What would your corrective training be in this situation?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:46:54 -0400

Soldier went on leave and came back, was supposed to sign in by midnight and didn't sign in until 0400, 4 hours past authorized leave. Same soldier then text his nco that "he didn't get enough sleep and was not going to come to PT". His battle who picked him up from the airport also sent the same text to the same nco. A different soldier said he received a snapchat message from soldier 2 at 2030 the previous night showing soldier 1&2 out on the town drinking. What would your corrective training be if you were the nco?

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Oct 18 at 2016 9:53 AM

COL Lee Flemming — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 09:53:54 -0400

You do mean Article 15 right? Hard to correct lack of integrity...!

Response by SFC Chad Sowash made Oct 18 at 2016 10:29 AM

SFC Chad Sowash — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:29:52 -0400

Possibly an Article 15 (it's not always that cut and dry). I do not believe it's hard to correct integrity - it's our jobs as NCOs to do just that. As a Sr. NCO we are taught to take everything into account and provide counseling specific to the infraction. These counseling sessions would not merely be focused on the traditional "corrective training opportunities", they would also include heightened awareness of how these infractions damage the very fabric of the team. I have on several occasions selected movies and books which illustrate these areas, have the soldiers read/watch, and write an essay on the actual subject. As an Infantry Drill Sergeant - be assured - there would also be physical actions as well. Depending on the solider's past infractions there could be many creative variants of physical actions (ie soldiers lead every PT session for 2 mos - xtra duty etc.) and intellectual ways an NCO could deal with this situation. Just remember, slapping an Article 15 on a soldier is never the extent of an answer - an NCO must lead by teaching, not just punishing.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 10:33 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:33:23 -0400

The Soldier is considered AWOL/UA if they didn't report back as what is stated on the leave chit; plain and simple. Since the Soldier #1 and #2 didn't go to PT (which I would imagine he needed to be there) that's disobeying a direct order. Make sure to gather enough credible information to verify that is what those two soldiers were doing; the snapchat message would help (make sure it's the two soldiers not just some random ploy to out them for nothing). I would grab the two at the crack of dawn, tell them to meet me in my office (I'm not Army so idk if E5s have offices, lol). Have the two report, tell them that their excuse of not getting enough sleep is their own fault whether they were out drinking or not. Let them know you have the video that shows them drinking the night previously. Let Soldier #1 know that he has been AWOL/UA since 0000 (aka balls) and that he broke UCMJ article along with disobeying a direct order from a higher rank. I would recommend a counseling chit for both soldiers (if you can't write one yourself) and some extra duty on the side. Maybe then it will teach that at 0000 (or whatever time the leave chit states) ends your fun; you're back at work.

You don't always have to be forceful when you want to get someone who is deliberately doesn't want to follow regs. Usually when someone is calm yet they are dishing out some serious crap rather than yelling at you, that's when you panic. I've used it before on junior sailors when I'm usually (and I quote because my friend, who is an E6 said) "a fun-loving sailor who is just like one of guys; like among peers, trusting and reliable". Scared the crap out of them, but I never had issues with them while they were under my wing.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Oct 18 at 2016 10:49 AM

MGySgt James Forward — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 10:49:53 -0400

A few choices, first I like to keep things out of record books (career killer crap) when appropriate. I would roust the two out of the rack and have them "escorted" them to the PT field by any number of capable NCO's. They would participate in the PT run to the end of planned activities, then we would discuss the 0400 sign in. What about the missed 4 hours? Personal counseling sheet on both personal: 1) appointed place of duty, 2) partying on leave is okay, but not to the point of not being able to toe the line for formation or work schedule, 3) missing your 0000 sign in is considered UA (unauthorized absence). I would suspect that the reason he did not sing in was because he was to intoxicated. Any further occurrences will be forward up the chain of command for appropriate action at an Article 15.
The Master Gunny would like to take these two on a little run to the top of Margarita Peak at Camp Pendleton. They might leave a puke trail for you to follow. Semper Fi,

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 11:32 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:32:34 -0400

Personally I'd have drunk PT'd them and if it went further from there move towards an Article 15

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Oct 18 at 2016 11:52 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:52:08 -0400

Honestly, you've been put in a hard spot. You have 2 options to go. Official paperwork, or in house paperwork. Personally I prefer the in house approach because if they don't straighten up the first time, you can go straight up the chain of command with official paperwork. I definitely agree with Master Guns. It's your place to tell them where to be, not their place to tell you whether or not they show up. So I'd show up on their doorstep an hour before PT is set to start to make sure they are up and ready. It sucks for you being their NCO, but thems the breaks in a leadership role. I don't understand why he signed back in late. If it's after working hours, he still could have signed in and enjoyed the rest of his night. If his flight was delayed which seems like the lie he's trying to use, then he should also be aware that he's supposed to keep his NCOs in the loop regarding any change in travel plans/flights delays etc.

