When you have E-8s who are not in compliance with the regulations, is it OK to correct them on their appearance?

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 22:56:50 -0400

There is a select group of MSGs that are jacked up and they are quick to correct me if something is jacked up meanwhile they are is it OK to correct them Respectfully? I feel like it's setting a bad example for lower enlisted if senior NCOS are jacked up. I don't know though if it's my place being a PVT.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made May 23 at 2016 11:11 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Mon, 23 May 2016 23:11:16 -0400

Yes, you can, but be Careful and Diplomatic. MAKE SURE YOU ARE 100% RIGHT FIRST......Most Master Sergeants and First Sergeants dont respond well to smartasses...

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 11:20 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 23:20:33 -0400

Being tactful I see no issue. I've corrected many soldiers in all ranks who still can't put their name tapes on right

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2016 11:23 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 23 May 2016 23:23:47 -0400

Like Roger said, be 100% right, and have the regulation on hand, on paper. The regs are not wrong and having it on paper shows you've done your homework. Additionally, ask if you could speak to the MSG privately. "Praise in public, punish in private" is something that's taught to NCO's, but it provides guidance for situations like these. While you can't punish in any way, asking the question in private is the way to go.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made May 23 at 2016 11:38 PM

MSG Pat Colby — Mon, 23 May 2016 23:38:36 -0400

If you intend to correct their spelling or grammar, I'd suggest you NOT do it in writing. At least not at this point in your life.

Ask to speak to them one on one off to the side and be brief and tactful about your observations. If you try and do it when they are in the middle of something important (you may not recognize that their current actions are important), be prepared for a major ass chewing.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 12:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 00:22:00 -0400

I don't see anything wrong with doing a quick on the spot correction for things like boot laces, pants unbloused, or a jacked up name tape. I have found those types of corrections are welcomed as long as it is done tactfully. Don't walk up to them and rip their name tape off and tell them they are jacked up. You will probably end up in the hospital. Proceed with caution.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 12:31 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 00:31:09 -0400

My intent with this post was to get good solid advice not because I wanna be command major private , I just feel like if your a senior leader why should you stop following the regs ? I mean it probably shouldn't come from a private but I needed advice and I got it. Iam aware I have spelling issues but that's a whole different topic . If this was a essay I'd be alot more cautious. Iam a private looking on how to grow to be a good leader not be taught that when you are higher ranking that you can do whatever.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 9:12 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 09:12:54 -0400

Being a ARNG Soldier pick and choose your battles carefully be tactful and respectful with your approach but don't get butt hurt if you see no change but do make sure you keep your self on point and be the example because other Soldiers will come after you and will look up to you to be their learning example . Find that squared away NCO among your ranks and feed off of that.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made May 24 at 2016 10:06 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:06:35 -0400

Yes it is your responsibility to correct your superiors. Do it tactfully, but they are a reflection of your unit. If they are jacked up, then your unit is jacked up. I wouldn't do it publicly or in front of others. For example, I noticed one of my SNCOs had a long thread hanging from a spot on his uniform. So I asked to speak with him personally, I showed him there was something jacked up on his uniform, and he thanked me for looking out for him.

Just as they are looking out for you, it is your duty to look out for them. We each must hold ourselves to higher standards. But like I said, when superiors are involved, do it tactfully.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 10:14 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:14:27 -0400

If they are a walking talking piece of chewed bubblegum, then for starters ENSURE that you yourself are squared away beyond contention, then approach these MSGs and respectfully and tactfully let them know what deficiency they are showing. I also recommend that you DO NOT do this in front of others. Ask to speak to them off to the side. As my units Detachment Sergeant, if I am a walking stick of wrong, then I would want my Soldiers to let me know.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 10:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:20:09 -0400

Making corrections if everyone's responsibility, regardless of what rank you are. As everyone else has said... It's all based off how you approach the situation. Be prepared to back up what you are correcting and do it away from everyone else and during down time. If that doesn't work... Work up your chain of command

