When is it OK to display religious verses in military settings? What about your barracks?

2014-03-22T19:54:27-04:00

Touchy subject, but a battle wanted me to post this to get feedback. (seriously his question, but it was good enough for me ask, he thinks RP is like FB) An Air Force Cadet wrote a Biblical Verse on his white board on his room door. Not in his room, but on the outside facing the hallway. After a few months he was instructed to erase it or be released from Academy.  He erased it after a short debate with his leadership. I'm assuming he reported this to the media as civilian advocates are trying to boycott the academy now. The verse was a quote that encouraged the Cadet every morning. That's the simplest version of the story.<div><br></div><div>So my question.<div><br><div>1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"</div><div>2. CPT <span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons</span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred.  (I should retake my EO course on ALMS)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 22px;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#545454" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">If a Soldier can't adhere to regulations or standards, they should not be able to enlist or be discharged. Why isn't it that black & white? I started this post thinking "Commandant's discretion" is that the best answer.</span></font></div></div>

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Mar 22 at 2014 8:18 PM

2014-03-22T20:18:16-04:00

This is a very tough subject. I think it depends on whether you treat the outside of the Cadet's door as their private space or as Air Force property.<div><br></div><div>Personally, it does seem a bit overly sensitive to forbid it. It's basically the Cadet's personal door, and I don't see any harm in it, though it begs the question of where you draw the line after that.  I also think writing something like that on the outside of a commander's door, or on the outside of a unit door, is a whole different question. </div><div><br></div><div>That said, Service Academies are well known for having severely limited rights imposed on their Cadets... for example not being allowed to wear civilian clothes even on weekends. So take whatever restrictions you have on active duty, and turn it up a few notches at the Academies. </div><div><br></div><div>As far as the larger question of the fact we have "So help me God" in Oaths, and "In God we Trust" on our money, and Chaplains in our units, yet separation of Church and State, is a reflection that this subject is ever evolving in our nation's history.</div>

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 9:01 PM

2014-03-22T21:01:44-04:00

Since UFOs have been generally debunked, it is Christianity's turn.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Mar 22 at 2014 11:16 PM

2014-03-22T23:16:52-04:00

SSG Dear, It is called anti Christian. What do you think if a Muslim wrote a verse from the Koran? I am willing to bet, nothing. I do know why we can't accept everyone's was and beliefs. I seriously do not get offended if I see Jewish, Muslim, or Mormon symbols in public. We are should respect every one's belief and realize they we are nt the only ones who believe in something.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 22 at 2014 11:26 PM

2014-03-22T23:26:24-04:00

Your religion should be very much like your genitals. Don't wave it around in public, keep it away from those below the age of consent, and not to be discussed or displayed.

Response by SPC Michael Hunt made Mar 23 at 2014 12:25 AM

2014-03-23T00:25:03-04:00

This is all above my pay grade. Let me just say that I would not have made it through my tour without Ephisians 6.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Mar 23 at 2014 12:27 AM

2014-03-23T00:27:55-04:00

Freedom of religious expression applies to every religion EXCEPT Christianity

Response by SFC Lamont Womack made Mar 23 at 2014 12:35 AM

2014-03-23T00:35:38-04:00

The Air Force Academy was justified by making the cadet take the verse down. The verse was displayed in a place where other people could see it. We all have the right to freedom of religion but we don't have the right to "force" our religion on other people. "God" is a title. God can be whatever "God" a person believes in (ex: Allah means God in Arabic). The CPT example has no relevance in this issue unless he was trying to make someone else wear a turban and beard. Look bottom line is freedom is freedom; not just when it is something we believe in or identify with. 

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 1:29 AM

2014-03-23T01:29:58-04:00

As long as they let Muslim students write out Koran verses, I don't see a problem with it

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 23 at 2014 7:43 AM

2014-03-23T07:43:31-04:00

There are two topics of discussion I try to avoid like the plague. One of them is religion and the other is politics. I don't need people to force their views on me just as I don't like to preach my views to others. Do I think it's wrong for people to show their support and beliefs for certain things? No. However, there is a time and place to discuss such topics.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2014 12:49 PM

2014-03-23T12:49:42-04:00

All the comments are excellent and I really like the approbations.

That being said. I wanted the particular Regulation or discretionary power that would have deemed this inappropriate and on what EXACT basis? The hostile work environment the verse created, the unit cohesive perspective or morale?

