Posted on Oct 24, 2015
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
8.02K
90
29
6
6
0
7207af0a
Pilots in deadly Black Hawk crash that killed all 11 service members aboard disobeyed direct orders not to fly into worsening weather off Florida coast, report finds

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3286670/Pilots-deadly-Black-Hawk-crash-disobeyed-orders.html#ixzz3pSTbJO5a
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Posted in these groups: D2d98f7c OrdersLeadership abstract 007 Leadership
Avatar feed
See Results
Responses: 12
SFC Mark Merino
15
15
0
Edited 9 y ago
7d68970ad0fe
I smell BS. I spent almost a career in aviation and short of combat, no pilot has the marbles to disobey a direct order when it has anything to do with environmentals. They don't just lose their wings making that call. They face jail time. This story smells like the Marine who 'accidentally' shot a fellow gate guard in the chest. You can't get me to believe that one either. Never. Someone is covering their ass, lying, or so full of crap that they could also be running for president. Play me the tape from flight ops proving they acknowledged the order. When millions of dollars get destroyed and there is a loss of life (Class A aviation incident) expect a lot of busses to start getting thrown around, cause someone is going to be found under one.
(15)
Comment
(0)
SFC Mark Merino
SFC Mark Merino
9 y
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS - I'll hold out on commenting until more information comes out. I'm just saying I don't believe we have all the facts, just the facts that have been presented.
(3)
Reply
(0)
SGT William Howell
SGT William Howell
9 y
SFC Mark Merino You also got to look at the source of this story. Not a lot of faith in tabloids.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
9 y
SFC Mark Merino - I have to agree, One place it says they proceeded to accomplish the mission and another place the M'G said they were to abort because of bad weather. Now, where they going or coming? if they were on their way home and got socked-in, that's a different story. I had an O-6 tell a O-4 to fly through some thunder storms. OK, if you want to buy this airplane sir. Go around then. ANYBODY can challenge a direct order if they fell it is unlawful. You can fight it out on the ground. As a Flight Engineer--- not a bucket seat engineer, I have NEVER had a pilot say I HAD to fly this airplane. I have told pilots that the airplane was not capable of flying because I put it on a red cross. I have 8500 hours to back it up. I HATE when pilots kill enlisted men. I told more than one of them they should be fighter pilots --that way they can only kill themselves. Nuff said.
(1)
Reply
(0)
PFC Thomas Bersch
PFC Thomas Bersch
9 y
I also have to agree that we do not have all the facts and it is highly unlikely we will get all the facts. How do we know that the others heard the order and then let the pilot disobey the order. We all know Marines are gung-ho for anything but they would never let someone disobey a direct order. This reminds of the movie "Rules of Engagement" and yes the circumstances were different but the ending was the same; a senior official is covering their behind.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Daniel Attilio
2
2
0
Unfortunately this kills many civilian pilots as well. I have my PPL and you are taught not to wager your skills against mother nature or beyond your abilities as it will get you killed and worse, possibly get someone else killed.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
SPC Christopher Perrien
2
2
0
Edited 9 y ago
I have my doubts the pilot disobeyed a direct order. Given the experience on board, I gather all of them felt it was safe to at least try. The article is fuzzy and says something about aborting the mission in flight. I can only assume the pilot became disoriented and flew into the ocean(can happen to the best pilots)( the sky and the ocean do that grey/blue thing,add night, add fog , ow), and possibly an instrumental or mechanical issue also.

The disobeyed orders thing, if true, sound more like somebodys doing CYA, for being right or wrong
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Avatar feed
What would you have done to prevent this tragedy given the senior pilot was disobeying a direct order?
See Results
MAJ Ken Landgren
2
2
0
In theory security trumps rank.
(2)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
MAJ Matthew Arnold
2
2
0
An investigation is much like "Monday morning quarterbacking". Without aircrew member survivors no one knows the details of what happened. It is a sad loss of life, experience, and talent.
(2)
Comment
(0)
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
9 y
As in LE, one can only reconstruct from pieces what may have actually occurred. Without the audio recordings of actual communications (the advantage of having the 24/7, 9-1-1 recorded call system) on a conjectured timeline of critical events can be pieced together. As a pilot, however, I know flying below minimums (scud running) is a huge but all too common lapse in judgment and an overestimation of one's abilities.
(1)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
9 y
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS - I agree. To many accidents blame pilot error. Got to tell this joke. A Japanese airline landed short of the runway and into SF bay. it landed on a bed of oysters so, when the passengers got out they were in a foot of water. Being this was a Japanese Airlines they was an internation accident review board. One one of the members had to make a quick trip to the rest room and when he got back everybody was gone. He asked the chairman what happened and he said, Well, we asked Capt Aso what happened and he said: Capt Aso F*** up! Investigation over!! If Nixion had said that instead of lying, he would still be president.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Capt Seid Waddell
2
2
0
Edited 9 y ago
There is not much a soldier can do in this situation when the pilot in command screws up.
(2)
Comment
(0)
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
9 y
So true. I hate 'paying' for the mistakes of others...but I hate it when others have had to pay for my mistakes--and that has been way too many times, I am afraid to say.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Capt Seid Waddell
Capt Seid Waddell
9 y
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS, agreed. Short rounds, friendly fire, danger close, pilot error, equipment failure, etc. can all have tragic consequences to military personnel. It is the luck of the draw in many cases who will live and who will die.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht
9 y
Capt Seid Waddell - Kinda happens outside too, bad roads. unqualified truck drivers, weak bridges, etc.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Capt Seid Waddell
Capt Seid Waddell
9 y
MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht, exactly, but in the military we deal with more lethal equipment as a matter of course.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CW4 William Van Almsick
1
1
0
Edited 9 y ago
The below processes might have a different name now but the process is pretty much the same as when I was in.

