When did bullying, degrading, & shear embarrassment became a form of communication?

SGT(P) Gloria Francis — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:08:05 -0400

I am so tired of seeing 'so call' leaders bully, degrade, & embarrass others & think it's a form of communication. We are at a lost if this continues to happen. Just because you have the rank or left in charge does not mean you're a leader. When we speak to others who are lower ranking than you with disrespect think to yourself, "Would I speak like this to a higher rank?" At the end of the day, I would rather someone respect me for who I am than the rank I wear.

Response by LTC Jason Strickland made Jul 4 at 2014 10:38 AM

LTC Jason Strickland — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 10:38:38 -0400

Well spoken SGT(P) Gloria Francis. Everyone deserves to be spoken to with respect and dignity.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2014 11:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 11:33:54 -0400

What exactly are you talking about? Please be specific. I don't think bullying or degrading subordinates is a common theme for leaders in the Army.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 4 at 2014 5:44 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 17:44:14 -0400

I will only say this: Praise in PUBLIC. Chew ass in private. Bullying is not chewing ass. Demeaning is not chewing ass. Embarassing.....there's a time and place to embarass someone with the results of their failure...but again, time and place.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Jul 4 at 2014 7:49 PM

MSG Floyd Williams — Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:49:57 -0400

When there is a issue with an subordinate, first a verbal warning depending on the situation, if that don't work a formal counseling in writing, if that don't work the individual need to face UCMJ Article 15. A mature leader don't have to scream and cuss unless if it is a safety issue, movies do paint a real bad picture of the military. Leadership Courses teach about loyalty and respect for subordinate personnel. This is no time for degrading any military personnel, it wouldn't take much for a person to harbor the resentment and take it with him/her to battle. Who is the first person probably will get kill in battle? The Leader who cause one of his own to hate him or her, "friendly fire" isn't a legitimate excuse for certain situations.

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made Jul 8 at 2014 3:37 PM

SFC Stephen Hester — Tue, 08 Jul 2014 15:37:02 -0400

I know from experience that there are NCOs and Officers who lack the ability to communicate effectively. I suppose their shortcomings as leaders cause them to overreact and come across as aggressive and abusive. With better training and mentoring early in their careers this can be avoided or at least minimized in its severity.

Or maybe they are just jerks who were promoted into leadership roles. I knew plenty of those, too.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 8:09 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:09:58 -0500

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member bullies me!!! LOL. No but it starts as children and telling everyone that they are number one they are special. etc..

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 8:36 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:36:21 -0500

I've been on the receiving end of this sort of treatment, SGT(P) Gloria Francis, so I know just what you mean and I agree. I think people resort to that sort of behavior when they are "in over their heads" or when they are challenged in some way. When I was last treated like that, I think it was because my "leader" felt intimidated by my expertise in a particular area, an area in which he fancied himself an expert.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 11:49 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 23:49:56 -0500

Can you elaborate on the situation. I have seen soldiers get offended for merely being corrected. Calling someone a Private is not wrong. That is what they are. But if it goes into derogatory words then it would be another situation.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 16 at 2014 10:13 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:13:55 -0500

I think this would be the exception vs the norm. Leaders know how to motivate people. They also know what toxic leadership is and how to correct this among others. I don't think I have ever seen real bullying in my 17 years, that is the systematic demoralizing of a person to achieve a dominant position. It may happen, but just have not seen it.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2014 7:29 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 19:29:23 -0500

Bullying, degrading and embarrasment have always been forms of communication. The careful application of fear and violence have always been effective forms of communication. Just depends on the message you are trying to send. As long as you are trying to send the message that it's "my way or the highway," that everyone else is a cog in MY machine and that you'll crush anyone who dares get in your way...pretty effective if you ask me. Now...if you are trying to foster a command climate that is based on trust and embodies the principles of mission command, you may want to chose some other options. The "toxic leader" of today was the hard-ass of yesteryear who you put up with because that was the way it was. This isn't a new thing. It's been around a while. When did it become a form of communication? Ever since one person came to power and found out they could weild it against someone else to get what they wanted...without consequence. Now...it's up to leaders to enforce the standards and the principles that we hold ourselves to. We make the consequences and we have to find and weed out those subordinate leaders who don't live up to the standards we profess.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 1:03 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 01:03:16 -0500

I think there are several reasons why reasons why this happens. One is that someone started out early with a toxic leader and probably grew up thinking this how you handle people. Maybe they were bullied in High School and now this is their chance to get back at the world. This is the chip on the shoulder syndrome or Nappolian Complex.

