reason they did not ask or talk to anyone in the fleet was they knew what the out come was going to before they even ask. And they did not want the opinion from anyone cause there ( the UPPER COMMAND HAD ALLREADY MADE UP THERE MIND WHAT WAS GOING TO BE DONE ) and they where just passing it down. Here it is take we know you will not like but we do not care.

Response by CPO Jack De Merit made Oct 25 at 2016 3:24 PM

2016-10-25T15:24:10-04:00

The reason is very simple. The navy trains and employs more than 90 individual occupations. If you need a Corpsman in an emergency, and you grab a Yeoman, it could cost someone their life. It is nearly impossible for the Officers to know every man's specialty off the top of their heads. If the Captain wants a Yeoman to take dictation who would know which sailor to grab? How would you recognize an Aviation type as opposed to a Submariner? Unlike ALL the other branches except the Coast Guard, we train anything and everything to be the best they can at their trade and highly employable when they are discharged. We do all this AND fight for our country.

Response by CPO David Sharp made Oct 25 at 2016 3:51 PM

2016-10-25T15:51:52-04:00

Having been a Company Chief, when I call out Petty Officer "Smith", "Jones" or even "Sharp" I may have 6 personnel report. Now by calling BU2 Jones from X squad, etc. I can get a the person I wish to address. It is time to stop the P.C. and merging of Branches. The Navy has run very effectively on its' mission for many years under the current fashion. Don't fix what isn't broken.

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Oct 25 at 2016 8:15 PM

2016-10-25T20:15:01-04:00

Example, You are looking to learn how to tie mooring lines. You need to talk to a BM (Boatswain's Mate) not an AC (Air Traffic Controller) like me. But if you wanted to know what the Separation between aircraft on approach to a LHD (Amphibious Assault Ship) during Case 3 recovery, you would not ask a Boatswain's Mate (one of the oldest rates in the Navy, if not the oldest). Also see the Navy Times cartoon below.

Response by PO1 Kevin Arnold made Oct 25 at 2016 11:57 PM

2016-10-25T23:57:08-04:00

Well for when others from another service call me Petty Officer I understand. They don't know Navy Ratings; however, I would be more upset about it when a fellow Sailor did that. For one I had to go to school for what I learned. Second I had to prove that I could do the job. Third I have to train others for the next level or pay grade. Fourth it would be easier to keep what has been around for 240 years then having to know what numbers mean. Pretty soon we wil start having to put those numbers on us like we are in a prison. So now it will be interesting i could of been a quad zero or whatever number they give me instead of a Yeoman First Class Petty Officer (Submarine Service).

Response by PO1 Milton Wiseman made Oct 26 at 2016 12:16 PM

2016-10-26T12:16:11-04:00

Tradition, it is a Navy thing. So much BS flows from the CNO and his lap dog MCPO of the Navy that no one can keep up. Sailors work and train hard to become what ever their rating is, just more destruction of naval tradition. It is a unique service with old traditions and as such need to be left alone.

Response by PO3 William Largent made Oct 27 at 2016 12:27 AM

2016-10-27T00:27:41-04:00

As a Seabee equipment operator , I believe that there is not as big of mystique that comes with a sailors rating as does a fleet or air squad sailor. Being a Seabee it is what it is , it stands out from the rest. We can and do have our insignia embroidered on our BDU left breast pocket which no other navy rate does.
When on deployment we are not married to our rate and help with all other rates as needed which makes us unique in our own way.
But I do empathize with the rest of my shipmates and agree that it is total bullshit to just change such a prideful tradition that makes our navy so great.
And I also agree with the chief's statements below that it's a waist of navy time and money to even discuss such a change.

Response by SGT David Baker made Oct 27 at 2016 6:46 AM

2016-10-27T06:46:27-04:00

I guess y'all would be really peeved if the US Military was reorganized on the Chinese model. It is my understanding that the people on their ships are in the naval branch of the People's Liberation ARMY (which name contains two lies in my opinion).

Response by CPO Norman Mauldin made Nov 1 at 2016 7:11 AM

2016-11-01T07:11:53-04:00

Amongst sailor it is an identifier, similar to being SACumcised. We also address our juniors and superiors by the job title. An example is if you have a admin assistant or Yeoman who is an E-5, we would commonly refer to them as YN2. If in formation or a gathering it makes it easier to get someone's attention. Many of us take extreme pride int the job we do and our field of expertise and appreciate being recognized for that. Plus if you refer to a sailor as an E-5 or especially an E-7 you will probably be schooled very quickly as to the difference. - MMC(SW)

Response by PO2 Paul Smith made Nov 1 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-11-01T08:55:34-04:00

I was a CTM for ten years. We have a nickname known primarily inside the Security Group as MATMAN. We are proud of that tradition. An earlier attempt to eliminate CTM was also a failure and the rate was brought back/not eliminated. When we talk to other sailors we relate to them through their rate not as petty officers. It is tradition and there is strength in tradition.