AR 600-20 Army Command Policy uses DOD Directive 1300.17

"The Army will approve requests for accommodation of religious practices unless accommodation will have an adverse impact on unit readiness, individual readiness, unit cohesion, morale, discipline, safety, and/or health."

When I think of the CPT's beard, I think of Sand Storms. Sand storms carry viruses and bacteria brought up deep in the sand. Very well known plagues are from the result of large scale Sand Storms. His beard thus will become full of bacteria. Which of course against FM 21-10 Field Sanitation and Personal Hygiene, yet religion trumps the welfare of subordinates.....guess his MEDPROS better reflect his inability to deploy to areas such as these....

. AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2706

1.1 EO Program

1.1.1 The use of disparaging terms with respect to a person’s race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, or genetic information contributes to a hostile work environment and must not be tolerated. Commanders and supervisors should ensure all types of harassment are corrected as soon as possible once they are made aware.

Someone was harassed from the verse would be the bottom line in this case I suppose.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Mar 23 at 2014 5:19 PM

2014-03-23T17:19:07-04:00

Makes about as much sense as trying to boycott a TV program because it's offensive. Don't like it, change the channel. Or maybe you could sue the maker of the TV you are watching because you're too stubborn to change the channel. If you don't like what somebody wrote on their whiteboard outside "their" room, don't read it. He wrote the verse to encourage himself, and if anybody else felt encouraged, then that's a bonus. But if someone feels discouraged, they are free "NOT" to read it. It's not as though he instructed others to read it, but it was there if anybody wanted to. I bet if he posted "I support GLBT in the military" or "I support anti-gun laws" or even "I support anything liberal-minded", he would have been applauded for speaking his mind, but because he posts something conservative he is admonished. Since when did the military become so liberal?

Response by LT George Ganahl made Mar 24 at 2014 9:44 AM

2014-03-24T09:44:34-04:00

<p>My, how things change. I still have the New Testament and Psalms bible imprinted with the U.S. Naval Academy crest that I was issued on Induction Day at USNA. I was not a professing Christian at the time, so technically it was forcing a religion down my throat...though I did not see it as such.</p><p><br></p><p>I became a Christian while in the Navy, and I laid my life on the line day after day to preserve the rights of others to be able to exercise their rights. Those rights include the right to speak out against my Christianity (but not the right to persecute me for my Christianity).</p><p><br></p><p>The whole "tolerance" movement and PC movement is not so much about allowing everyone to hold their own beliefs and be able to talk about them, but more about shouting down the beliefs of others as "intolerant" and "hate speech" when those beliefs make "someone" uncomfortable (usually the one shouting the loudest).</p><p><br></p><p>Let me tell you, I had to deal with a lot more than just "uncomfortable" situations both during my plebe year at USNA (with all kinds of truly nasty things being screamed in my face on a daily basis in the name of training) and during my time in the fleet. I survived all of it just fine, and matured in my viewpoint, and actually learned how to interact on a rational level with all kinds of people and all kinds of situations.</p><p><br></p><p>In short, writing a bible verse on the whiteboard outside a cadet room is fine. It should spark discussion, debate, and intelligent conversation. Carrying scripture verses tucked inside his cover out of sight should be fine, providing comfort. Wearing a button or sticker on his uniform saying something like, "Turn or Burn!" would be completely inappropriate.</p><p><br></p><p>My .02.</p>

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Mar 26 at 2014 4:51 PM

2014-03-26T16:51:30-04:00

It is my belief, this is all it is, that if we are to make rules for one religion, then it should be enforced for all religions.  IE  if this individual is not allowed to express his views, then Soldiers will not be allowed, beards, of specific religious headgear.  If you are going to make rules for the allowance of said religious beliefs, then one should be able to express their beliefs no matter what their belief is.  Once again, this is my opinion, it is not regulation or doctrine.  Just the personal thoughts of this individual.

Response by SFC Stephen P. made Mar 26 at 2014 5:06 PM

2014-03-26T17:06:49-04:00

Your cadet appropriated government equipment in order to further a personal religious goal. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion is not the same as an entitlement to platform.

We can't use our access to the post to preach in the barracks, we can't broadcast our political views on the battalion net, we can't use the company copier to make religious pamphlets, and we can't write bible quotes on wherever we want on government whiteboards.

'1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"'
This portion is optional.

'2. CPT Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons' The beard and turban were not issued.

