What would your reaction be to a service member on crutches wearing tennis shoes with color?

2015-04-04T22:21:49-04:00

I've been stewing on this for a few weeks, but I'm dying to hear the opinions of others out there. If you saw a service member on crutches in brightly colored tennis shoes in NWUs (or ACUs, etc) how would you react?

As far as I have read, there is no specific Navy regulation addressing an instance of an injured sailor with a tennis shoe chit, but I'll give some background as to why this is such an issue for me:
After 6 weeks on crutches, I was informed that the Chief's Mess didn't like my pink Asics. My chain of command initially approved them, deciding that forcing me to buy a new pair of shoes because I broke my knee cap wasn't entirely warranted. I understood where they were coming from about the flashiness, but I still thought it was petty. I was given 24 hours to purchase a new pair of athletic shoes, which just irritated me even more. I went to the mall, to three different shoe stores. I took pictures of the shoe walls and sent them to my ALPO, who agreed that he didn't see any solid colored shoes. I purchased black Nikes that had pink swooshes on the sides. (The black/white combo shoes weren't available in my size in any of the stores, and the one pair of solid colored shoes were $200) Everyone seemed to be fine with those, between my chain of command and the other shops in the building. I went to medical to turn in some paperwork, where a CTICS took me aside and told me that I didn't look smart in my uniform and that I clearly lack respect for those who have gone before me and fought and died in the uniform. I was.....speechless, appalled, and insulted.
After relaying the conversation to my chain of command, they apologized to me on this Senior Chief's behalf, and we decided together that, although my new shoes made me much more 'inconspicuous,' I would wear my too-tight boot camp sneakers to appease the Chief's Mess. It's been a few weeks, and I still can't help but feel some serious resentment every time I see a pair of anchors.
Am I being overly sensitive? Would you have felt the same way if you saw a sailor/soldier/airman/marine in anything other than solid colored shoes?

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Apr 20 at 2015 1:59 PM

2015-04-20T13:59:09-04:00

I can't speak to your exact command, but I would have the following general thoughts:

1) If you are in crutches and needed to buy new shoes, they should have offered to send somebody with you to get those new shoes. Being on crutches makes transportation and getting around quite difficult. This would have tactfully addressed the 24 hour window you were given (assuming somebody was to drive you).

2) Correcting somebody over shoes is one thing, but verbally berating somebody over shoes is just unnecessary and unprofessional. Saying that you don't respect those who have died in uniform is doubly unprofessional. I'm glad that your chain of command apologized on behalf of that chief, but unfortunately those statements are toxic to the military and without that person being corrected, he/she will continue to spew toxic drivel to more military members, which in turn does nothing but degrade morale and cause resentment. It is an episode of complete lack of tact that I'm sorry you had to experience.

In general, this type of petty stuff is what drives a lot of people out of the military. In the end, we can just do the best we can and help change the system by a positive example and by not standing down when we are right.

I believe that what you experienced was well defined by WWII veteran and author, Paul Fussell:

"Chickenshit refers to behavior that makes military life worse than it need be: petty harassment of the weak by the strong; open scrimmage for power and authority and prestige; sadism thinly disguised as necessary discipline; a constant "paying off of old scores"; and insistence on the letter rather than the spirit of the ordinances... Chickenshit is so called -- instead of horse -- or bull -- or elephant shit -- because it is small-minded and ignoble and takes the trivial seriously."

Response by PO2 Alana Nielson made Apr 20 at 2015 2:29 PM

2015-04-20T14:29:23-04:00

I'm in the process of pitching a policy to our command's triad with the hope of preventing future sailors from experiencing what I did. I agree that it's a perfect example of toxic leadership, but I'm just an E-4, so my opinion doesn't matter

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 20 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-04-20T14:47:58-04:00

Why did the CTICS tell you that you did not look professional. Was it the shoes? You need to follow your medical profile, because there might be second and third order effects.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:05 PM

2015-04-20T15:05:58-04:00

PO2 Alana Nielson personally, this is something that irks me because, I do get the point that, for your best, you shouldn't be using combat boots. I get that but, at the same time, you have to keep an appearance of the uniform. For the Army, there are options like the pictures I attached with this response. Once I asked a 1LT that was pregnant why she didn't get one of these shoes and her answer was that they are too expensive. I didn't add anything else. I don't know if LTC Yinon Weiss have seen these.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:12 PM

2015-04-20T15:12:12-04:00

Well I would say that this was not handled appropriately. I would question if you have ever wore the shoe before in a PT setting with your unit. Ideally you should have a pair of conservative shoes to wear in the PT uniform. I think solid bright pink would distract from the uniform.