Response by PO1 Charles Norris made Nov 1 at 2016 9:01 AM

2016-11-01T09:01:55-04:00

This is one more way of our "leadership" stripping us of our connection to our past. In the name of political correctness, many traditions have been taken away and now they take our rate. THE thing that any other sailor can use to identify our skill and expertise. The traditions were the one thing that kept us connected to our heritage. The thing that sailors could use to say "I'm a part of that!" and now those are gone.
This decision shows beyond a reasonable doubt that our leadership does not have any idea about your average sailor that keeps the fleet cruisin right along and they are out of touch with sailors.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2016 9:47 AM

2016-11-01T09:47:47-04:00

As a separated ET2 (Electronics technician second class), my rating badge was a symbol of heritage that I was lucky enough to share with remarkable men and women who served before me. In dress, it clearly marks a specific branch of specialty that a sailor has undergone training and testing and most are proud of. What's next, getting rid of warfare pins?

Response by LCDR Kevin Dean made Nov 1 at 2016 9:48 AM

2016-11-01T09:48:35-04:00

(Deleted Duplicate Response)

Response by LCDR Kevin Dean made Nov 1 at 2016 9:49 AM

2016-11-01T09:49:10-04:00

(Deleted Duplicate Response)

Response by PO1 Shawn Blalock made Nov 1 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-11-01T09:56:46-04:00

Because you work hard for that mos in navy . Any one can be a PO1 but not anyone can BM1

Response by LCDR Kevin Dean made Nov 1 at 2016 10:13 AM

2016-11-01T10:13:46-04:00

I spent more than 13 years as a very proud member of one of the smallest, newest (est. 1979), and most diverse ratings in the Navy, and I am deeply saddened/troubled that my beloved rating has now been replaced by some random catalog number. Hospital Corpsmen (HMs) had a long and noble history of service within Marine Corps units, and Religious Program Specialists (RPs; of which I was one), had finally begun to gain some traction as another integral piece in the USMC/USN team. When I first served with II MAW during Desert Storm, we RPs were regularly mistaken as Corpsmen (because that had previously been the only Navy rating most Marines had ever known to serve in their own uniform). Now, most Marines know to check the left collar before they automatically call “green” sailors “Doc,” because they know they just might be addressing an RP instead. But to think that all of that hard work establishing name-recognition and a decent reputation within the Corps (all of my RP billets were with the Marines) has now been essentially vaporized at the whim of what I can only assume is some remote PowerPoint-jockey in DC, it's just heartbreaking.

Response by SCPO Wayne Clark made Nov 1 at 2016 10:25 AM

2016-11-01T10:25:01-04:00

There's continuing erosion of tradition for political expediency. The reality is that the Navy could shift to a NOS system, without losing rates. Removing rates was simply the shortest distance to gender neutrality in titles. It's one more in a long line of fixing things that aren't in need of it, while not dealing with things that matter...like a whole class of ships that aren't working (LCS).

Response by PO1 Brian Wool made Nov 1 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-11-01T10:26:45-04:00

Even before I joined in 1989, Sailors have always called each other by their Rate (Occupational Specialty) and rank. This happens more so in the Petty Officer ratings. I was a Quartermaster (QM) First Class. I was usually addressed as QM1 - rarely, very rarely would I be called petty officer. And to me, the title Petty Officer sounds rather degrading - and comes from our Old English Sailing Brethren. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petty_officer So to have something distinct as our former naming convention is a tradition that all Sailors from the past can to relate to and hold a little bit of tradition for the future Sailors. Otherwise, why are we the only service not to have privates, Sgt, CMSgt, Captains (0-3), Majors (0-4) and Colonels (Birds)??

Petty officer - Wikipedia

A petty officer (PO) is a non-commissioned officer in many navies and is given the NATO rank denotion OR-6. They are equal in rank to sergeant in the British Army and Royal Air Force. A petty officer is superior in rank to leading rate and subordinate to chief petty officer, in the case of the British armed forces.

Response by SCPO Lonny Randolph made Nov 1 at 2016 10:59 AM

2016-11-01T10:59:54-04:00

When you address me on board ship you address me as Senior Chief Randolph which is perfectly correct, when I identify myself in writing or in other official correspondence I am ENCS(SW) Randolph. It matters - I'm not just some E-8, I am a specialist in the ENGINEMAN rating and I fall within the top 2% of Navy personnel within that rating. It is a distinction that I earned as is the distinction earned by every Sailor within his/her rating. Our rating badges declare who we are, what we do and the traditions and training that we have undergone.