Response by SFC David Szucs made May 24 at 2016 10:27 AM

SFC David Szucs — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:27:22 -0400

nope

Response by 1SG John Bullen made May 24 at 2016 10:56 AM

1SG John Bullen — Tue, 24 May 2016 10:56:13 -0400

After thinking about your question a bit, I feel like expending on my answer. But first, what do you mean by "jacked up?" I'm also curious why an E-8 feels compelled to always be correcting an E-2 instead of talking to that Pvt's next in line. I would tactfully (yes, it goes both ways) do an on-the-spot correction as a professional courtesy, but if the soldier showed a consistent problem with being squared away, my "correction" would include a session with his immediate supervisor in my office. If my uniform back pocket was unbuttoned without my being aware of it or my fly was open, then I would welcome someone letting me know. If you're talking about them being overweight, then leave that to their CoC. I'd prefer one of my soldiers watch my back and let me know something than have my CO or CSM call me out on it. The PV2 doesn't rate or review my NCOER, those people do...

Response by SPC John Lebiecki made May 24 at 2016 11:14 AM

SPC John Lebiecki — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:14:50 -0400

Lots of great answers here. Make sure you are using professionalism and tact. Also make sure you aren't doing it in front of their peers, subordinates or superiors.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:16 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:16:35 -0400

Yes it is ok, but make sure you are a 100% correct and be diplomatic. However, be ready that even if you are correct and diplomatic, you could still get some blowback. pick your battles wisely.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:29 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:29:16 -0400

Step 1,. Figure out his personality
Step 2,. If jackass go to your NCO and let him approach NCO to NCO
Step 3,. Watch out for anyone who commands by the rock paper rank mentality. You will lose.
Step 4,. If he is always correcting others and not squared away probably refer to step 3.

Lastly, sometimes the best NCOs become the best NCOs because you learn early what not to do. Remember, it's your career, don't waste a few years over a seniors who. Work your ass off, get promoted and move on.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:39 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:39:38 -0400

What is this nonsense if a private thinks it's ok to correct a SNCO. As long as you do it with Tact and not go up there and say hey 1sg you are all fucked up, you should be fine. We as an Army should be squaring each other away, no matter the rank. You wouldn't want you Battalion Commander walking around with their boot laces out, would you. As long as you show respect and don't call them out in public, they should have no problem and might actually thank you. i saw this one guy get promoted to sergeant and have the wrong US flag on and no one said anything.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:44 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:44:26 -0400

Some of the things I see in the ARNG gives me grey hair...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:44 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:44:54 -0400

You BEST be %100 sure before you do it !!!!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 11:47 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:47:21 -0400

#1-Know your shit
#2-Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house (if you're chunky, don't rag on overweight people, etc)
#3-Be able to take an ass chewing EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT! Some people have egos that cannot handle constructive criticism. If you get an ass chewing, let it roll off your back. I've taken a thousand of them and have endured a phenomenal career, driven largely by my own ambitions. It's completely worth it for the funny stories you will tell in the future about some shitty leader you were smarter than. Use it as a learning experience as well. Every time you recognize a flaw, you are learning what NOT to do.

Response by SGT Stacey Nelson made May 24 at 2016 11:49 AM

SGT Stacey Nelson — Tue, 24 May 2016 11:49:07 -0400

Yes. Use tact. Show in black and white where they are wrong. Do it away from his or her peers, as correction should be done privately. However, I do suggest having your first line leader be aware.

Response by SPC Jeffrey Reese made May 24 at 2016 12:01 PM

SPC Jeffrey Reese — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:01:22 -0400

I have always found if I have seen something that needed correcting with a senior enlisted phrase it in the form of a question. They are generally more likely to respond and correct the issue. They will also be less likely to be chewing your butt for doing so as well. Because it puts in the form of you seeking knowledge.

Response by SGT Chris Hill made May 24 at 2016 12:04 PM

SGT Chris Hill — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:04:06 -0400

Hell yes, correct them. Here's some real honesty, tact doesn't always work. In fact, 90% of the time, any NCO rank will embarrass you regardless of how you approach them. Be a big boy, tell them whatever they're doing is against regs. Truth is, they're going to rip you a new one and probably embarrass you, so at least be sure you're completely following regs before you try to correct. As an old SGM told me during an ass chewing, "you should correct me when I'm not right, but be a man and prepare to get ripped up. At the end of the day, I will respect your courage".

