Who here has worn stripes and bars; or has a perspective on the benefit of officers being enlisted first?

COL Lee Flemming — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:03:48 -0400

I have had the privilege of wearing stripes - albeit for just a short period of time. That service and experience helped make me the officer that I am today. Should all officers have to serve time as enlisted? Are there benefits? What shortfalls do you see?

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 20 at 2016 8:09 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:09:40 -0400

I do wonder about that...it prob would have benefited me considerably, on reflection, I guess....

Response by LTC Ed Ross made Aug 20 at 2016 8:09 AM

LTC Ed Ross — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:09:57 -0400

Drafted in 1965, I served one year and 27 days enlisted time before graduating from artillery OCS.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 8:10 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:10:30 -0400

I've met some great Officers who were never NCOs, met some guys I thought were dirt bags that had been an NCO. It is the individual when it boils down to it. Either they will or will not be a good leader and Officer. Can understanding where their joes are coming from help them? I would certainly imagine so. I don't think it's something that necessarily always makes someone a better leader/Officer.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 8:11 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:11:16 -0400

Was E-1 through 8 and O-1 through 3. I think the only difference it made was my own awareness of what the enlisted ranks did and a certain level of respect from enlisted members because they knew I had been there. Note I was E-5 when I got commissioned.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Aug 20 at 2016 8:14 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:14:43 -0400

Actually, I did very seriously almost do it, before I'd gone army ROTC then USAF OTS, I'd looked quite heavily at USCG enlisted as well as Navy enlisted 6-yr electronics and the enlisted 6-yr nuc enlisted program...if I hadn't gotten USAF OTS on my 2nd try after army ROTC, I'd thought to go Navy enlisted, most likely, as my dad had been Navy enlisted as a Grumman tbm avenger aircraft mechanic, then try for Navy OCS and or NUPOC once I'd gone in...that was my thought back then, anyway....

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Aug 20 at 2016 8:38 AM

LTC Stephen C. — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:38:57 -0400

COL Lee Flemming, I enlisted on 9AUG69, made sergeant (E-5), and was commissioned on 16JUN73. Being first enlisted helped me because I had received a great deal of specialized training. I also gained the enlisted perspective.
However, I've known far too many officers that were never enlisted and yet in my estimation, they were superior officers. My opinion is that first being enlisted does not always translate into being a better commissioned officer. SGT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SFC Stephen King made Aug 20 at 2016 8:47 AM

SFC Stephen King — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:47:57 -0400

COL Lee Flemming Great question, I have had the benefit of seeing it first hand with my Father being a mustang in the Navy and feel it was essential to his leadership style and connecting with his NCOs. In my time in service I have seen where the experience has been helpful at times for officers. That being said it is completely up to the individual.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 20 at 2016 8:53 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 08:53:28 -0400

I had two Commanders that started out enlisted, they had the perspective of what the enlisted went through and used that experience during their time in command.

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Aug 20 at 2016 9:01 AM

MAJ Byron Oyler — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:01:48 -0400

I do think in AMEDD it makes a difference, especially if you were a 91 series before commissioning. We have scope of practice questions all the time and having done the enlisted training, I know what is in and what is out. I did have a difficult time when I first commissioned as I think 24 years ago I respected officers more than what is now and if i saw an NCO or an officer doing something I considered my job, I jumped up and did. I expected the same when I was a 2LT and found myself to be expecting too much from my the young soldiers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 9:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:05:16 -0400

Some of the best Officers that I served with were prior enlisted. They had a grasp of how things worked and the lane difference between NCO's and Officers. The most difficult ones were from West Point.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Aug 20 at 2016 9:16 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:16:07 -0400

There have been good officers and bad who were commissioned by every path. I doubt that the method made the difference though it most assuredly had an influence on their performance. If someone were able to prove that one was best the others would be abandoned. Thus I expect we'll always have both good and bad.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 20 at 2016 9:25 AM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 09:25:34 -0400

I did the E-1 to E-4 thing and then O-1 on up. The most significant thing about it was learning from the get go the necessity and effectiveness of the NCO community. As a JO, new NCOs were shocked that I wanted them to do their job and that I'd tolerate variation in style points. Then they'd see me in a uniform that required ribbons and the dots connected.