I spent the first 4 months of my career just learning to be an ENGINEMAN, and then the next 4 months going to C School to specialize in EMD diesel engines. Over the remainder of my career I completed a wide range of additional training specific to my rating and I carry a veritable string of NEC's (Navy Enlisted Classifications) to document those additional skills. Before I made 3rd Class I was a FIREMAN not a SEAMAN, we work in engineering not on the deck. Our ratings are a proud part of our heritage and they are earned through years of hard work and dedication. Without them we might as well all be a bunch of "sailors" without sails. Every rating has it's own traditions and lore, Boatwain's Mates like to brag that they are the oldest rate in the Navy and in fact are usually issued a boatswain's pipe when they make rate; many of the newer IT ratings like to brag on the complexity of their ratings; folks in my rating are proud that we work in hot, humid, noisy engineering spaces 18 hours a day at sea. Our rating insignia signals to everyone in the Navy who we are, what we do and what our traditions are. An "NOC" (Not Obvious Chum) is a alpha numeric designator not at all visible to others. How would folks in the Army feel if their special forces folks were no longer allowed to carry a distinctive badge to show their achievement? For us, our rating insignia is the equivalent of other services specialty badging.

Going back to my ENGINEMAN roots - if it ain't broke don't break out the wrenches. ENCS(SW) USN(Ret) completex... Thanks for your service...

Response by CPO Bill Penrod made Nov 1 at 2016 12:39 PM

2016-11-01T12:39:19-04:00

The Navy's history and traditions are gradually being eroded. Unless you're be to sea for several months you will never understand why we had crossing the line ceremonies and mail about watches. Those traditions are fading fast because of political pressures. At least one thing has not changed I'm still called Doc and Marines are still Riflemen.........!!!

Response by CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter made Nov 1 at 2016 1:09 PM

2016-11-01T13:09:22-04:00

We would never complain to someone outside the Navy. If I told you I was a AMEC you would have no idea what it meant, but to a sailor it tells him a lot about me. In my time I have seen the Navy do alot of dumbass things but this tops the list.

Response by PO1 John Williams made Nov 1 at 2016 1:21 PM

2016-11-01T13:21:01-04:00

Generally you can tell immediately what their primary training is. I left in 73, but I would think it is still good. I discovered (as a YN1 E-6) a fire in a locked compartment (very hot bulkheads) and a little smoke coming out the split door). I knew there was a fuel farm on the other side of that compartment. I immediately starting grabbing sailors and getting water on the bulkheads (even a Ltjg joined in) to keep the fire from spreading or the fuel farm going up. According to regs at the time, I was to maintain control until an E-3 Damage Control sailor got there. When he arrived, I explain the situation and what was going on. He relieved me and I moved back giving him complete command. In a few minutes, more DCs got there, a fire axe broke the door and the DCs entered the compartment and put the fire out.

Response by LCpl Ferdinand Hughes made Nov 1 at 2016 2:12 PM

2016-11-01T14:12:07-04:00

I guess it helps identify the individual sailor. In the same instance, years ago when the Army decided to make all personnel, except Green Berets and Airborne, wear berets. then took it a step further and change the Rangers black berets to the tan. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

Response by PO1 Cliff Heath made Nov 1 at 2016 2:20 PM

2016-11-01T14:20:21-04:00

If you have to ask you wouldn't understand

Response by CPO Johnny Guido made Nov 1 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-11-01T15:43:08-04:00

I am a retired Chief Hospital Corpsman. I was, (and still am) very proud when I received my Cadueus after HM "A" school in 1970. It was at Balboa Naval Hospital in San Diego, Calif. Having a "Rate" gives a sailor his tradition, and a place in his community. I fear that this will be another lost tradition for the USN.

Response by CPO Zack Lindsey made Nov 1 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-11-01T20:49:42-04:00

We would not complain but would say it is gmg2 lindsey, or mm3, or BT1 SMITH, or BMSN etc,etc,etc just letting you know the persons mastake is all in a professional but nice way

Response by PO1 Jeremy Simon made Nov 2 at 2016 3:14 AM

2016-11-02T03:14:47-04:00

I tried very hard to find something in Air Force tradition that would be a good comparison to what the loss of Rates means to the Navy...well after looking at the massively long 69 years the Air Force has been around compared to 241 years of the Navy...it seems the best I could find is this: taking our Rates is like Robin Olds shaving his mustache during Vietnam Nam.

Response by PO2 Steve Te Groen made Nov 2 at 2016 10:26 AM

2016-11-02T10:26:14-04:00

It was easy to know what we did and pride for what we did.

Response by PO1 Nick A made Nov 2 at 2016 12:51 PM

2016-11-02T12:51:27-04:00

Shipmates, I think you're going about this the wrong way. We're pissed because they made a huge change in a hamfisted way with no regard for the unintended consequences. Everyone keeps harping on the killing of traditions, which, once upon a time, meant something. However, in the last 5 years I've observed a deliberate trend by leadership to deemphasize the importance of tradition. The last couple promotion cycles it seems like the message has been traditions are what we say they are, and some just need to go away because thats the world we live in now. if we wanna get this decision reversed we need to emphasize the negative impact this will have on readiness. Leadership in Washington could not care less about your feelings regarding such vague abstractions as 'tradition', 'honor' or 'esprit de corps'. its a new world people, get with the program.