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made May 24 at 2016 12:06 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:06:37 -0400

Yeah, that is a good idea. Feel free to do so.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 12:12 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:12:17 -0400

Short answer: Yes.
TC 7-21.13 states the following regarding on the spot corrections:
"On-the-spot corrections are not only issued from the leader to the subordinate, but also include
tactful corrections from subordinates to leaders and corrections between peers. It is your responsibility to understand and adhere to the standard."
Understanding and executing are two different things however. Tactful is the key word in this situation. Unless the person you are attempting to correct is flagrantly violating the standard, the direct approach works better if you start with the assumption that the person you are correcting knows better and has overlooked something (like boot laces hanging out, headgear crooked, etc.) In that situation, most leaders will be grateful for the correction. Sometimes you can take the situation to another Senior NCO (your PSG for example) and allow them to make the correction. Senior leaders will take corrections much better from their peers than from privates. Another technique is to frame the correction in the form of a question. Example: PV2 Miller comes to MSG Jones and asks what regulation governs (insert deficiency here) because PV2 Miller isn't certain what right looks like based on leaders demonstrating different standards. Just make sure that you choose your battles wisely. If the MSGs that you refer to aren't being corrected by their supervisors or peers, whatever on-the-spot corrections that you make most likely won't stick. If that's the case, don't pursue it further (unless you really like pushups).
Edit: Additionally, make absolutely certain that you are in the right. Some regulations are not as black and white as they may seem at first glance. Others fall within the commander's discretion of a particular unit/installation. Make sure that you aren't attempting to enforce your opinion or personal interpretation of the regulation.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 12:12 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:12:44 -0400

jacked up in what way?

Response by PVT Paul Sevy made May 24 at 2016 12:38 PM

PVT Paul Sevy — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:38:14 -0400

My opinion is to do it privately, being nonchalant about it, rather then corrective. The NCO knows the regs, corrective is not necessary and could become personally expensive. Treat him or her as any other solider as it is a matter of observation " boot lace is untied " " ranks upside down " etc. there is no judgement or corrective action, merely presenting a fact in a friendly manner. Never gave me an issue even with Full Birds. They are people too ;) You might be surprised you may get thanked.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made May 24 at 2016 12:43 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Tue, 24 May 2016 12:43:47 -0400

It's important to do right-just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons, not as some revenge trip. But regardless of the purity of your reasons for doing so, make double-damn sure you're correct to begin with, then be tactful and business-like.

If they are in the wrong, hopefully--if they are leaders of solid character--they will appreciate what you did.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made May 24 at 2016 1:25 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 24 May 2016 13:25:37 -0400

My best advice: As a junior enlisted, I think you should focus on the unit mission. Build your technical skills to the highest level of excellence you can achieve. Be the soldier who is always in great physical condition, knows his job, and works hard to do things right every day. Ask questions when you don't understand something and learn leadership from your NCOs. Make this your full time Guard job and it won't matter if there are a few less-than-professional SNCOs in your unit.

My experience with the Guard tells me personal relationships are more intense in the Guard because people don't PCS in and out all the time. Friendships run deep and interpersonal relationships may ignore rank or position. The SNCOs in you organization have probably been there since the turn of the Century, or longer. They have the internal formal and informal leadership network in their hands. They can make your life miserable in so many ways you don't event know about yet. You may be better off to ignore the jacked-up-ness of the SNCOs. However (there's always a "however") if the jacked-up condition threatens the health, safety, or mission accomplishment of any person or organization, then you need to bring it to the attention of the first NCO in your chain of command.

Response by CPL John Anaya made May 24 at 2016 2:40 PM

CPL John Anaya — Tue, 24 May 2016 14:40:54 -0400

I would stear away from correcting an senior NCO if I were you, Let the SGM and Officers deal with that. Focus on your career goals, E8s deal with senior officers and CSMs all day, so If they haven't said anything to correct them, I wouldn't neither. Just my personal advice.

Response by PVT John Williams made May 24 at 2016 3:39 PM

PVT John Williams — Tue, 24 May 2016 15:39:28 -0400

Let's see if I have this right. A pv2 with maybe three years under his belt is going to correct an E-8 ? Don't know about y'all , but back in my day if you did that you would have lowered the earth a few inches from all the push-ups.

