What was different about the military back in your day?

2016-02-29T15:16:45-05:00

I always hear about how this is a new Navy and things have changed a lot. I've only been in for almost four years and I feel like the professionalism and respect for rank has diminished. I look at how Marines treat their Corporals versus the way Sailors treat Third Classes. It's amazing how big of a difference respecting the rank is across the branches. I do understand that a Corporal has more responsibilities than a PO3. I also noticed how terrible leadership is, not all but the majority (from what I've seen). I feel as though the military is good at retaining horrible leadership as the good ones tend to get out. I joined to make this a career but I feel like I can't because of the people in this "new Navy." Don't get me wrong I've met a lot of great people, but I feel like I'm dealing with high school drama all over again. This information is from what I've gathered through my experiences and are not intended on talking down on the Navy, other Sailors or any one in particular. Has it always been this way? What would you change about the military today? Is the system already too broken to fix?

Response by SGT Richard H. made Feb 29 at 2016 3:19 PM

2016-02-29T15:19:21-05:00

I started off in the Marine Corps, and was stationed on a Navy base. My observation in 1983 matched yours today with regard to the difference in the ways that a CPL and a PO3 were treated.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Feb 29 at 2016 3:25 PM

2016-02-29T15:25:41-05:00

Well I started back in 78 got off a bus had a drill call me some names I talked back and got my ass hand to me they can't do that now a days in the army when I retired I see some good changes and see some bad ones. I had a PVT tell me that I could not tell him what to do for I was not in his chain of command I then showed him the change of command the way my old drill showed me that's when I said time to go. I was told that support troops where different then line dogs but to me a soldier is a soldier no matter what his or her MOS is you do what your told and that is it weather you like it or not

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Feb 29 at 2016 3:36 PM

2016-02-29T15:36:32-05:00

#1 I got my butt kicked in a hand to hand bayonet fight with a DI
#2 I was in a Guard Company in the Boston Navy Yard with guys who had been up in the Chosin Reservoir including my CO, XO, & Gunny & these guys were legends in the Marines.
#3 I served under Chesty when he shook up things at Camp Lejeune and Camp Geiger
#4 I had a Plt Sgt who was 20 years older than me and treated me like his son, & I really learned a lot from this guy who had been in China, WWII & Korea..
#5 The Marines really helped for me to return to Boston College after I dropped out three years earlier. They had a good relationship with Boston College back then & not so sure about now.
#6 We learned a lot after the mistakes made in Korea so that never happened again. Chesty had us spend more time in the field and at PFT which helped. So when the Marines landed at Pleiku in 1962..they had it all together this time..

Response by Cpl Bryan Whittaker made Feb 29 at 2016 4:00 PM

2016-02-29T16:00:54-05:00

Donald, I am probably the least qualified here to answer your question, but I will give it a shot and my opinion anyways. I enlisted in the Marines in 1991 and attained the rank of Corporal just shy of a year before my EAS. Since I didn't do 20 and retire, I have not seen the changes from the inside and have only heard. While I was in, either I was very naive or just didn't witness any real disrespect toward higher ranking NCO's or Officers. I think as a Corporal, I had to have a loud verbal discussion with a PFC once, and he was just an obvious failure that somehow made it through the system. I have been out of the Marines over 20 years now and have heard stories about stress cards and other malfeasance. I have been a police officer for 17- years and have had dealings with military personnel in negative circumstances. I was pretty amazed by the actions of the military personnel and even more amazed by the inaction of their command. It seems to me now days it is a societal problem not just the military. I saw it in college while earning my degrees, I see it at work on a daily basis. I do think the military has changed to a "kinder gentler" military, but I also think police work and many other places have changed due to Political Correctness. Hope that helped, Bryan.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Feb 29 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-02-29T16:20:08-05:00

A lot since when I was in. College is required now to make Petty Officer. I believe its a two year degree for E-4 and a four year degree for the higher E-6/7/8/9 stuff. And women are allowed in Submarines now.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 4:37 PM

2016-02-29T16:37:06-05:00

PO3-It's been a few years since I left in the mid 2000s, but I saw some of what you speak of during my tenure as well. I think there's too many factors to list, but ultimately, it probably comes down to the fact that with increased coverage by media, the prominence of "social media", and the general shift towards making everything "political"...people are frankly "afraid" of upholding traditions and discipline. We used to be a "closed" organization with our own culture...a true meritocracy in many ways...an oligarchy in others. In the "good old days", rank was a hard earned badge of experience and trust; Now, it's become an 'expected' quality of someone's job description. That's truly sad because the mission is still the same, as are the challenges, and if we've drifted so far off course, we really and truly believe that isn't the case, I am concerned with where we're heading.