But in such a case like this it is a bit too late for this. I think it could have advised you a bit better and that other sailor's remarks were completely out of line. I think I would have got the black and pink one and just colored over the pink to make them all black. It would have been a hassle but that could have been an option.

We have to remain in a professional appearance but we should also behave like professionals. I don't think they were professional in the way they handled it. But to be honest when I see soldiers with extremely bright shoes in ACUs I do think it takes away from the uniform. But so do the crutches. When someone is injured I don't think it is really much of an issue. I would pretty much let it slide. But it was regular PT shoes then I would have addressed it.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-04-20T15:13:28-04:00

I can't speak to Navy regulations, but had I seen the incident in question, I'd have been getting in the Navy Chief's face. A service member is on crutches with a broken knee, and the first thing you're worrying about is how colorful her sneakers are????

That kind of crap is why good soldiers get out after one enlistment.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Apr 20 at 2015 3:20 PM

2015-04-20T15:20:16-04:00

I believe MAJ Yinon Weiss pretty much nailed it!

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:26 PM

2015-04-20T15:26:05-04:00

Tennis shoes that are authorized in a PT uniform should suffice. I truly don't care what color your tennis shoes are. Wearing tennis shoes in ABU, ACU or any other uniform does not look "smart" anyways, they are not intended to be worn in day to day uniform, but if you are injured and have a waiver for tennis shoes then who cares what color they are. Until someone can produce an authorized color of tennis shoe to wear in the day to day uniform then any color should be fine. I think people get a little bent out of shape over the small things and should be concentrating on the bigger issues. The color of my shoes are not going to detract me from doing a good job. Just my opinion.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 3:32 PM

2015-04-20T15:32:27-04:00

PO2 Alana Nielson, you are an injured Sailor. I am not acquainted with Navy regulations or standards, but from the information you have shared here, I am less than impressed with the level of care demonstrated for you by your chain of command in the aftermath of your injury. As stated by 1LT Scott Doyle, in the Army, we have no restriction on brightly-colored athletic shoes (although this wasn't always the case). Have your bright and shiny shoes been acceptable for wear with the Navy PT uniform? I also concur with LTC Yinon Weiss, that your organization should not only have provided you more than 24 hours to find more "suitable" shoes for wear with your duty uniform (this would have opened the option of shopping online, offering both more options and lower prices), when you did travel to the mall, the very least they could have done was assist you by giving you a lift; that's just basic troop care 101!

I am impressed with the attitude and the approach you are taking in response to this situation. Rather than taking the "whoa is me," or "f_ _k the Navy!" approach that would be the easy and most tempting course when confronted with an adverse situation such as this, I admire your idea to take this back to your chain of command for a review. Chances are, they've never given serious consideration only because nobody has compelled them to do so yet. You say, "I'm just an E-4, so my opinion doesn't matter.' BS! Your opinion matters completely! Your experience with the CTICS and being forced to wear shoes that are too small for your feet when you go to chow are warning signals on the dashboard of your Chain of Command that there's some toxicity affecting Sailors at the junior level right now. Unless those issues are addressed, your organization will soon have serious morale and retention issues!

See, your opinion really does matter!

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Apr 20 at 2015 3:32 PM

2015-04-20T15:32:44-04:00

As long as it's a legit profile, as far as the Army is concerned, AR 670-1 does not specificy color for running shoes. The only ones that are not allowed are the toe-style shoes that were popular a few years back.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 20 at 2015 3:37 PM

2015-04-20T15:37:34-04:00

There are good shoes.

There are cheap shoes.

There are shoes that are appropriate in uniform.