Response by PO2 Nick Burke made Nov 2 at 2016 7:56 PM

2016-11-02T19:56:25-04:00

It looks like this Administration has shown once again that they do not want or care for our input....
They have shown that they think "Know what's best" for us.

Response by PO1 James White made Nov 3 at 2016 1:21 AM

2016-11-03T01:21:30-04:00

(1) Tradition, the navy is unique from other services in their mission (2) If it ain't broke, stop trying to fix it. (3) At an instant you know what a sailor is/does. (4) The Navy isn't the Army, Marines or Air Force.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Nov 3 at 2016 1:40 AM

2016-11-03T01:40:04-04:00

Although I entered the US Air Force My father was a member of the US Navy and was an ET1 was of course quite proud of that rating. Navy traditions including the uniform are things that need to be held onto. This is My Dad when He was stationed at Pearl Harbor NS, TH in the early 1950s. My Dad is now 90 and still in good health.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Nov 7 at 2016 2:22 PM

2016-11-07T14:22:17-05:00

There is a great deal of pride within all five branches of service. Inner-service rivalries are part of our tradition. Its the same rivalry you will see at a typical Army/Navy game. Each branch of service fulfills a specific role with ample overlapping skill levels to bridge any gaps. The many MOS designations and uniforms are examples of your various roles, otherwise why don't we just simply be issued identical uniforms. I appreciate and respect all my brothers and sisters in each branch of service because not only are our roles unique, but our training and skill sets vary. I like the traditional Navy Rating system, and see this change as a political move to satisfy a few voices of decent. Currently I see more in favor of not changing the Navy's rating system, which begs me to ask what is the real motive to make this change?

Response by CDR James Terrell made Nov 7 at 2016 2:43 PM

2016-11-07T14:43:58-05:00

Your rate is the heart of being a sailor. PO3 Meyers says it better than I could.

Response by CPO Johnny Guido made Nov 24 at 2016 8:56 PM

2016-11-24T20:56:11-05:00

I was in the USN for 20 years. I retired as a Chief Hospital Corpsman (HMC) If I lost my rate designation, there might have been a few times that I would not have been able to help a few people because I would not have been tagged as a HM from a crowd. Besides, I am particularly proud of my rate, and the HM community to which I still relate to.

Response by PO3 Peter Lothrop made Dec 22 at 2016 2:32 PM

2016-12-22T14:32:15-05:00

This is GREAT news the Navy has decided to NOT drop all the rate names that we as sailors have come to know and identify with!!

I just read this today in Newsmax In Reversal, Navy Won't Scrap Traditional Job Titles! Navy leaders are dumping a plan announced in September to eliminate dozens of enlisted sailors' job titles, some ending in "man." They said sailors' anger over the changes had become a distraction and they will look for other ways to modernize the system.

"The bottom line is, we're going to preserve all the good, we're going to throw all the distractions overboard and we're going to move on, stay on course," Navy Adm. John Richardson, chief of naval operations, told sailors

Here is a link to the article
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Navy-Job-Titles/2016/12/21/id/765075/?ns_mail_uid=13141965&ns_mail_job=1700858_12212016&s=al&dkt_nbr=umllkpob

In Reversal, Navy Won't Scrap Traditional Job Titles

In the Navy, a corpsman will still be a corpsman. Navy leaders are dumping a plan announced in September to eliminate dozens of enlisted sailors' job titles, some ending in "man." They said sailors' anger over the changes had become a distraction and they will look for other...

Response by CAPT Lyle Brown made Dec 30 at 2016 9:15 AM

2016-12-30T09:15:38-05:00

All the Sailors' comments before mine are relevant, but I would liket o add one other point, which may give someone from another service a different perspective:
In the Navy, we have Sailors of all rates working together in close proximity to achieve a team goal that requires many rate, whereas in other services you are only likely to encounter a few (or even one) MOS together in one task. In the Army,if you are a tanker, everyone you see, day-to-day, is a tanker, likewise for an artilleryman, etc. In the Navy, we need Hull Techs, Sonar Techs, Operational Specialists, Fire Controlmen, Boswains, Quartermasters, Culinary Specialists, etc, all in the same unit (the ship) to carry out the mission. When someone needs work done on the hull, they don't just say "Hey, anyone here work on hull issues?", they say, I need an HT PO to get this taken care of. The same can be said of any other rate.
Due to the mixing of skills and talents required to maintain and fight a ship, knowing who has what skills can be vitally important.