Response by SGT Chad Martel made May 24 at 2016 3:59 PM

SGT Chad Martel — Tue, 24 May 2016 15:59:47 -0400

If you see an NCO not in correct uniform or wearing a jacked up uniform, yes you can correct them, but remember your military bearing. Don't be a smart ass about it, but be careful and above all make sure you are right before you make the correction.

Response by SSgt Kevin Moynahan made May 24 at 2016 6:29 PM

SSgt Kevin Moynahan — Tue, 24 May 2016 18:29:29 -0400

As long as you preface with, "with all due respect" you can say whatever you want! But for real, I never had a problem nonchalantly making a comment, "Chief, your laces are untucked." Of course make sure you're squared away before you comment on someone else... especially to someone that outranks you by quite a bit

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 6:50 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 18:50:13 -0400

AR-670-1 is a DA mandate. Therfore it is entirely appropriate to correct anyone whether Enlisted, Warrant, or officer. Just remember to always display tact and respect for rank.

Response by Sgt Bruce Taylor made May 24 at 2016 7:02 PM

Sgt Bruce Taylor — Tue, 24 May 2016 19:02:01 -0400

Lol. You may be a Pvt, but try to think like a General and pick your battles. A sharp Pvt notices things that need corrected. A brave Pvt addresses issues without regard to circumstance. A wise Pvt keeps his noob pie hole shut, makes positive things happen when possible, and doesn't get offended by every little thing he sees.
If you feel you must address the issue, I recommend you use a tone that shows how dissappointed you are with an SNCO who lets a Pvt down. "Why the fuq are your boots so jacked up!!?" is a good start. Do it publicly in front of as many other junior enlisted as possible. That way he will recognize you as a leader among Privates. He will be impressed by your combat ready attitude, and he will react loudly at first to test your courage and resolve. When this happens, show that you command respect by demanding that he apologize and salute you. Most importantly, have someone get video of the confrontation so other privates can learn how it's done. Good luck!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2016 7:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 May 2016 19:16:16 -0400

Corrections can be mad to whomever from whomever. But if you're going to make a correction:
1) you need to do your research and make sure you're right by regulation, SOP, policy letter, etc.
2) you need to be respectful and tactful when addressing them and their deficiency. Remember these are noncommissioned officers and despite whatever may be wrong with their appearance their rank deserves respect.
3) if they're great leaders and you're respectful and right by black and white print, they'll correct themselves.

Not everyone is an asshole leader, and for a ptv it takes some serious integrity to correct a MSG.

Response by SPC James Anderson made May 24 at 2016 7:47 PM

SPC James Anderson — Tue, 24 May 2016 19:47:49 -0400

Totally depends on the person. This is basically Russian Roulette. Even if your lower enlisted of the year most people that outrank you by that much will have a chip on their shoulder. I spent 7 years in the Army/National Guard and I've only seen shit roll down hill. Reading your post I came to 3 possibilities. #1 They have something against you personally. #2 They have your basic power hungry NCO complex. #3 Your jacked up. Not saying there are not more options but these were the first in my mind. But if any of these three are the reason then correcting them will not be pleasant no matter how you go about it.

Response by LCpl Nicholas Hines made May 24 at 2016 8:39 PM

LCpl Nicholas Hines — Tue, 24 May 2016 20:39:56 -0400

I have learned the hard about command retaliation, just leave them alone and let them collect the retirement they are chasing because your career isnt shit to them, they just want your to re-up because higher reenlistment numbers look good on them. If high up is fucked up its because they have stopped giving a fuck.

Response by CW4 Leonard White made May 24 at 2016 11:29 PM

CW4 Leonard White — Tue, 24 May 2016 23:29:41 -0400

Yes, you can make simple, "on the spot" corrections. The NCO maybe not be aware of the violation and might appreciate your pointing it out. But...it is not your role to correct "jack up" NCOs. PVTs are still learning how to be a professional soldier and the best thing you can do us ensure that your appearance is correct.
When you do point out a correction DO NOT do it in a "smart ass" or disrespectful way. I've never seen anyone get an Article 15 for being disrespectful to PVT but I have seen it when a PVT thought he had the authority to correct an NCO. If the NCO "blows you off," it's not your role to insist that they follow your instructions, you don't have that kind of authority.
A "jack up" NCO is the command's problem to fix, not the PVTs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 3:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 May 2016 03:24:00 -0400

STOP BEING A MILLENNIAL

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 6:19 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 May 2016 06:19:15 -0400

It's not your place. You'll be on fire watch all weekend. If you have enough time to evaluate what someone that far above your pay grade is doing, then you don't have enough to do.