The other thing you get into early is habits. Aboard ship, if you see a piece of trash on the deck, you pick it up. Got some looks from ENLs when I was doing that later on as an O-5. Same goes for stepping aside when a sailor was carrying a load down the passageway.

The recognition of career progression as something that doesn't happen on its own because I had to work it in both environments. So when I ultimately had my own commands, I'd make sure the NCOs were involved in effectively rating their subordinates and that they knew my SEL was the go-to in quickly taking care of issues that came up with the troops. They also knew that I didn't want to know how things got done, just that they did and the ENLs were well taken care of. I can't think of the number of times when I told myself that the Seabee, Chief, JO, etc. did a better job than I would have done because they were better at it. That's why it takes so many specialties and skill sets to be effective. Just stay the hell out of their way and marvel at the results.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Aug 20 at 2016 10:02 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 10:02:56 -0400

27 years enlisted E7 when I took my butter bar 4 years ago. I don't know if it made me any better at what I do. I do know it was easier getting things done as a crusty MSGT than an LT.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 11:47 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 11:47:13 -0400

I think it's important to know as much about an organization from the ground up. I think we all agree that prior enlisted time is value added. That said, there are some gifted officers that just know how to get things done and influence people in a positive way; some were prior enlisted and some were not. So how much prior enlisted time is necessary IOT be beneficial?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 11:52 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 11:52:29 -0400

The flip side of that is where I found myself early on as an officer. I was a HM3 (FMF), very junior NCO but LOVED my job and was a bit too moto. As an officer, in a different branch I looked at everything from the aspect of a young NCO trying to get things done from a Navy/Marine Corps perspective. I had to learn how to be an officer and I'm very sure I irritated a few people before I learned that lesson. I've actually apologized to them when/if I meet them later in life.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 12:01 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:01:39 -0400

I just put on my butter bar this past week but I was enlisted for more than 14 years before I took a break in service to go back to school. I don't have a lot officer experience to draw from obviously. I do think the enlisted experience can help with perspective, as long as you "remember where you came from." However, I also don't think being prior enlisted guarantees one will be a good officer. In many ways they're different skill sets and often require different management styles. Some prior enlisted thrive when they become O's, but others flounder. I'm really hoping I'm one of the former.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 12:17 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:17:46 -0400

It would be nice but some ppl are d bags so it really wouldn't matter

Response by Col Rebecca Lorraine made Aug 20 at 2016 12:20 PM

Col Rebecca Lorraine — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 12:20:02 -0400

I spent my first three years as enlisted and it changed my perspective when I was later commissioned. I was much more aware of what the enlisted actually do and think over a brand new second lieutenant. It's a great way to learn about the military without having to be in charge from day one. Prior enlisted officers also seem to have greater respect of enlisted as they emerged from the enlisted ranks. That could be just my experience.

Response by MAJ David Brand made Aug 20 at 2016 1:13 PM

MAJ David Brand — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 13:13:58 -0400

I started out as a Private and retired a Major. Enjoyed my time as both - but my time as an enlisted man most definitely helped me to be a better leader. It takes all kinds but I am happy with my career and how I was able to use all of my learning and training to be a better Soldier! This photo is me in a time long ago - but not so far away! My time in the 2/75 laid the foundation for the 20 years that followed! Thanks for the chance to share!

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Aug 20 at 2016 2:43 PM

Capt Michael Greene — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 14:43:48 -0400

I served 10 years enlisted. I loved it. My E days were great fun and my knuckle-dragging days were professionally and personally rewarding. I loved being on the front line against communism.