'3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.'
Contentious objection has been widely recognized throughout the entire history of this nation. It is clearly covered in our regulations.

'4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred.'
Who said it was?

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Mar 26 at 2014 10:30 PM

2014-03-26T22:30:15-04:00

What is the question? If the question is if it was right for the Cadet to be required to take it down I say absolutely. The white board may belong to the Cadet but the room and door belong to the academy and therefore is not for the display of personal beliefs, quotes etc; Instead it is to be used for messages directly related to the Cadets school related activities, accountability and/or professional messages.

The caveat to that is whether or not other students were afforded the same opportunity to post thier own personal messages unrelated to their education. If the answer is Yes, then the commandant must require ALL students to remove personal messages and/or statements. If the answer is no, See above.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Mar 27 at 2014 3:12 PM

2014-03-27T15:12:55-04:00

World is a Changing and good time and good place for this discussion. I am a Retired Sailor, Lived among and with folks of many different Faiths. Also we Sailor's are not known for a lot of tolerance and patience with those that proselytize. I am a Liberal Catholic by Faith. I congratulate the Army on its decision to allow Sikhs to keep their beloved Characteristic Turban and Beard. While stationed in London I got to know a few in that community and they are oustanding examples of Family Values (Surprising for a Warrior Cast). You are right Religion shouldn't be Indecent, Racist, Sexist or Hatred but it easily becomes so when people mix it with Politics to surpress those of different Faiths, Races and Sexes which is often the case. As a German American Catholic I am reminded of two quotes "We are a Christian Nation" "Ours is a Christian Movement" Adolf Hitler. Religion when mixed with Far Right Wing Politics is Fascism and Toxic to our Culture. I hope that helps SSG.

Response by CW2 Jonathan Kantor made Apr 11 at 2014 8:12 AM

2014-04-11T08:12:17-04:00

A lot of that has to do with the way the Academy has been run of late. They have been violating the Establishment Clause for a few decades and it has become very saturated with Evangelicals. The complaints come from within for the most part and they get in touch with civilian advocacy groups like the MAAF and the FFRF, both of which, I am a member. The main problem here is prostelization. Is it prostelizing to put a prayer on your door? No, of course not! Does it make people uncomfortable because it probably isn't the only instance and they feel somewhat embattled on all sides from this sort of display? Yes. The only reason it has come to this; making people erase a board outside their door, is because little issues became larger issues, and lots of threats of litigation when cadets were forced to sit through prayers and other religious-run meetings and organizations. When it get to that level, it became untenable for many like me. There have been thousands of complaints over the years so there is a lot of scrutiny on the cadets and cadre.

1. People like me have been fighting to remove the terms 'under god' and others for decades. McCarthyism took us from a secular nation into one that isn't exactly one anymore. This nation is secular, but adding 'under god' statements to our currency and our pledge of allegiance because we feared the communists isn't secular at all.

2. I don't have a problem with someone keeping their beard if they are authorized a waiver. We have shaving profiles for people with ingrown hairs and the like. We don't force Soldiers to fight if they claim to be conscientious objector.

3. See above.

4. I would prefer to discuss that vie message if you like. If we go into that sort of discussion, I am likely to offend a lot of people. I am a historian and a theologian so I have the background and can discuss if you like.

MAAF - Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers

FRFF - The Freedom From Religion Foundation

http://zipline.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/religion-and-the-military-back-off-with-the-prostelization-no-zealots-need-apply/

Religion and the Military (Back Off with the Prostelization....No Zealots Need Apply!)

I was just asked if the Air Force Academy was a religious school. What? I said. Well, no...a military school but not religious. Huh? A 2005 article already raised the issue of what was judged to be...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 6:59 PM

2014-04-16T18:59:59-04:00

The So help me god portion is optional. It always has been. When I reenlist Soldiers, I always ask them if they prefer swear or affirm. Ive had one Soldier choose affirm, and I had him cross out that line and initial on the DD 4. Perfectly legal.

Those of us in leadership positions walk a fine line when it comes to religion in our professional lives. We are free to talk about what we believe or don't believe, but the second it crosses the line into something like a command sponsored opinion, it is no longer appropriate.

