What would you have done to prevent this tragedy given the senior pilot was disobeying a direct order?

2015-10-24T01:25:46-04:00

Pilots in deadly Black Hawk crash that killed all 11 service members aboard disobeyed direct orders not to fly into worsening weather off Florida coast, report finds

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3286670/Pilots-deadly-Black-Hawk-crash-disobeyed-orders.html#ixzz3pSTbJO5a
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Pilots in deadly Black Hawk crash disobeyed orders

An investigation into the March crash of a seasoned, Louisiana-based National Guard crew has found that the pilots were not authorized to fly in such bad weather.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Oct 24 at 2015 1:29 AM

2015-10-24T01:29:24-04:00

CPO Jon Campbell Chief, that's the Daily Mail. Snowden's American-hating buddy Greenwhatever works for them. It's a hit rag, trash news. Even this story has nothing directly attributable to official sources. It's all 'investigation says'. Who? Who investigated and said? 'Reported by the Irish Times'. Sure. The Irish Times.

No, Chief, I'm not saying this did or didn't happen, but until I see it from a credible source....meh. The Daily Mail is little more than the Duffle Blog trying to be serious and convince you of their veracity.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 24 at 2015 1:57 AM

2015-10-24T01:57:13-04:00

I smell BS. I spent almost a career in aviation and short of combat, no pilot has the marbles to disobey a direct order when it has anything to do with environmentals. They don't just lose their wings making that call. They face jail time. This story smells like the Marine who 'accidentally' shot a fellow gate guard in the chest. You can't get me to believe that one either. Never. Someone is covering their ass, lying, or so full of crap that they could also be running for president. Play me the tape from flight ops proving they acknowledged the order. When millions of dollars get destroyed and there is a loss of life (Class A aviation incident) expect a lot of busses to start getting thrown around, cause someone is going to be found under one.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Oct 24 at 2015 2:11 AM

2015-10-24T02:11:27-04:00

There is not much a soldier can do in this situation when the pilot in command screws up.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Oct 24 at 2015 2:15 AM

2015-10-24T02:15:12-04:00

An investigation is much like "Monday morning quarterbacking". Without aircrew member survivors no one knows the details of what happened. It is a sad loss of life, experience, and talent.

Response by SPC Joseph F Dolloff made Oct 24 at 2015 7:37 AM

2015-10-24T07:37:05-04:00

After review, I would have to agree with SFC Merino. CWO Griffin and CWO Strother, seem to have been found, under the wheels of the big, green military bus. The Maj General Joseph L. Osterman, said the decided to abort the mission. At what point was that decision made? As stated before, I would love to hear the audio records, and see who's full of crap. I'm sure that there's a Private, polishing up somebody's 3 stars, to keep the tarnish off of them, from this!

Response by SGT James Hastings made Oct 25 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-10-25T15:11:47-04:00

Following the chain of command is drilled into us but a Korean Airline crashed years ago, killing all aboard because the senior pilot was allowed to keep flying lower when the copilot and navigator should have relieved him of command and saved all their lives. Being reprimanded for disobedience is tough but death is forever!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Oct 25 at 2015 5:21 PM

2015-10-25T17:21:58-04:00

In theory security trumps rank.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Oct 26 at 2015 11:23 AM

2015-10-26T11:23:01-04:00

There is an old saying I heard years ago. If everyone dies its the pilots fault. If the pilot lives its the aircrafts fault. Seems this mantra is holding true, no one can challenge this to see if it is true.

Response by SPC Christopher Perrien made Oct 26 at 2015 12:42 PM

2015-10-26T12:42:44-04:00

I have my doubts the pilot disobeyed a direct order. Given the experience on board, I gather all of them felt it was safe to at least try. The article is fuzzy and says something about aborting the mission in flight. I can only assume the pilot became disoriented and flew into the ocean(can happen to the best pilots)( the sky and the ocean do that grey/blue thing,add night, add fog , ow), and possibly an instrumental or mechanical issue also.

The disobeyed orders thing, if true, sound more like somebodys doing CYA, for being right or wrong

Response by MSgt Daniel Attilio made Oct 26 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-10-26T13:27:43-04:00

Unfortunately this kills many civilian pilots as well. I have my PPL and you are taught not to wager your skills against mother nature or beyond your abilities as it will get you killed and worse, possibly get someone else killed.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Oct 26 at 2015 4:05 PM

2015-10-26T16:05:59-04:00

Something doesn't seem right with this "blaming the over confident pilot" thing. I have known many Aviators and Air Crew during my service in the Navy and none of them would knowingly risk endangering themselves, their crew, or passengers. I'm thinking this is a case of blame the dead pilots and air crew because they can't defend themselves. I would also be willing to bet that there is some type of mission audio recording that is going to make someone look extremely bad.

Response by CW4 William Van Almsick made Oct 26 at 2015 6:44 PM

2015-10-26T18:44:22-04:00

The below processes might have a different name now but the process is pretty much the same as when I was in.

There are only 2 reports that you should take interest in, the Safety Investigation report, which tries to find out the cause of the accident and how to prevent further incidents, and the collateral investigation which assigns blame and punishment. Those are the only 2 sources I would take anything away from.

Next, as mentioned above, there is the Air Mission Briefing and Risk Analysis. What were the parameters set forth in the Air Mission Briefing (AMB) that is agreed upon by all participants (aviation and supported units). This was a multi-ship mission so there had to be an Air Mission Commander (AMC) assigned. It could have been any of the pilots (pilot-in-Command or co-pilot) in either of the aircraft. The AMC has control over the air operations. The AMC has the authority to shut down operations if any of the Air Mission Briefing or the Air Crew Briefing parameters are in danger of being violated. So, who gave the Air Crew Briefing and who was the AMC? Also, the 2 Pilot-in-Commands can make an abort mission call. I have done it many times in my career.

Now for the other aircrew members. As a Pilot-in-Command, I always took the thoughts and recommendations of my other crew members seriously. If they felt uneasy about an aspect of the mission, then chances were that I would cancel the mission. They always knew that they had a voice in the decision making process.

I cannot believe that a CW4 would blatantly disregard mission parameters and I cannot believe that a CW4 would allow himself to be "Bullied" or "ordered from above" to violate the mission parameters. Every soldier wants to accomplish the mission. But, those that have been put in charge have also been trained and given the resources to conduct operations while maintaining the safety of all personnel involved in that mission.

This article does not pass the smell test.