It's not your responsibility to make sure he gets a full nights sleep, it's his. And his mismanagement of his own liberty/leave is going to force him to suffer the consequences. Then you should tell him that you are aware of their lies and punish accordingly. I don't know if they're repeat offenders. But they should be made aware of the seriousness of their actions. Document everything because like I said, if they step out of line or mouth off or whatever, then you can just put it in the command's hands and wash your hands clean of them.

You can't be their buddy in this though. They need to know they are being punished.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Oct 18 at 2016 12:41 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 12:41:02 -0400

These type of questions are the hardest to get/give a good answer to because there are so many different considerations in play. First, is there proof of this picture sent via Snapchat (with a time stamp)? Second, do either of these Soldiers have a history of such behavior? Did the SM going on leave receive a safety briefing that clearly stated when he was to be back on duty? The questions are endless and so can be the responses. I agree with those that said to handle it at the lost level if possible. It's not about keeping things a secret from the 1SG or CO, but rather let them focus on the bigger fish to fry.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 1:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 13:12:40 -0400

You always begin these things by going to the barracks and getting the Soldiers. Make sure they are okay and escorting them to PT. After PT you question the Soldiers about what happened. Get their version of things. You also need to understand that some things are inexcusable. Not signing in on time happens, planes are delayed, car troubles, etc. Clearly that isn't the case and you know that but you still have to get their side of the "story" first.
Now these two knuckleheads are clearly missing discipline. It sounds to me like they need to be dealt with accordingly. You can get pretty creative with corrective training and, according to the regs, corrective training can be done after normal duty hours. Every night at midnight for two weeks I would have them go to the staff duty desk and "sign in". Failure to do so will result in further punishment. Then, to correct the missed PT due to not enough sleep, I would have the two soldiers hold daily training at 1300 (again for two weeks) during which they will go over every aspect of FM7-22. Failure to properly prepare for the day's class will result in further disciplinary action being taken.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 3:40 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 15:40:56 -0400

Counseling on both for their infractions. Then the corrective actions would be to have an hourly sign in with the Orderly room and/or the Platoon Sergeant, starting from 0400 until 1900 during the work week. On the weekends, I would have them do the sign in with CQ every 3 hours starting from 0600 until 2100. For the one that signed in past midnight, he would also receive a corrective action of writing a 750 word essay (in print, no errors of any kind, and in pen), on the importance of accountability and the consequences of being charged with AWOL.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 4:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:03:35 -0400

If their behavior up to this point had always been exemplary I might have considered extra training, however I suspect that behavior like this didn't just materialize out of nowhere. I believe a summarized Article 15 would likely be far more appropriate in a case like this. Allowing them to believe that they can get away with behavior like this without any serious repercussions is setting them up for failure down the road.

That isn't to say that extra training doesn't need to happen, it does... I'm just saying that extra training alone is probably not enough to impress upon these soldiers the seriousness of their indiscretions.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 4:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:24:24 -0400

I believe many of the responses given are dead on counselling and corrective action, if this becomes a habit then art 15, this also goes to show that what is put up on social media may come back to bite you in the ass

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2016 4:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 16:56:09 -0400

For the late sign in it is easy. Make sure S1 charges him for the whole day. Early in your career 1 day is a lot (later on you will lose 3 or 4 on October 1st and not care). You can ignore his reasoning for not coming to PT, he missed formation, treat it however you would if he just wasn't there without notification. His statement sounds like he has a misplaced sense of authority or entitlement (telling you what he was going to do) and that should be addressed in counseling. Now, if I was the NCO, and I have been, I would coordinate for corrective training at a time most inconvenient for him. Such as having him write a paper, starting at 2100 on Friday and again on Saturday. The length of the paper should make sure he misses prime club or bar time. You might have an issue these days training him at an odd hour. If your commander has your back, he could surely revoke his off post PRIVILEGES based on his habits and failure to report. Checking in with the CQ could be used to reinforce that. When you do the 4856, remember NOT to put a timeframe on it. You can't say "you will do this for 2 weeks". You tell him he does it until the behavior is corrected, and you will EVALUATE him in two weeks to check. I would also include: "based on YOUR estimation that you were not receiving sufficient sleep, I want to maximize your opportunity to exercise a sleep plan, I will help you by requiring you to be in your barracks room NLT 2100 nightly...until such a time that you feel you are getting the appropriate amount of sleep. We will evaluate your sleep plan in two weeks."