Personally, I think religion in the military should be treated as it is in public schools with the captive audience principle: People are free to participate on their own tie, in their own way. But it can't be command led or directed, or disrupt anyone else.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 17 at 2014 10:04 PM

2014-04-17T22:04:19-04:00

My take....<div><br></div><div>Atheist dont believe in God so if you go to an atheists room and his white board is blank would you file a complaint that he doesn't have a bible verse on his white board?</div><div><br></div><div>NO!</div><div><br></div><div>Because no one should give a crap what someone else displays as long as its not derogatory.</div>

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 12:23 AM

2014-04-21T00:23:18-04:00

You can use religious verses to teach lessons. We quote people all day, you can quote the bible if it serves that same purpose.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made May 11 at 2014 6:22 PM

2014-05-11T18:22:44-04:00

If someone is offended by me displaying a religious verse, my first inclination would be to pick up my Bible and thump them in the head with it, then I'd want to preach fire and brimstone to them!

HOWEVER, since Jesus says "noooooo" I'd humbly take the verse down :(
I say this because my will always takes second place to His will.
1 COR 8 v. 9; 2 COR 6, 3

Response by SPC Jessica Stewart made May 11 at 2014 6:43 PM

2014-05-11T18:43:21-04:00

I'm not "religious" but what is the difference, besides where they quote comes from, from a scripture in the Bible being publicly displayed versus a motivational quote from a professional speaker that someone looks up too? The only difference is where it came from. The person/people who made a big deal out of this need to look elsewhere to get their 5 minutes of national fame.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made May 13 at 2014 12:02 AM

2014-05-13T00:02:15-04:00

While I was work one day, they shipped in a new guy to my room. He called and asked if it was OK to put up a few religious things on the walls. When I got back to the room, all 4 walls were COVERED in religious quotes. I'm Buddhist and the ass even had the audacity to light the unlit ceremonial candle on my alter. Couple that with the fact he was in AA and his partner would show up at all hours day and night plus he was quite obviously gay and fond of LOUD rap music (1000 watt stereo in the tiny room) means he wasn't there for very long.

Sorry, a little off topic. We took an oath to defend the constitution which provides "Freedom of and from religion" but tastefulness and moderation.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made May 13 at 2014 9:14 AM

2014-05-13T09:14:59-04:00

I learn that how much our intentions to encourage someone with scriptures displayed on a board or maybe a banner someone will be offended. If you and a individual or maybe a group want to share words of encouragements during regular duty time, go into a private area at lunchtime to pray or hold bible study. After all, your lunchtime is your free time, it shouldn't be any confusion.

Response by MSgt Keith Hebert made May 13 at 2014 9:34 AM

2014-05-13T09:34:37-04:00

Ok I here I go again.
Just because someone is walking down a hall and sees a scripture posted on someone's personal whiteboard;
1 hello grow up and don't read it you whining ass little punk
2 what's the difference between a Christian posting something from the Bible or a Muslim posting something from the Koran. Oh yea maybe because your dumbass doesn't recognize anything from the Koran.
3 as far as the Air Force quite being so PC
4 people life is hard enough without having to worry about stupid shit.

Response by PFC Earl Herman made May 13 at 2014 9:36 AM

2014-05-13T09:36:53-04:00

It is my understanding of history that this nation was founded due in part to religious persecution. With that being said, my feeling is that our Nation is a Christian nation. We use our faith to endure. Look at our National Songs, our Pledge of Allegiance, our currency. I am sure most of us feel the same. I think that the Academy was being reactionary in this instance. God, in every sense is a major part of who we as a people of the United States of America.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2014 12:56 PM

2014-05-15T12:56:09-04:00

Personally, I believe that if someone wants to display their faith, then go right ahead. Again, evangelizing someone isn t the right way to go about it. However, if a Muslim person wants to display the Crescent Moon, then they have the right to do that, a Jewish person wants to display the Star of David, go right ahead. No one should EVER have to feel shame in a display of their faith.

If the hammer gets brought down in such a matter, its persecution.

Response by LTC Mark Beattie made May 16 at 2014 11:29 AM

2014-05-16T11:29:32-04:00

Simply because there are many religions, each with their own beliefs, it's best to leave religion out of all military settings. They belong in their individual places of worship, or in your home.

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made May 17 at 2014 12:57 AM

2014-05-17T00:57:21-04:00

I agree SSGT Brian, this is a touchy subject, but really it should not be. What is the difference between a cadet, or any member of the military, having an inspirational verse from the bible hanging around, and someone having an inspirational quote from Buddha hanging around? The answer nothing. If it inspires and strengthens the person then it is beneficial to the unit as a whole.
I am sure there are as many if not more members in the military encouraging others to party with them. Isn't that proselytizing? So if a person can try to persuade others to follow Satan ie, party, then is it not fair that someone should be able to quietly say I refuse Satan?