There are shoes that will aid in recovery.

There are shoes that should be inserted in that Chief's posterior.

After "attempting" to locate a shoe that fit, and was of a subdued color, I would have called it due diligence, and been done. "Chief. I appreciate your input, and after the guidance you provided, I went to the store and attempted to find something that met your criteria that wouldn't injure me further. I wasn't able to do so. I will keep trying on a periodic basis until my chit expires, and if an option presents itself, I will take it. Until then, I need to do my best to get better. Thank you so much for your concern."

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Apr 20 at 2015 3:39 PM

2015-04-20T15:39:22-04:00

In my humble opinion, after purchasing a more subdued pair of shoes, and being berated a second time, I would say you have better self control than I do. That would have been the point where I would have "respectfully" asked CTICS if he were willing to pay for the $200 plain black sneakers so that his fragile uniform sensibilities were not offended over a sailor on crutches. I understand that it would go over like a turd in the coffee pot, but the fact that the command issued an apology shows that at least somebody understands how out of line the remarks made to you about dishonoring those who died in uniform were.
Yes the Navy is a military organization, yes the uniform we wear is important. Humanity is also important. What happened here was an instance of a senior enlisted losing their humanity in the name of regulation.
Kudos to you PO2 Alana Nielson for not stooping to his level.

Response by BG David Fleming III made Apr 20 at 2015 4:54 PM

2015-04-20T16:54:37-04:00

Customers and courtesy would dictate the wearing of colors that do not bring added undue attention to yourself than you already have.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 8:14 PM

2015-04-20T20:14:09-04:00

My reaction? They are injured and will be back in uniform footwear when the doctor releases them. Simple.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 8:22 PM

2015-04-20T20:22:25-04:00

Now that I have re-read this, i am pissed off for you. Traditions and appearances are important. But this Chief would likely bust your chops for appearing disheveled after you just committed an act of valor deserving of the Medal of Honor. SMH

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 8:28 PM

2015-04-20T20:28:57-04:00

I'm unaware of any rule one way or the other. I wouldn't care while the sailor had a medical chit to wear tennis shoes in uniform, as long as I didn't feel that the person in question was intentionally going out of their way to pick something that wasn't appropriate. For example, I'd ignore shoe colors, but come down hard on someone wearing the sneakers that have wheels in the heels.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2015 9:04 PM

2015-04-20T21:04:01-04:00

OK, I haven't had the opportunity for one of rare rants in sometime now, but here goes on this one: Bare with me, you're gonna be here for a minute.

STORY TIME: I had a similar experience with one of my Soldiers back in the early 90s. One of my Soldiers who was on crutches due to a broken leg came to see me after, I quote, "getting my ass chewed out by the Battalion Command Sergeant Major because my athletic shoes were not black!" I already knew the shoes the Soldier had on were the same shoe's he wore to PT every day before his accident. I told the Soldier I would take care of it, not worry about it and if the CSM said anything to him again, to inform him that I ( First Sergeant) had instructed him to continue to wear them and that I would take it up with him at my conveinence.

I talked with the company commander and informed him the CSM was butting into unit business and wanted him to know I was going to see the CSM and that I expected him to back me up. He asked what was I going to say. I told him, I was going to tell him, that he was not in that Soldier's chain of command, and I authorized him to wear those shoes. CPT M... said, OK,Top, it's your ass, but worked for him.

So the next morning at PT, I went up to the CSM and brought up the subject. He started to get into his CSM antics about it and then I asked him, Sergeant Major do you own a solid pair of athletic shoes...answer was no! I asked if he were to wind up on crutches would he go out and buy a new pair of solid black athletic shoes to wear instead of the gray/red/white shoes he wore to PT everyday. He said , Yes I surely would. I said, Great, since you don't need crutches, PFC xxxxx wears a size 10.5; you can go out and buy him a pair, then he will meet your personal standard; but until then he will continue to wear the athletic shoes he's worn to PT since he got here. That is company leadership issue and decision and even though his personnal preference is known, it's not being considered. Next time, talk to me before you jump on one of my Soldiers, I got this!" Yeah he stayed pissed at me for about a week, but he got over it.