There are only 2 reports that you should take interest in, the Safety Investigation report, which tries to find out the cause of the accident and how to prevent further incidents, and the collateral investigation which assigns blame and punishment. Those are the only 2 sources I would take anything away from.

Next, as mentioned above, there is the Air Mission Briefing and Risk Analysis. What were the parameters set forth in the Air Mission Briefing (AMB) that is agreed upon by all participants (aviation and supported units). This was a multi-ship mission so there had to be an Air Mission Commander (AMC) assigned. It could have been any of the pilots (pilot-in-Command or co-pilot) in either of the aircraft. The AMC has control over the air operations. The AMC has the authority to shut down operations if any of the Air Mission Briefing or the Air Crew Briefing parameters are in danger of being violated. So, who gave the Air Crew Briefing and who was the AMC? Also, the 2 Pilot-in-Commands can make an abort mission call. I have done it many times in my career.

Now for the other aircrew members. As a Pilot-in-Command, I always took the thoughts and recommendations of my other crew members seriously. If they felt uneasy about an aspect of the mission, then chances were that I would cancel the mission. They always knew that they had a voice in the decision making process.

I cannot believe that a CW4 would blatantly disregard mission parameters and I cannot believe that a CW4 would allow himself to be "Bullied" or "ordered from above" to violate the mission parameters. Every soldier wants to accomplish the mission. But, those that have been put in charge have also been trained and given the resources to conduct operations while maintaining the safety of all personnel involved in that mission.

This article does not pass the smell test.
(1)
Comment
(0)
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
9 y
Excellent background. Are the two reports you mentioned available to the public?
(0)
Reply
(0)
CW4 William Van Almsick
CW4 William Van Almsick
9 y
Good question. Neither are published for all eyes, that I know of. For the Safety Investigation Report, The FOIA would get you a copy. From the USACRC website:

The U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center (USACRC) is the repository and release authority for Army safety accident reports prepared in accordance with Department of the Army Pamphlet 385-40, Army Accident Investigation and Reporting, and Army Regulation 385-10, the Army Safety Program. The USACRC Commander has been delegated authority to act as the Initial Denial Authority (IDA) on requests for information from Army safety accident reports.
Records will be made available consistent with applicable laws and regulations. Information will be withheld from the public only if authorized by 5 U.S.C. Section 552 (Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), 5 U.S.C. Section 552a (Privacy Act), or other statutory or regulatory authority.
FOIA requests to the U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center (USACRC) may be submitted in writing, by fax, e-mail or electronic form. Please clearly mark the mailing envelope, fax, or email “Freedom of Information Act Request.” You may contact the USACRC FOIA office at the following address, phone number, or email address:

U.S. Army Combat Readiness Center
ATTN: CSSC-SS (FOIA)
4905 5th Avenue
Fort Rucker, AL 36362-5363
[login to see]
[login to see] Facsimile
Email: [login to see]
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 Glenn Boucher
1
1
0
Something doesn't seem right with this "blaming the over confident pilot" thing. I have known many Aviators and Air Crew during my service in the Navy and none of them would knowingly risk endangering themselves, their crew, or passengers. I'm thinking this is a case of blame the dead pilots and air crew because they can't defend themselves. I would also be willing to bet that there is some type of mission audio recording that is going to make someone look extremely bad.
(1)
Comment
(0)
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
9 y
I would think that flight logs and recordings, as well as reported weather conditions pre and post accident would have been all examined extensively to re-create the 'chain of events' leading up to this tragic disaster.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CW3 Kevin Storm
1
1
0
There is an old saying I heard years ago. If everyone dies its the pilots fault. If the pilot lives its the aircrafts fault. Seems this mantra is holding true, no one can challenge this to see if it is true.
(1)
Comment
(0)
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
CPO Andy Carrillo, MS
9 y
And weather shows no mercy any more than the sea. Seems like this tragic accident was a 'perfect storm' of several factors.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT James Hastings
1
1
0
Following the chain of command is drilled into us but a Korean Airline crashed years ago, killing all aboard because the senior pilot was allowed to keep flying lower when the copilot and navigator should have relieved him of command and saved all their lives. Being reprimanded for disobedience is tough but death is forever!
(1)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close