There is plenty of dirt to weed eat, and morning dew on the grass to mop over the weekend.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 5:21 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 May 2016 17:21:27 -0400

Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with it, but caution and tact is important when correcting someone. Privates rarely have the knowledge base to make any corrections like that, but it shouldn't be left to a PVT to make the correction. Hopefully that individuals peers correct his/hers discrepancy first. If done correctly that PVT shows personnel courage by helping a fellow soldier out especially if that soldier is a high rank.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2016 11:28 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 May 2016 23:28:17 -0400

Please do, however, I highly recommend, just please ask him or her to speak freely and most important, make sure it's in privet, with no other ears around. You won't gain anything for your self or our Army, out of embarrassing anyone in public.

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Sep 18 at 2016 11:24 AM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sun, 18 Sep 2016 11:24:18 -0400

When I was a young specialist, I would make corrections on anyone. I had Senior NCOs that would actually thank me. But the key is to do it tactfully and outside of everyone else's earshot

Response by MSgt Sandra McKinney Dent made Sep 18 at 2016 2:01 PM

MSgt Sandra McKinney Dent — Sun, 18 Sep 2016 14:01:56 -0400

First off, BEFORE saying anything, are you 110% sure, look it up and note the reference (reg, section, paragraph and page). Second, you must be totally and absolutely "squared away" as well. Nothing on you is out of regulations, misplaced or in error.

Then and only then take the most senior of the group aside FROM EVERYONE and say
"I'm not sure, but something looks off and I didn't know if you knew it. Isn't (what is wrong) supposed to be (what is correct). If I'm wrong correct me. I don't know if you're testing me or not."

You give the option, then listen to the answer. Most will thank-you for being aware, a few might be "ticked" that someone so junior noticed.

Way back, there were many times that I, a mid-grade NCO had to correct a female junior officer on her dress and appearance (AFR 35-10) at the request of an other Officer (male). You need to "be the example" when doing something like this.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Sep 18 at 2016 5:53 PM

SSG John Jensen — Sun, 18 Sep 2016 17:53:14 -0400

I come back from whichever school and tell Top that this certain thing is part of his job now, and he says "OK, I'll check it out"
I come back from whichever school and tell Top that this is no longer your privilidge; now I'm in deep shit!

Response by PO2 Ron Gunsolus made Nov 15 at 2017 7:11 PM

PO2 Ron Gunsolus — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 19:11:46 -0500

My advice is to do it anonymously through a discrete note

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2017 8:02 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 20:02:15 -0500

We take care of each other that's the bottom line and also remember we as enlisted set the example to our officers.

Response by SSG Bill Coggin made Nov 15 at 2017 9:17 PM

SSG Bill Coggin — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:17:59 -0500

I want to know why a PV2 is claiming SPC as his rank on RallyPoint?!

Response by SMSgt Mark Gildersleeve made Nov 15 at 2017 9:19 PM

SMSgt Mark Gildersleeve — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:19:57 -0500

A good leader is able to give and recieve correction, like the others have mentioned, make sure your 100% correct, do it in private, and respectfully. I always encouraged my people to correct non compliance regardless of rank.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2017 11:20 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 23:20:09 -0500

I think we can stop asking "is it ok to correct (insert rank) when they are out of regs. Do it, will you bitten in the ass? Probably, but just do it and move on.

Response by SPC David Willis made Nov 16 at 2017 1:46 PM

SPC David Willis — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 13:46:40 -0500

It all depends whats going on. If its a range safety issue worry about consequences later and make the correction immediately with as much force as necessary. Ive seen E4s put hands on SFCs and MSGs on a range before and the NCOIC and OIC chewed them out when they started going after the SPC. If its about grooming or uniform wear Id advise caution, you really are taking your life in your hands haha.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Nov 18 at 2017 6:09 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Sat, 18 Nov 2017 18:09:39 -0500

Do it respectfully, pull them to the side out of ear shot of others. If that doesn't work tell your CSM.