Response by SGT Jim Hamann made May 17 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-05-17T11:41:03-04:00

Let me introduce where I stand: I'm atheist, I personally don't believe/understand a lot of the differences with different religions but the single factor in them all is you have faith in a higher power. Simply because I don't share that faith gives me no right to stop you from keeping yours. I personally agree with many of the values that religion teaches and some of the verses make sense to the point they are beautiful. If it makes someone happy or inspires them to be a better person, then why judge them. Nothing about religion is indecent and nothing about religion is offensive as long as one religion puts down another's faith

When we are somewhere and a prayer is offered, I respectfully bow my head and remain silent. It's called respect for someone else's views and as long as it doesn't hinder the mission then it should be allowed. I said the full Oath and meant it. I say the full Pledge of Allegiance and I take it very seriously

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2014 5:50 AM

2014-05-18T05:50:40-04:00

1st we are allowed but never encouraged to take the "so help me god" sentence out of enlistment oath. We are allowed but not encouraged to practice or not practice our lack of belief as we see fit. We are often singled out, often passed over for positions within the unit, and possible career implications because we are not part of the god fearing personnel. I have been ostrisized and discriminated against throughout my career simply because I don't believe what others believe. Specifically my course chief at BNCOC (ALC) told me I wouldn't graduate if I didn't now my head during the benediction at the ceremony. I have been continually subjected to Christian group prayers at every thing ranging from before jumps to change of command ceremonies.

I think everyone has a right to believe whatever they want. I wish my countrymen actually believed it as well. The person to my left or right could believe anything, I don't care. However what I believe seems to be something that people are concerned about.

I don't send people only to the chaplain or to the MFLC. I give them both options.

Why is freedom of and freedom from religion such a hard concept, religion should not play a part in our government nor our military. Hands, feet and belief system inside the cart at all times during your trip through the military.

I don't think that is too much to ask.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2014 3:19 PM

2014-05-22T15:19:16-04:00

I apologize for any typo-s as a cast sucks for typing.

first that cadet should be released, if he cant take an order without crying to some civilians he doesn't need to be in the military. this is the military and he was in a government school and building. if it was for his personal motivation he could/should have put it inside.one thing that many ignore on eo/posh its not whether the offender meant it but how its taken by the offended. its not his personal property or in his personal area so he should expect it may not be appreciated by all.

as for the follow on questions, the oath is able to be affirmed without the god reference.

as for those that join an army then are some how surprised when they have to deploy and their" faith" doesn't allow it, they should be given 4 weeks to clear and loss of benefits. this is the army not the salvation army, we fight and fine you don't want to kill that is your choice but don't join and then cry when we send you to Iraq. just don't load your gun, see what the opfor does, send them with the option not to kill.

and religion is hatred, I have seen and heard enough directed at me to see the ugly side of it. its is just finally that those who don't want to hear it have ways or enough of a voice, to get it removed from gov building minus the chapel.

this isn't eo as much as telling people what they should know, consideration for others. I wont play my ac/dc at 70bd cause you may not like it. the same for print and speech.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 22 at 2014 10:55 PM

2014-05-22T22:55:55-04:00

After reading some of the comments on this entire subject, I harken back to some sage words of wisdom that my DS gave us back in '87...don't discuss politics or religion with other Soldiers, only will lead to arguments or a severe case of butthurtedness. Damn boy was he right!

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made May 23 at 2014 12:08 AM

2014-05-23T00:08:23-04:00

They don't seem to have a problem accepting money on post that states "In God We Trust" and they don't seem to have a problem paying us with such currency. Our nation was founded on the self-evident truth that all men are created being endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights....

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-05-23T11:41:43-04:00

Not everyone swore an oath "so help me god". Way back in 1984 I "affirmed" my oath of enlistment "so help me", no religion whatsoever. I also had Atheist on my dog tags, way back then and still today.

In his room (if a private room) I would have no problem with it. In his locker even in a shared room, no problem. On his desk or his part of the wall in a shared room gets tougher, but probably still OK, though I would qualify that with only if it didn't offend his roommate.

