Posted on Jul 3, 2014
What would you replace M9 with? The Army is looking at .357, .40, and .45ACP
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Which of the rounds that the Army is looking at replacing the M9 with would you pick? .357 Sig, .40 S&W and .45 ACP Or would you pick something else? Why?
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/07/03/army-wants-harder-hitting-pistol/
Equipment
Army
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 65
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The only comment I can make is: when I was in Iraq we had about x100 M1911 pistols on our books - all the guys wanted them but they needed updating and repairs. I spent a couple weeks putting together all the information about cost and time. When I was called in to my Battalion Commander to explain the cost and he said one thing "Can you tell me how many people in the War on Terror have been killed with a sidearm?" I shrugged my shoulders - he said "None" I thanked him for his time, packed up my papers and left.
From a logistical standpoint it is not just the weapon itself, it is the magazines and holsters - all the other stuff that goes into a Program of Record.
I love the Sig P226, Glock 19 and the M1911. The Marine Corp has a great history with the .45 ACP and the M1911
From a logistical standpoint it is not just the weapon itself, it is the magazines and holsters - all the other stuff that goes into a Program of Record.
I love the Sig P226, Glock 19 and the M1911. The Marine Corp has a great history with the .45 ACP and the M1911
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To answer the question directly, I own a .40 S&W (FNX-40). I get the benefit of high magazine capacity and slightly better stopping power than a 9mm. I've seen a lot more special purpose ammunition that comes in .45 but not 9mm, but lets be honest, unless you're in special operations don't bother engaging with a sidearm as a primary weapon.
I agree with the statements that a 9mm vs a .45 platform is a marginal gain when you take into account cost, weight, and the fact that most soldiers I've seen are horrible with a sidearm on the range. Add to that the stress of a real world situation with reduced capacity and higher recoil and that spells out a disaster. The M9 despite some of it's flaws has served us well. In the grand scheme of the army I'd rather see money spent on better training, development, and retention of soldiers.
Weapons are the tools of our trade, but at the end of the day it is what lies between our ears that makes us effective and dangerous adversaries.
I agree with the statements that a 9mm vs a .45 platform is a marginal gain when you take into account cost, weight, and the fact that most soldiers I've seen are horrible with a sidearm on the range. Add to that the stress of a real world situation with reduced capacity and higher recoil and that spells out a disaster. The M9 despite some of it's flaws has served us well. In the grand scheme of the army I'd rather see money spent on better training, development, and retention of soldiers.
Weapons are the tools of our trade, but at the end of the day it is what lies between our ears that makes us effective and dangerous adversaries.
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SPC Keelan Southerland
Great points Joseph. Since I retired I got to train more with my pistols and I have gotten better. I was no slouch before, but age and maturity have made me better.
If the military went to a modified 3 gun competition style of precombat shooting event, if the members would be better prepared. Most of the training is canned like spam and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Combat Arms has different needs than Doctors in the Reserves and the training should reflect that.
The FNX is a nice weapon.
I purchased a Walther PPQ in 9mm and while it is outstanding carry pistol I could see soldiers screwing it up and saying "Hey dude! Check this out, I just did a trigger job and made it better!" If I could have carried the PPQ overseas I would have in a heartbeat. The trigger has 1/10th of an inch for trigger reset and it measures about 5 lbs in trigger weight. The accuracy was outstanding, but one hit the pistol has is plastic sights.
If the military went to a modified 3 gun competition style of precombat shooting event, if the members would be better prepared. Most of the training is canned like spam and what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Combat Arms has different needs than Doctors in the Reserves and the training should reflect that.
The FNX is a nice weapon.
I purchased a Walther PPQ in 9mm and while it is outstanding carry pistol I could see soldiers screwing it up and saying "Hey dude! Check this out, I just did a trigger job and made it better!" If I could have carried the PPQ overseas I would have in a heartbeat. The trigger has 1/10th of an inch for trigger reset and it measures about 5 lbs in trigger weight. The accuracy was outstanding, but one hit the pistol has is plastic sights.
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http://kitup.military.com/2014/07/sof-prefers-9mm-45-caliber.html
This is why I like a 9mm. There are more factors than the "stopping power" augment at play.
This is why I like a 9mm. There are more factors than the "stopping power" augment at play.
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SPC Sean Corinth
I carry an XDm .40 but I like the capacity of the 9 over the .45 or even the .40. Being able to carry much more ammo is very appealing
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Return to the M1911A1 - the only sidearm the military ever needed. It was designed to serve a purpose and it served that purpose very well. The M9 was a mistake that never should have happened.
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The Kimber Warrior SOC - Full sized, tactical wedge night sights, tan/green Kimpro II finish, ambi safety, and removable Crimson Trace laser that mounts to the rail.
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I will add to the Glock vs. Sig discussion. The Glock has 3 to major parts, this keeps its operation simple, the Glock can be underwater, muddy, etc and still fire. When it comes to the Sig, there are numerous springs and moving parts in that gun, Sig recommends replacing those (at the factory) every so often. The Glock, you shoot, you clean, your done.
When I was a firearms instructor for Law Enforcement in KY the Louisville and Jefferson County Police Departments merged, Louisville had Glocks, County had Sigs. The first firearms range with combined guns resulted in many Sigs being sent to the Company for maintenance and spring replacement, also a lot of jams and stove pipes, The Glocks shoot true and everytime the trigger was pulled.