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Oct 18 at 2016 7:49 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 19:49:10 -0400

I don't know if I would accept he said / I said from another Soldier or for that matter Snap Chat, I think I would go for more than one witness here if punishment is involved. I would ask the Soldier and see if he self incriminates and is honest though.

In the Army I served in, we were responsible for not signing in for leave on time even if the flight was late. Really should not schedule travel that close to leave sign-in time. So I don't know how things are now in the Army if they now put up with a late flight as an excuse for not signing in on time but if they do..........then follow precedent there. On the not going to PT, not his decision that is a failure to report violation if you ask me. So either way you have him for both violations with one FTR, in my view. FTR when I was in was a negative counseling statement for first offense. Negative Counseling and Extra Duty for second offense. Art 15 for third Offense. However, FTR plus missing movement would be ART 15 first time offense. Missing movement would be an EDRE that he knew was comming or unit rolling out to a preplanned FTX.

Response by SGT David T. made Oct 19 at 2016 7:51 AM

SGT David T. — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 07:51:48 -0400

It depends. a pic at 2030 from the day before in itself establishes nothing. He could have been back at home by 2100. I would find out why they were late. If it was through no fault of their own, then I would let it slide. Travelling carries with it a risk of not getting where you are going on time. The 0400 sign in honestly didn't harm anything. They weren't late for formation as a result of that so I most likely would simply have a conversation with them about it and that be the end of it. The texting and telling the NCO that they were not going to PT is another matter. They should ask not dictate.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 9:12 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 09:12:57 -0400

do some damn front back go's if you know what I mean. that's the problem we have these days with disrespect to direct orders and disregard to personal responsibility. If you are told to do some thing YOU EXECUTE !! we are not asking , we are telling !!

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Oct 19 at 2016 11:33 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 11:33:47 -0400

Now, you see, these things never happened in our unit. I recall ONCE when someone didn't show up for PT. As a unit, we ran across the base, and waited for the errant soul to get his Tucas up and into formation ,before heading out to do our run.
People don't just NOT show up in the USMC... well, it happened once, but in his defense, he was murdered the night before. Other than that...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2016 1:08 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 13:08:50 -0400

If the soldiers lived in the barracks; and I am assuming that they do; I would have shown up at their barracks room(s) and escorted them to PT. There is no excuse for missing PT. They knew that they were supposed to report for PT. If they were out partying the night before then it's their own fault and that's not an excuse. 4856E's for both soldiers. Report and sign in with first line every hour during duty day and with Cq after hours starting at 0400 and ending at 2400 for a indeterminate amount of time; say two weeks. 1000 word essay handwritten in pen on importance of reporting for duty on time. Just a few ideas that I thought of.

Response by SGT Jason Mouret made Oct 19 at 2016 3:54 PM

SGT Jason Mouret — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 15:54:17 -0400

One I think you are going to make a fine NCO. Asking questions like this will definitely give you the knowledge to become a great leader. Second, I think you should sit down with your supervisor and ask advice. I say this because he should already know what has been going on. If he doesn't then he's not doing his job. You are not asking him to correct them but how would he have handled this situation if it were him. Squad leaders and Plotton Sgts should have an opinion door policy on consoling a young NCO, and be willing to give a little guidance. Good luck and don't let things like this stop you from becoming a great NCO.