Also, those 10 years were a big mistake. Cost me a million dollars in lost retirement income, as it became impossible to be promoted past captain--in my particular career field and service at the time. However, I have friends who served only one hitch enlisted, and made full bird.

The mustangs I served with were a mixed lot. All were popular and praised, but some never crossed over mentally from E to O. In fact, I saw one failed retread 1LT revert back to SSGT (yes, it can be done). Another prior enlisted 2LT never accepted the responsibility nor took the initiative required of leadership.

On the flip side, the non-enlisted officers were also a mixed bag. Some 2LTs are unnecessarily scared to death of SNCOs (and not all SNCOs are dedicated). Many LTs have unrealistic expectations of their SMs. I found the academy grads to be the extreme: Some were really great leaders, but on average as a group, they were literally dumber than the ROTC grads (I have numerical proof).

So my conclusion is that it takes all kinds. The command benefits from having a diverse pool of officers to meet its various needs. My personal advice: We would all be best served if O's started out as E's, but only for, say, 2-3 years.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 4:19 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 16:19:09 -0400

I recently submitted a Commissioning package and am awaiting the results in October. I wholeheartedly believe that my prior enlisted time will serve me well. The very best Officers I've ever met (with the exception one one Academy grad who I believe will one day be the CNO), have been of the absolute best quality. Our previous CO and CSO and our current CO were all prior enlisted and up for Admiral. If you understand your men and women at the bottom, the work horses of the military, you can make better leadership decisions. You will better understand appropriate disciplinary action and how those men and women think and operate. I also think it helps "bridge the divide" so to speak. Instead of blatantly walking around like a "better than you" Officer (we've all met them), you can interact with your people on a more eye to eye level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 8:17 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 20:17:09 -0400

Remembering where you came from is effective, but knowing where you are going matters more. I say it is easier to tolerate a mediocre officer lacking experience than a marginal NCO despite years of service. I am proud to have started as a Private and that experience certainly shaped me.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2016 10:34 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 22:34:38 -0400

Mucho benefit. Far too many to tell in a media forum such as this.

The hardest part was (likely still is) remembering that I am not an NCO anymore. I have gotten better, but I know that I pissed off my first PSG several times until I got it figured out.

I have remind myself of this phrase "1SG, can you fix this."

Response by CW2 Louis Melendez made Aug 20 at 2016 10:45 PM

CW2 Louis Melendez — Sat, 20 Aug 2016 22:45:07 -0400

Yes Sir,

It would be beneficial to the individual and any organization (Unit) if any Officer Candidate starts its career as Enlisted before transitioning to an Officer.

This provides experience and can definitely give anybody thinking on going to the Officer a better understanding and preparation for those though decisions that they will make in the future.

I get it, the system have always been like it is right now when it comes to Commissioning. But that doesn't mean that it is good. I think that something must be done to improve the quality of Officers that join our ranks. Not everybody holding a degree is good for the military...

Now, a shortfall could be the inability to transition from Enlisted mentality and let NCO's take care of NCO's business.

Good topic Sir!, I've personally meditated about this same question. I completed two years of ROTC before deciding to Enlist and wondered why more people don't do the SMP program or just Enlist to know how does it feels to start from the bottom...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2016 7:06 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Aug 2016 07:06:04 -0400

Yes they do, how can you take a male or female straight out of partying and sitting in a classroom and put them Incharge of combat vets. No, that's obsurd and it shouldn't be that way.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Aug 21 at 2016 10:00 AM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Sun, 21 Aug 2016 10:00:55 -0400

The most important thing I learned from my enlisted service is that the troops are quick and perceptive. As I used to counsel the officers I worked with "You cannot bullshit the troops." That means know your job and understand theirs. It means the only place you don't go first is the chow line. First in the air and last off the ground.