Unfortunately at times, some leaders choose to NOTapply what I call "common sense leadership", and then just go off the deep end because they feel they have the authority to do so.

Unless things have changed since my days in uniform, the Chief's Mess is an NCO Support Channel and fill an advisory role to the commander. They advise, commanders make decisions.

In my honest and maybe a lonely opinion, I (me, NOT YOU) would have told that Chief and the Chief's Mess to go take a long walk off a short pier: that it was a decision for me and Commander to determine and we had already made it.

Now with that being said, I may have personally agreed with their not liking the shoes, however, my common sense would have told me, we will not incurr the addtional cost to you of buying a new pair of athletic shoes because it was not in tune with his personal touchy feely sensibilities. If the Air Force feels that black athletic shoes are the only shoes to be worn when in ACUs or whatever when on crutches....then the USAF should either issue or pay for them.

Now one last thing and then I'm done and moving on: I hope you will put this incident in your memory bank for later on, when you become the supervisor or CPO and something like this happens to one of your subordinates. Remember that there are specific links in the chain of command and there are specific links to NCO support channels. They may not always agree, only one has the final say. When your time comes....advise and decide carefully! Right decisions are not always popular, but when you make it you have to stand behind it, take the heat and not fold under outside pressure, regardless!

I disagree with the Chief's action and the way he handled it, however Ii'm even more disappointed in your unit leadership (1SGT/Cdr) in not coming to your support due to their earlier decision. That bites my rear-end more than the Chiefs action.

And LTC Yinon Weiss also hit a grand slam with his comment.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Apr 20 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-04-20T21:25:17-04:00

I would see HIS ABILITY rather than DISABILITY

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 20 at 2015 9:36 PM

2015-04-20T21:36:03-04:00

My reply, "Chief, you got your pond, but this is my puddle. Show me the reg and I'll have her change shoes. Better yet, Why don't you buy her a pair so she get the right ones."

Response by SFC Miguel Lopez made Apr 20 at 2015 10:27 PM

2015-04-20T22:27:45-04:00

You need to get over the situation. Maybe if there were clear and enforcing policies or SOP on dress and appearance the situation would not have existed. Why don't you channel your frustration into drafting a policy or SOP and recommended to the commander who knows it may become a force policy.

Response by SFC Michael Jackson, MBA made Apr 20 at 2015 11:31 PM

2015-04-20T23:31:50-04:00

I wouldn't react to this. I don't the regulation specifying a specific color of shoes. As long he or she is authorized to wear tennis shoes. no issue!

Response by PO3 Reynaldo Rosas made Apr 21 at 2015 9:48 AM

2015-04-21T09:48:56-04:00

As far as I know, by regulation have to be your PT shoe. Black or your white and blue. We had same problems on my last command.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-04-21T10:12:30-04:00

The best thing you can do for your command, the sailors who rely on you and the Navy is to heal as quickly as possible without re-injuring yourself. Tennis shoes with a utility uniform is part of that. Anyone that feeds you a line that you are disrespecting the uniform and those that fought and died in it probably have never been shot at. Opinions are my own.

Response by Sgt Brian Hoffman made Apr 21 at 2015 11:17 AM

2015-04-21T11:17:48-04:00

I always cringe when seeing tennis shoes in any uniform besides pt gear. Work environments vary, but why can't these prescriptive tennis shoe situations simply prescribe civies?

If we are trying to prepare and train these folks for professional environments, what better opportunity than to get them squared away during injury or condition?

I'm going to catch some flack for this (don't care), but seeing a pregnant female in uniform is just awful. Just put them in professional civilian gear (obviously situation dictates) until they can once again wear the uniform to the standards set for everyone in the uniform reg.