Response by PFC Patrick States made Oct 19 at 2016 6:45 PM

PFC Patrick States — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 18:45:05 -0400

I think that an Article 15 is a bit much here. I think that counseling statements are more in order, along with some extra duty. Also, he signs in 4 hours late so make sure that he loses the whole days leave. There is NO excuse for missing PT. I can't tell you how many times I did PT while hung over or not yet hung over. My question is who thinks that it's OK to text that they weren't coming in? The whole thought process behind that just blows me away. It should be made abundantly clear that sending a text message is the same as no message at all.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2016 3:25 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 03:25:18 -0400

I'm going to have to agree with Master Guns, I'm sure you could find a couple NCOs who would gladly escort these two to PT, helping them wake up along the way with some physically constructive stops. Why is it that they can just tell their NCOs they aren't coming to PT? Since when is that an option? Ultimately this situation seems like it would end in paperwork but it doesn't seem like something a lengthy PT session couldn't correct.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Oct 20 at 2016 4:13 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:13:38 -0400

I was in Baumholder Germany in 1974, we were given a 3 day weekend, a few NCO's went to the NCO Club (I know, younger soldiers will not know what that is), drank until 3AM, went to bed (This was Sunday)..At 5AM, we hear Alert, Alert, and we are all going WTF? The Company gave us a 3 day weekend, The BN CDR wanted to have a BN run. We woke up, got into PT's went out and ran..I was the guidon bearer..We finished the run, A SSG that was with us, fell out of the run..The CO had a formation of all the soldiers who fell out, and he told them that they were not fit! The SSG said, Sir, that's a lie..He received an Art 15 for calling the CMDR a liar in front of the troops.. You miss my formation, you pay, either the 1SG punishes you, or the Commander. 1SG will hurt your feelings, Commander will kill your career

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Oct 21 at 2016 1:18 PM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Fri, 21 Oct 2016 13:18:34 -0400

talk to them, then inform them that there are many shit-details that need performing for the next <fill-in-the-time-period>

Response by MSG Louis Alexander made Mar 10 at 2018 2:45 AM

MSG Louis Alexander — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 02:45:57 -0500

As an old school soldier, and not to sound as if I’m either a sadist or bully, I would keep in mind their career potential and from there I’d decide the need for punishment. First; I’d roust them out of bed at o530 hours, have them in MOP 4 with full field gear and meet me in the company street. From there we’d go on a little hike within limitations of wearing MOP gear. Two hours out I’d give them a five-minute break then have them trek back to the barracks. Once there I’d issue them MRI’s for breakfast, have them MOP a second time without field gear and run them ¼ mile. After they’ve puked in their masks to eye level, I’d allow them enough time to clean up, and trek them back to the company area where they can take a ten-minute shower, change into PT shorts and tee shirt and report to me on the company street. Upon reporting back to me, I’d put them through gorilla PT drills every fifteen minutes for the next two hours. After going through this, I’d release them for duty. I’d coordinate with the C.O. and attempt to persuade him to turn a blind eye from UCMJ Article 15 in the hopes the two learned a valuable lesson and to help save their careers. Good soldiers make mistakes and it’s the NCO who must mold these yahoos into mean green fighting machines. It worked in the past so it should continue to work in the future. This bull shit of a paperwork Army is just that – Bullshit! We want killing machines when the shit hits the fan, we want them to fight like they’re the third monkey on the ramp to Noah’s ark…and Brother it’s startin to rain. We don’t need a bunch of snowflake pansies whining about a broken finger nail. So, call me mean, sadist or bully the one thing you can’t call me is someone who doesn’t want to win when winners are needed.

Response by MSG Louis Alexander made Mar 10 at 2018 3:05 AM

MSG Louis Alexander — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 03:05:05 -0500

If NCO's are given the power to punish within limitations like in the past, we wouldn't be having problems like this. Now with the politically correct and liberal crowd penetrating our military especially in Field Grade levels, a more sensitive military is needed to accommodate their ambitions for progression. My concern has and will always be to train our soldiers to the highest levels of proficiency, and in time of war, bring back as many as I possibly can. Call it rude or crude, the fact remains, a disciplined well-trained Army is an effective Army and wars are not won by paper. People are going to make mistakes, correct the mistakes and you'll be surprised how loyal and fearful your soldiers will be when in need.

Response by SSG Will Phillips made Mar 10 at 2018 3:29 AM

SSG Will Phillips — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 03:29:08 -0500

If they were in my squad, I would confront them with my platoon Sgt. If they fessed up, 30 days extra duty and they are more or less forgiven. If they outright lie to me, AR-15 would be my recommendation.

Response by SGT Mark Halmrast made Mar 10 at 2018 7:57 AM

SGT Mark Halmrast — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 07:57:47 -0500

1. Enhanced PT
2. Stand guard. Soldier fills sandbags and creates a waist high barricade (one sandbag at a time) at the end of the barracks hallway. Full gear. Stands guard while not engaged in PT or platoon activities.
3. Full room & layout inspection. Over the next weekend. Every 4 hours until it is perfect, which will be 2100 Sunday.
4. Did I say enhand PT? Includes weekend...multiple revolutions.
5. His buddy? Right there with him.