Response by SGT David T. made Aug 22 at 2016 8:10 AM

SGT David T. — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 08:10:22 -0400

Honestly, it is hit or miss. Some of the best officers I served with were prior enlisted. However, some of the worst ones were as well. It all depends on the person.

Response by SSgt Paul Esquibel made Aug 22 at 2016 11:49 AM

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 11:49:24 -0400

I can say within the AF I have seen pro's and con's to prior enlisted to officer corp. I would say for those that were an NCO prior to officer they gain the most experience to deal with situations better, because while not all but most have been in similar situations where they subjected to perhaps a bias opinion when dealing with a situation. However younger enlisted E-4 and below really have not developed the leadership qualities that can then be used within the officer corp more effectively, again not all but I see that the defining line between prior enlisted is how far they went up before crossing over.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2016 4:26 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Aug 2016 16:26:42 -0400

I think in order to become a commissioned officer, you should have to serve a 2-year term as an enlisted. The best officers I have ever served under were Mustangs. They understand the needs of the force far better than the officers who were never enlisted.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 23 at 2016 5:48 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 23 Aug 2016 17:48:49 -0400

I personally served with many Officers who were first enlisted form the grade of Private through Sergeant First Class. I cannot say that it made them a better Officer but I can say it provided them with a different perspective of the NCO's they worked with. Keep in mind that a former NCO would not go too far as an Officer as they would have served to many years enlisted. Those Officers who were former enlisted persons and made it to Col. or above usually made the transition as E4 or below, heading to a Prep school or otherwise.

Finally, a good Officer would have been a good Officer with or without being enlisted, and a not so good Officer would not be any better had they been enlisted.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Sep 2 at 2016 4:31 PM

Cpl Rc Layne — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:31:03 -0400

The absolute best officer in every worked for was a Mustang, as was the absolute worst. I believe it's the quality of the person that matters most.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 2 at 2016 4:45 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:45:40 -0400

If i ran the services when you hit e-7 you would declare youre desired career path for your next promotion, WO1, 2ndLt, MSgt or 1stSgt.

Response by COL William Oseles made Sep 2 at 2016 5:37 PM

COL William Oseles — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 17:37:14 -0400

I spend 3 years enlisted in Air defense and then went back as an officer.
The prior service was useful but not all prior service officers automatically make great officers just as all West Pointers with no prior service are always the most difficult.
I have also seen that some prior service officers have a problem transitioning to commissioned. So it all depends up the individual.

Response by PO3 Andrew Kelly made Sep 2 at 2016 6:14 PM

PO3 Andrew Kelly — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 18:14:29 -0400

The worst officer I ever served under Was an LDO Ensign who had formerly been AEC (Aviation Electrician Chief for you dry shoes). I was working in an I level Avionics shop that was split between Avionics Techs on one side and Electricians on the other. We had been without a division officer for over 6 months prior to his assignment to us. The Leading PO for the division had allowed the supervisors to order their crews to maximize efficiency. As such the techs worked 10 hour days 4 days a week leaving them a free day to schedule personal business. The majority of the techs worked Monday through Thursday, Five of us worked Tuesday through Friday and had the task of presenting the spaces for Friday inspection. Our turn around on work was fast and the division recieved commendations from the Department head for our efficiency.
The first thing our new division officer did was shift work hours back to "normal" and then declare that no liberty would be granted for any reason for the first 90 days so he could get a feel for how we worked. As time went on and efficiency and morale went down it started to become evident that any requests coming from the electrician side of the shop were more likely to be approved than from the technicians. When our micro miniature repair technician put the tech that had been his assistant forward to be trained as his replacement it was turned down and a newly arrived E2 electrician was sent in his place. This went on for about 6 months until the department Master Chief saw me when i was waiting to talk to our career councilor I was asked wy I was not yet advanced to E3. I replied that I had submitted my request for advancement over a month prior as soon as i had cleared my weight control goals. He looked puzzled as he had received the approved request for one of the electricians that was still in the program but had not seen mine in any form. When I finished with the CC and was returning to our spaces I could here both the Department head and Maintenance Officer reading our Division officer the riot act for his handling of what had been the most efficient division in the building.