My 2 cents
When I was a firearms instructor for Law Enforcement in KY the Louisville and Jefferson County Police Departments merged, Louisville had Glocks, County had Sigs. The first firearms range with combined guns resulted in many Sigs being sent to the Company for maintenance and spring replacement, also a lot of jams and stove pipes, The Glocks shoot true and everytime the trigger was pulled.
My 2 cents
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My vote is for the Springfield XD (2nd generation with a slide safety). They're accurate, VERY reliable, less expensive than the Beretta M9, have a high magazine capacity, and are made in a multitude of chamberings. Furthermore, they can take a beating. I've heard of torture tests on the XD (1st generation) that surpassed that of Glock, and the weapon still functioned.
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SFC Jerry Humphries
I have an XD 9 compact and a full size XD 45 with a thumb safety. Both are great guns.
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SFC (Join to see)
They are indeed. I have a 1st Gen XD 9 with a 5'' barrel, and as much as I hate to admit it, I like it better than the H&K USP that I fired a few months ago. The ergonomics on the XD are wonderful.
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It appears according to the RFP put out by the Army, only one weapon currently produced meets the criteria.
http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate
http://bearingarms.com/army-wants-new-handgun-way-can-now/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate
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SPC Bill Fessler
24 Yrs Law Enforcement retired as a Chief of Police; Recommend GLOCK 21 .45 AUTO; Remarkable for its accuracy and light recoil, the GLOCK 21 Gen4 delivers the legendary stopping power of the .45 AUTO round with 10/13 round magazine capacity. The Modular Back Strap design on the G21 Gen4 lets you instantly customize its grip to adapt to an individual shooter's hand size. The surface of the frame employs the new scientifically designed, real-world-tested, Gen4 rough textured technology. Internally, the new GLOCK dual recoil spring assembly substantially increases the life of the system. A reversible enlarged magazine catch, changeable in seconds, accommodates left or right-handed operators. The Gen4 system is the perfect complement to this iconic .45 caliber cartridge.
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LTC Paul Labrador
From the way I understand it, Sig won by a hair, but the total cost of the weapons package (to include spare parts) was more expensive than Barretta's. Since cost is always a factor, they went with the M9 for general use, but bought enough M11s for special issue.
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LTC Paul Labrador
After reading the article, I have to wonder if they were being sponsored by the manufacturer. Plastic frame is very durable and has proven itself in front-line combat service for decades. Plus with plastic frame, you don't have to worry about corrosion like you do with full metal frames. What is telling is when you look at units that are allowed to make a choice of sidearm, you'll more often than not, find a Glock on their hip.
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Perhaps I'm missing something here; but wasn't the driving force to change from the M1911 45 cal to the M9 9mm in order to align ourselves with NATO ammunition standards to allow resupply within all NATO nations? Not to try to stir up any conspiracy theories or anything, but could this mean that we're beginning to separate ourselves from NATO (although we will, I'm sure, continue to foot 90% of the monetary bill for NATO). Just a thought....
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LTC Paul Labrador
MAJ Woods, the average person can't SEE a man-sized target out past 300m without magnified optics, so shooting out to 600m really isn't in the cards. Out to 300m, 5.56mm does the job. But yeah, if you NEED to shoot out past that, go get a .30 cal.
It's interesting to speculate where we would be now had we actually not been so hardheadedly conservative and adopted the .280 that was the original caliber of the FN FAL.
It's interesting to speculate where we would be now had we actually not been so hardheadedly conservative and adopted the .280 that was the original caliber of the FN FAL.
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SFC James Barnes
I disagree sir you can see a human size target out past 300m and can shoot them with iron sights. it what squad designated marksmen are trained to do. The problem is we are not like the marine corp who train their soldiers to actually shoot at that range.
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MAJ Jim Woods
LTC Labrador..... your point is well taken in an actual combat environment. But.... on the wide open Qualification Ranges at Ft. Dix in 1966 I was one of those designated Auto Rifle guys in a Infantry Squad and was able to use iron sights (optics were not an option back then) on side by side silhouettes at 800 meters and consistently hit both targets at that range with 2-3 shot bursts.
There were a number of us (at least 8) in our Infantry AIT Company that were able to do that. I was probably the luckiest of the 8. At least thats what my DI kept telling me..... I never did like that guy....LOL.
There were a number of us (at least 8) in our Infantry AIT Company that were able to do that. I was probably the luckiest of the 8. At least thats what my DI kept telling me..... I never did like that guy....LOL.
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LTC Paul Labrador
SSG Barnes, at 300m a man sized target is the size of your front sight post. Average soldier (even Marine) in a combat environment 9(ie when targets are moving and shooting back) is not going to be as successful at engaging at that range. That is WHY we have a designated marksman position who is specifically trained to shoot at those distances and farther.
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I used to believe in switching to a .45 - then I spent a tour carrying 30 rnds of 9mm ammo. .45's are twice as heavy. I'll stick with the 9mm and have extra rounds vs the heavier .45s. And I say this as someone who uses a .45 for home defense. I will always prefer to shoot more vs shoot bigger.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Hollowpoints work great in tissue, but not so great against hard targets. Also depending on the gun and ammo mix, JHPs can have feeding issues.
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SPC Keelan Southerland
That is true, but we have rifles and heavy weapons systems to remedy hard cover. I am sure you are not going to tell me .45 is going to penetrate hard targets. With regard to the ammo and feeding issues, there have been great leaps and bounds made since ball ammo was designed. Additionally, there are several companies who have made pistols that are reliable with many different kinds of HP ammo.
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