Out in the hallway for everyone? How in any way is that for his own motivation every morning. Facing outward is just advertising/proselytizing, and that has NO PLACE in a military setting.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 27 at 2014 1:01 PM

2014-05-27T13:01:41-04:00

I am agnostic, and throughout my time in the Army, I have been to many chapels on installations for various things such as promotions, EO briefings, etc.. I had no issue with them displaying the cross, Jesus crucified, or even praying. I was, and am, confident that being in the presence of others praying or respecting their religious beliefs in their own way, allowed me to both participate and to understand their beliefs. Like other here, I don't like being forced into someone else's religion. But if you stick your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist or if you confront it head on and denigrate it, then as a soldier, you are violating the principles for which you swore an oath to protect. Freedom of speech and freedom or religion. As far as Islamic and Sharia Law, those religions are designed to suppress the rights and freedoms of others, which is contrary to the oath we all took to the Constitution. As for Athiesm, there is nothing that says you cannot participate in other religions, nor does anything say that you should suppress others who practice their religions. As an Athiest, you have a moral responsibility to believe in yourself, and to allow others to believe in what they want.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 16 at 2014 1:52 AM

2014-12-16T01:52:42-05:00

I guess it depends on the verse. There are plenty of bible verses that would be at odds with the values we have expressed as a nation and a military.

Response by SA Harold Hansmann made Dec 19 at 2014 12:11 PM

2014-12-19T12:11:39-05:00

Is there some reason he can't stick a white board to the inside of his door and put said quote there so he sees it before he leaves his room?

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Dec 26 at 2014 11:43 AM

2014-12-26T11:43:30-05:00

Let's have a new question called who besides an atheist can really stand an atheist? Who can care about this issue with our nation facing these troubles is beyond me

No one really wants to hear their crap. The vast majority of us that are habitually indifferent see them in the same light as radical feminists.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 11 at 2015 5:03 PM

2015-01-11T17:03:45-05:00

Personally I wouldn't be offened what anybody wrote on their white board outside their room put on their car or whatever. I might see it read it once and forget about it. Does it affect how I live my life! No it doesn't so don't care. But with that being said what are your motives are you trying to create controversy. Are you trying to get under folks skin with derogatory obscene unnecessary pictures, sayings or quotes. We are a very easily offened people. So if that is your only purpose well you would be in the wrong. But if it's something minuscule in nature what's the problem. Does it affect how you live your life?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 12 at 2015 2:54 AM

2015-01-12T02:54:31-05:00

I don't think leaders discretion would not work in all cases. They may have conflicting views of the issue at hand, but if we apply an across the board standard for religion it could bee seen as oppressive. violating the values we defend. We are going to have to find some kind of middle ground on this issue before the situations we keep seeing pop up in the media get out of hand.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 13 at 2015 8:46 AM

2015-01-13T08:46:13-05:00

Freedom of religion should apply to all, dont believe?, dont participate. Some peoples faces offend me, but we dont make them hide, lol

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 19 at 2015 9:18 AM

2015-02-19T09:18:21-05:00

Speaking the words "so help me god" have little to do with religion. when spoken at the end of an oath/ vow it implies that commitment is solemnly affirmed. It implies a greater degree of seriousness and obligation than is usually assigned to common conversation. To prove this point, for example, the Nazis swore an oath to God as well. Wonder if its the same one? Seeing a troop in turban or beard doesn't force their beliefs on me. I don't feel indoctrinated into their religion because of how they look. But reading words, hearing verses spoken kinda feels that way. What was verse the kid had on the door? The bible is full of offensive assertions. If he wasn't trying to make a point about it; ask yourself this...why did he need to have it on the "outside" of the door and not the bathroom mirror or locker door all expectable personal places we view every day? Religion doesn't exclude troops from deployment, conscientious objector status does and must be proven. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred you ask...ask the Westborough Baptist church or page through a history book. Religion is frequently used to support those issues. As you can see in various parts of the world today. I doubt it was that black and white. did everyone else have personal messages on their white boards? Or are those used for a specific function? I'm guessing it wasn't used to display family photos, hello kitty stickers or movie quotes. You see what I'm saying, it's the US governments white board or at least the door is. With that being said I'm sure any personally messages not pertaining to training were not authorized.

Response by TSgt James Carson made Jun 8 at 2015 2:24 PM

2015-06-08T14:24:55-04:00

Our money has a great message on it. IN GOD WE TRUST. Keep it that way and pry for our country.