Response by MSG David Chappell made Apr 21 at 2015 1:39 PM

2015-04-21T13:39:10-04:00

I had just come from Grenada and was sent to Panama for advanced training. I spent a total of four months in and out of the jungle and upon returning to the states had discovered that during the training I had broken several toes as well as damaging and bruising my heel. Long story short I couldn't wear boots or tennis shoes so I was on post wearing jungle fatigues and flip-flops. Add to that at the time I was on jump status and was also wearing a maroon beret. I had a first sergeant stop me to find out why I was wearing flip-flops and as I was pulling out my paperwork to show my profile an injury we had a lieutenant colonel walk past us wearing one boot and one flip-flop walking on a cane. The lieutenant colonel stop to listen to what was being said and asked the first sergeant Y with a profile in hand signed by the chief surgeon at Fort Bragg he was questioning it. The first turn stated that he simply didn't like the look of it and was going to notify my chain of command. My chain of command was fully aware of it and I already had one counseling statement because I had refused to wear the flip-flops at one point and I put my boots back on only did injure my feet even more. I guess a long story short here is I can sympathize with trying to maintain a professional look but at the same time when the doctor has given your profile it is up to the chain of command what is acceptable and not acceptable for the prescribed footwear.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2015 2:28 PM

2015-04-21T14:28:06-04:00

Shopping for shoes today isn't as easy as it was back when I was on active duty. Tennis shoes came in pretty basic colors. I've tried looking for basic white with little to no trim and end up having to special order something.

Response by 1SG Joe Messier made Apr 21 at 2015 7:47 PM

2015-04-21T19:47:18-04:00

Stand up for yourself! Do your research and make sure your in the right and just respectfully tell them no. The approach your using will do nothing but take cash out of your pocket, probably worsen your injury and make you turn to the internet for a place to vent and that's dangerous. Try this "Chief, what is the standard and what regulation can I reference to make sure I get the right pair?" When he tells you, go read it, print the page and carry it with you. Keep wearing your shoes if they are within the regs and keep carrying that paper. But by god quit spending your money to try and please people. If he's right, he's right. If he's wrong be respectful and stand up for yourself. He might actually think more of you if you stand up to him. But then again he just might be a........let me remind you I was Army, so take this with a grain of salt. I know once you make E7 or higher in the Navy you can walk on water and your word is gospel.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2015 1:35 PM

2015-04-22T13:35:23-04:00

You will find it hard to find an all solid color when it comes to a good pair of sneakers. I doubt very serious when military folks go pick out a pair of running shoes do they say, Oh let me get a solid color in case I break my toe/foot. Sneakers are purchased for how you run/workout and they come in various colors. Might I add very wild colors.

Response by PO3 David Fries made Jul 6 at 2015 6:48 AM

2015-07-06T06:48:28-04:00

You know, I never bothered looking up the regs before handing out a sneaker chit myself. I do know that I would have heard all about it had any of my Marines were wearing something that wasn't within regs. Of course, my Marine Chain of command would probably have been harder on us Docs anyway. Lol

Take to heart how not to act to a Junior and carry on smartly.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2015 4:14 PM

2015-07-18T16:14:28-04:00

To be honest I think you are being sensitive, I think while in uniform it's more important to look professional then to look pretty. You wouldn't show up to a corporate meeting in a $500 suit and bright pink tennis shoes, you'd want them to blend in as much as possible which is what you have to keep in mind while in uniform:)

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-09-25T18:00:17-04:00

Being at my old training command you see a lot of sailors right out of boot camp with shin splints on crutches. They would wear whatever shoes were comfortable for them and weren't belittled or anything. Even on the ship I am on now. During quite ship you will see people in hot pink tennis shoes or whatever with their NWUs on. So my reaction would simply be that if I saw it I really wouldn't question it. This Senior Chief may have been from a strict command where they had no tolerance for little things like that. Personally, I believe that it is all about what you are used to. On the other hand that is no excuse for him to belittle you without even knowing your situation or the fact you had gone through your personal chain of command was highly unprofessional and I don't think anyone should have been treated like that.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2015 12:02 PM

2015-09-30T12:02:59-04:00

I am going through something similar. I broke my 5th metatarsal on my left foot at command pt last Friday. I am on crutches and a boot for at least 10 weeks. On my good foot I am wearing my normal running shoes (flat grey UA with green on bottom). My Chief expects me to wear the normal steel toe boot. Crutches are already hard to maneuver as is. Ugg! Medical said its my choice.