Where would one look to dispute an event-oriented counseling for an event prior to an initial counseling?

2019-10-31T20:50:39-04:00

Where would one look to dispute an event oriented counseling for an event prior to an initial counseling?
I have thumbed through relevant regulations, but have not found anything definitive. It is commonly believed that you cannot be negatively counseled until your initial is complete but where is this written? Looking for a solid rule and not a technique such as in an ATP.

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Oct 31 at 2019 8:58 PM

2019-10-31T20:58:10-04:00

You won’t find it because it doesn’t exist. The way to dispute an event oriented counseling is to demonstrate the event didn’t happen.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2019 9:04 PM

2019-10-31T21:04:47-04:00

There is no Army requirement for a Soldier to receive an initial counseling before that Soldier can receive an event oriented counseling, so you won't find it in writing.
If the Soldier disagreed with what was discussed during the counseling session, or what was written on the DA 4856, the counseled Soldier should have indicated so in the appropriate block of Part III on the 4856.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Oct 31 at 2019 9:29 PM

2019-10-31T21:29:12-04:00

You can be counseled at anytime. Counseling prior to an initial , should be as warnings for violations. The only thing the initial does is to inform you of the expectations and grading scheme of the counselor.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Oct 31 at 2019 9:58 PM

2019-10-31T21:58:13-04:00

No such article or regulation.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Oct 31 at 2019 10:25 PM

2019-10-31T22:25:14-04:00

Keep your mouth shut, Do not sign anything, Ask for it in writing.. request Legal representation..

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2019 10:33 PM

2019-10-31T22:33:58-04:00

Doesn't exist. Counsel away (but knock out that intial asap)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2019 10:48 PM

2019-10-31T22:48:15-04:00

Counseling is not a reprimand. It's not a punitive action. It's not a negative action.
It's not an accusation, admittance of guilt, or precursor for administrative punishment. A counseling statement does not have any legal or administrative power, it is just a record of events.

A counseling statement is a written documentation by the counselor that you were informed of something. Basically, it is a memorandum for record that a conversation happened. Nothing more.

You can be counseled at any time for any thing. Literally, any two words that the counselor wants to record that they informed you of. There are certain times that counseling is required by regulation or policy. Such as when your ETS date is changed, when you're admitted to a MEB, or when you're flagged or barred. There is no regulation anywhere that says you are not allowed to document a conversation with a Soldier.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2019 12:41 AM

2019-11-01T00:41:37-04:00

How is that a joe rumor that has any credibility? Initial counselings do not contain secret words you have to hear before you can be held responsible for your actions. You're a NCO, you should know how to conduct yourself. You should also have the cojones to tell your boss, "SSG, I need some counseling."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 1 at 2019 2:56 AM

2019-11-01T02:56:13-04:00

To echo some of the other comments, no requirement to initial before other types of counseling.

However, I’d consider it a good practice to initial before other counseling. Mainly because it allows expectations to be stated and documented between leader and led.

In an instance where an infraction could have been prevented by prior understanding of expectations, it may save future heartache.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Nov 1 at 2019 6:18 AM

2019-11-01T06:18:55-04:00

Ok, first off... STOP LISTENING TO BARRACKS LAWYERS. They know nothing and tend to make a situation worse than it ever should be.

Second, you can be counseled with negative, positive, or neutral comments at any time. It is not a reprimand. It is simply acknowledging that an event happened and putting it into a temporary record form that goes away when you leave the unit. There is NO requirement that you must receive and initial counseling prior to any others.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Nov 1 at 2019 8:08 AM

2019-11-01T08:08:27-04:00

You can be court martial Ed prior to an initial counseling (for the right offense), why can they not give you a negative counseling prior to. You will find nothing supporting that theory. Thank you for your service.