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Sep 2 at 2016 6:34 PM

SPC Brad Pratt — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 18:34:20 -0400

In '93 had a know it all butter bar, straight outta ROTC. Wouldn't listen to the NCO's on a field mission. When it was over we where over 3 clicks away from the rally point... You could tell the Sgt's already had the noose tied & just letting out rope.

Response by COL Jon Thompson made Sep 2 at 2016 7:12 PM

COL Jon Thompson — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 19:12:44 -0400

In the end, it really does not make that much of a difference. One of the worst officers with whom I ever worked spent half of his time enlisted, reaching SSG. So based on arguments that enlisted service makes you a better officer, he should have been one of the best. He was the opposite of that. He kept bringing up his past as if that was to give him credibility. All it did was make him look even more incompetent. I think the pitfall is that if you believe that being a former NCO makes you better just because of that experience, you are failing as a leader.

Response by PO1 Steve Whitten made Sep 2 at 2016 8:36 PM

PO1 Steve Whitten — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 20:36:31 -0400

Personal perspective; 20+ years enlisted and served under both direct commissioned and prior enlisted officers-prior enlisted were either superb officers or they sucked badly. Direct commissioned should be required to serve minimum 2 years as e-1 to 3 prior to being commissioned. I once spent over 2 weeks forcing junior enlisted to polish the inside parts of deck drains, due to a LT (jg) thinking that General of the Armies Zunni was going to hold a dress level inspection of the JF Kennedy's mess decks. It was forced extra duty on people who did nothing to deserve punishment. Gen Zunni spent less than 20 minutes aboard JFK, 15 minutes was his speech. The (jg) followed up by assigning everyone on the mess decks 4 hrs extra duty every day for a week, due to "lack of motivation". A ringknocker, if anyone was not sure.

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Sep 3 at 2016 2:03 AM

MSgt John Taylor — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 02:03:52 -0400

Some of the worst officers that I've served under were prior enlisted, and some of the best were not. If you can find a way to identify those that need some enlisted time, then that's great. Otherwise, it's luck of the draw. They are going to let in all types of officers and enlisted. Some will prosper and add to the service and some wont.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2016 2:17 AM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 02:17:28 -0400

I spent 12 years on the deckplates (E6) before earning my commission. Like many others on this thread I will say that I think it is all about the individual. The transition from enlisted to officer isn't intuitive. Some folks make it and some don't. It is a different skillset. Those who do usually make great officers. I don't know that this is because they were prior enlisted or because they have some natural leadership skills but I know that being prior enlisted gives me a unique perspective when working with my Sailors. I have known some really great officers who were not prior enlisted also and I have known terrible officers of both types as well. The most challenging part for me during the first year was stepping back and letting my people do their job. I kept getting in their way because I was used to being the guy that did everything. Then I remembered that as an enlisted Sailor I didn't like being micro-managed so I started telling my Sailors what the goal was and letting them figure out how to get there. When you empower your people they often come up with better solutions than you would have.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2016 9:40 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 09:40:25 -0400

I served my first eleven years enlisted in the Air Force and then served as a Security Police officer for 13 years. As a 31 year 2Lt I got instant respect in the SP career field. Most of the junior officers I served with who had prior service were very mature; but, not all.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 3 at 2016 11:42 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 Sep 2016 11:42:44 -0400

I was a E-5 when I ETS'ed. While I agree that it is beneficial to have the experience as an enlisted member, it could also be a detriment. Being an NCO, my first months as an officer were difficult. I was micromanaging my platoon and not letting the NCO core lead. I was pulled aside by my LTC a former NCO himself and he reminded me that the officer plans and the NCO executes. I haven't had an issue since