If attitude not squared away after that, Article 15, then the real stuff happens.

Response by SPC David Willis made Mar 10 at 2018 8:22 AM

SPC David Willis — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:22:19 -0500

Make them sweat so hard they get drunk again.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2018 8:48 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 08:48:35 -0500

First, charge them both leave. Second, give them crappy jobs to do- preferably something that last to the rest of the week. One big job just gives them time to screw around. Need a list of smaller jobs. Counseling- get it all on paper in case they have the impression they can do this in the future. Then a lot of mentoring. Give them more responsibilities.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 10 at 2018 10:00 AM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:00:37 -0500

If I was the NCO, I'd call in soldier 1 and ask him to give me a "real good" explanation of why he was UA. If his explanation held up, I'd explain to him that in the future I or the staff duty better get a contact as soon as humanly possible BEFORE he is late. To help him remember this I'd have the admin chief charge him an extra day of leave. If he objected, I wouldn't discuss it any further, I'd just run him UA. Then I'd address the PT UA.

I don't care if they were out on the town drinking, or saving kittens from a hole in the ground. They make training, ON TIME. I might make an exception if they were saving orphans from a burning building, IF and only if, they were on their way in , and would have been on time, when they saw the orphanage burning. I'd give them a choice:

_report in utes and boots in full ALICE next Friday and Saturday at 2100 hours for a 15 mile force march remedial PT session., which I would make with them, each night. I will add one mile for every minute they are late, up to ten minutes, then I just run them late, plus we still do the 25 miler. Or
_they can take the Article 15. If they choose the article 15, they've already made up their minds. They don't want to be in the Army and I would start building the case to help them on their way.

Then I would address the false official statement. Right after the force march, I'd want to know why their dirt was in my fighting hole, and I'd order them to remove it to a different location, or they could choose article 15 for false official statement.

Clearly there is a disconnect in this unit, if two soldiers think that any unit training function is optional. Therefore I would violate the praise in public and reprimand in private. Whatever punishment they chose, would be made very public.

Heads up, anytime you are contemplating an article 15, the very first thing you do is run it by the legal clerk or admin chief to make damn sure it meets all the elements of the charge. the second thing you do is make sure that the command is willing to run it BEFORE you offer the soldiers the choice. As a leader you are dead in the water if you are caught in a bluff.

Response by SGT Matthew Sesar made Mar 10 at 2018 10:07 AM

SGT Matthew Sesar — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:07:43 -0500

I would say smoke the legs for about 6 hours or so. Make it so they can’t sit down for about three days. No paperwork.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 10 at 2018 10:20 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:20:50 -0500

1. Not coming to formation is not a flippin personal action. Give the them choice of corrective action or UCMJ. 1st Action- restriction to billets for both. 2nd Since they don't like formations have several over the weekend just for them- falling out in various uniforms. 3rd. Lets just throw in a room GI party with an inspection or two also on the weekends.

Response by SGT Aric Lier made Mar 10 at 2018 10:37 AM

SGT Aric Lier — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:37:12 -0500

squad leader should be on top of their whereabouts and be able to report. if he doesn't have the respect then the Plt. Sgt needs step up his game too. a new pv1 may not know and needs instruction and reinforcement. whereas E-4 mafia just doesn't care and needs a reminder that will leave not only hisself with a lasting impression, but the rest of the company will learn from it as well. both NCO's should give verbal counseling together and deliver their punishment as a team.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 10 at 2018 10:52 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 10 Mar 2018 10:52:12 -0500

I would not care, nor use the Snapchat for any purpose. I would challenge the Soldiers regarding their reason, and direct that they show at first formation. Had they not I would write them up and issue corrective training in concert with command guidance, if this was tgeir first instance. If it was a repeat offense, or continued misconduct I would look to a more stringent discipline. Thank you for your service.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 12 at 2018 12:03 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 12:03:14 -0400

Give him a direct order to be at PT, preferably face to face. Let him roll the dice and take his chances with UCMJ from there. "Tired" is not a legitimate alibi. If you want to give him a break, tell him to call DNCO and request a leave extension. If it's denied he's back at square one.