What was wrong with the old guild systems and apprenticeships? Why did it go away?

Maj John Bell — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 19:10:05 -0500

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 26 at 2016 7:26 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 19:26:28 -0500

It becomes (generally) unsustainable as it switched from a "linear" to a "pyramid" structure.

That is not to say that elements of it don't still exist (the trades still use Apprentice, Journeyman, Master titles), but formal education programs have replaced much of the one-on-one training.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Feb 26 at 2016 7:50 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 19:50:59 -0500

Maj John Bell Once unions weakened, there was no system to operate and formalize apprentice programs. "Upgraders" learned some of a trade, went elsewhere, learned a little more and increased their wages as their skills increased. A few unions hung in with valid training programs, but again as soon as qualified to actually perform journeyman level work, they would rush out of the training cocoon for the journeyman level wages.

The newfound freedom of being able to hire elsewhere led to the demise of the trade unions. Now, unions survive as spokespersons for civil servants and teachers.

Now, a tradesman will quit and vote with his feet to get a better job or one w/ better benefits.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Feb 26 at 2016 8:11 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 20:11:56 -0500

This is a helluva good question. One which has several answers. CSM Charles Hayden offers one good explanation in which he describes the lack of a system to administer apprentice programs inasmuch as trade unions, which served as guilds once did, are failing. Another is the demise of vocational education. I grew up in Maryland which had a magnificent system of trade schools. One near me, Mergenthaler Vocational High School, sticks in my memory. Although I never attended it, I can still remember seeing and hearing about its excellent programs. When I arrived in California, I wondered at the lack of such facilities here and asked about them. I was told that vocational education had been eliminated in the state because it was discriminatory, appealing to minorities to keep them limited in their career options. Don't laugh. I had seen the practice of subjugating minorities at work in Hawaii when I lived there. The descendants of the missionary families established schools for the islanders to train them in useful trades such as chauffeurs and mains to serve their betters.

Interestingly, while living in Colorado, the state legislature considered a law allowing students of law to study at the feet of established attorneys as was the practice in early America and other parts of the world. Of course, the state bar association jumped into the fray and blocked the proposal. One wonders why?

It's a difficult balance, offering children vocational opportunities without limiting their choices based on prejudicial notions. However, it's worth the effort to do better, isn't it. Not everyone needs a college education. There are many fine craftsmen and tradesmen who earn more than college graduates and the lack of candidates to fill these opportunities wounds our society. Common Core is an expression of this misguided notion that all children should have a college education whether they want or qualify for it or not. For example, while most of us subsist quite nicely with a basic education in math (hell, a CPA uses math for little more to add and subtract debits and credits or occasionally uses simple multiplication or division to figure a percentage or discount) Common Core seeks to prepare all students for high forms of math by exposing them to mathematical theory. That's just stupid.

In composing this response I checked to see if Mergenthaler was still in business or if it had been destroyed by the good intentions of some social do gooder. Thankfully it seems to be still there
http://www.mervo.org/ I hope that it continues its fine work and that others will emulate its lead

Mergenthaler Vocational Technical High School

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 26 at 2016 11:58 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Fri, 26 Feb 2016 23:58:09 -0500

There's been a large increase in the Tech Schools which crank out various things like welders, etc. Then the experience and certification levels are next, hence a desire to work at companies where you can progress. That's what my nephew did. There are still some dedicated programs out there like the Shipyards. They typically tie themselves to a community college for subjects surrounding the trades. Olympic College in Bremerton does that. In addition, they host a Wazzu accredited Mechanical Engineering program for the Shipyard as they need so many. With the age demographics hitting them hard right now, PSNS is hiring 2 for every retiree. Quite a heavy demand signal. Starting out at a touch over $12/hr and hitting $24 after 3 years, with benefits, not bad in these times.

Response by PO1 Matthew Murdock made Feb 27 at 2016 7:18 AM

PO1 Matthew Murdock — Sat, 27 Feb 2016 07:18:10 -0500

We had an apprenticeship program at my last job. It was not the best cause they hired a teacher that had no industrial exp., and they people they put in there were stupid. But I guess my point is they still are out there.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Feb 27 at 2016 9:55 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 27 Feb 2016 09:55:49 -0500

Still very much in use in England.