Another is that many people lack social skills to work with others. Those are the ones who do not have interpersonal skills. They are the ones who think that know one will do what they say unless they are bullying or berating. Typically these people may be positions that they are not poised to be in.

Many people lack a command presence and are not really respected and they do what the guy above does.

I had a commander once that everyone thought was a real goober. Everyone talked behind his back. In one minute he would act like he was an easy going guy. Another minute he would berate people. If something was not done exactly his way that assigned us with no guidance, he would make comments like "is this how you do work for your commander?" He would make a demeaning comment to someone in public but then would say this is all just me mentoring us to be better officers.

To top it off he would write stellar award packages for people. Before one assumes he is being a good guy, it looks for commander to have group or wing level award winners under them. When they would they would win he would let us know how his mentor-ship is really molding us to be good officers, and we were being recognized for it. Then a day later he would let us know that we aren't up to his standards again. And the cycle would continue.

I always learned that if you have to tell people you are the commander, then you aren't really a good commander." UCMJ tells us we will follow the orders over us. It does not say anything to the effect that I have to go above and beyond what you tell me. We usually do because we are professionals.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 5:42 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 05:42:05 -0500

I see this some in my unit too but I'm proud to have great leadership who stops in in its tracks before it goes too far. Some people get a little authority and it goes straight to their head. That not only makes you a shitty leader, but you lose the respect of your men who will be the ones who have your back downrange. Thats a scary scenario if you ask me. I personally want soldiers who respect me and work hard for me and you don't get that by treating them as less of a soldier than you and talking down to them, you get that by treating them as brothers and working right beside them. Lead by example hoooah!!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2014 6:03 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 06:03:33 -0500

WHOA WHOA WHOA. a loud leader is not always "toxic". you do have to realize that most of these "older" leaders grew up in a generation that yelling was the key to execution, myself included. i learned that talking to Soldiers was a much more effective means of communication. but it took me a long time to finally fgure that out. Does a form of "talking down" happen. Yes, at every rank, at every position, at every age, and at every post. I have seen very senior leaders do it.

just like you, i was intrigued as to why. I noticed that i talk softer to the Soldiers than i do the NCOs. i guess because my expectations from them were a little higher than a private. (not justifying it at all). so i began to work on myself. but most of these leaders have earned the rank they are at now because their way of communication has never failed them in the past. its hard to change. and believe you me, if you actually ever get a chance to sit and talk to these leaders behind closed doors, you will see that they are actually quite gentle and professional. (that is most, not all)

i finally learned a valuable lesson. THE DAY A SOLDIER STOPS BRINGING YOU HIS PROBLEMS IS THE DAY YOU ARE NO LONGER A VALUABLE LEADER!!!. make yourself approachable SGT(P) Gloria Francis. you can learn as much from bad leaders as you can from good leaders. its up to you to decide how to use the experiences you gain. good luck sergeant. you are the future, i am soon to be the past. i am sure you will make this army a better place.

Response by SPC David S. made Nov 19 at 2014 1:38 PM

SPC David S. — Wed, 19 Nov 2014 13:38:46 -0500

I would question the leadership abilities of an individual that relied on fear and intimidation to lead their troopers. If there is a teachable moment I think there is a way to go about it where the individual see's it as such and feels better having learned for the mistake not belittled. I was very lucky to have good NCO's and officers around me while I was in. One thing that was consistent in their their approach was they always gave an explanation as to why something needed to be done in a certain way from proper grooming to cover fire. This type of behavior needs to be challenged and policed by peers.