One other thing to keep in mind, however...

The military has become undeniably more 'technical' over the last half century. This means that to some degree, the roles of leadership have shifted from "deckplate" to "digital". When I went to my first ship, we still got message traffic on a clip board. Now, I'm sure the OOD gets it on his iPhone. It really comes down to whether or not one can adapt to changing times...I doubtless could not have. The one great advantage to this shift is that education has a greater place in our military, and extends more opportunity to the service member. In your rate, that's an even greater truth. My advice would be to continue to learn, continue to (as they used to drill into us) collect things from the "good" leadership bag...discard things from the "bad". Time passes quickly, and one day, you might find yourself in a position to truly make direct change in the organization.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 4:54 PM

2016-02-29T16:54:42-05:00

It was the same in 1985 when i first came to now 2016. It just depends on how squared away or High speed the unit is. I was in one army unit where an E-2 had to stand at parade rest to talk to and E-3.

Response by SFC Karen Lassiter made Feb 29 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-02-29T17:52:07-05:00

One word, "Diciplined"

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 29 at 2016 6:20 PM

2016-02-29T18:20:55-05:00

My first experience with the regular Army was in 1998. It seems like Soldiers feared NCOs a lot more back then compared to now.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Feb 29 at 2016 6:26 PM

2016-02-29T18:26:39-05:00

The biggest thing I can tell you is this: if you find your command, your work center and your peers to be toxic, you probably need to think about separating at your EAOS. If it's truly as bad as you say it is, perhaps other career options are in order for you. That's obviously a call only you can make, but I'd strongly consider it were I you. If you don't have a mentor, by all means find one. If you can't find one, ask your CMDCM or SEA to help you find one.

When I was in, and that was from '93 to '13, there was a lot more accountability, much better appreciation for rank, and particularly first class petty officers, who, believe it or not, used to command a lot more authority than they do now. Toward the end of my tenure, some of those guys appeared and acted like overpaid third class petty officers. So the esteem that the mid-grade NCOs used to get in the Navy definitely isn't there like it used to be. Whose fault is that? Institutionally, all of ours.

I personally think this is partially societal, and I think it's also intrinsic to the Navy, inasmuch as the apprenticeship pay grades (E-1 through E-3) are gone through way too quickly for anybody's good, most particularly the guys that are making E-4 with one year time in service. That sets somebody up to make E-5 at two years' TIS and E-6 at five years' TIS. That's not even including people that are turbo-crowed out of A school or meritoriously advanced. You can advance quickly in the Navy, that's true. But you can also fall quickly, and that happens a lot.

I don't think the system is too broke to fix, but I think it, like a lot of things in this country nowadays, needs a long, hard look, and then tough decisions need to be made as regards effecting any lasting solutions. But until the accountability mechanism, which I think is what you're obliquely referring to is fixed, these problems will most likely continue. I hope that helps, and best of luck to you.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 7:21 PM

2016-02-29T19:21:56-05:00

When I was a young airman only the married folks escaped living in the barracks.

I think there were only 2 or 3 young airmen who owned a car. We were pretty much confined to the base and what the base had to offer. That said, life was not all that bad.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Feb 29 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-02-29T19:41:55-05:00

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member - Hazing. Now, before I get going, I KNOW things have changed. I'll let you all decide if for the better... or not. To conclude a promotion, all those of senior rank "pinned" the new rank upon the promoted. Those graduates from jump school got "blood wings." Newbees, usually had some form of a physical beat down during their "welcome aboard." I won't even go into Shell-backing. Depending on the rank, some would simply excuse themselves from such ceremonies and allow the SNCO's or NCO's run the show. It gave the units their own set of bragging rights and sea-stories. It built camaraderie throughout. And it also told the younger leaders to define boundaries and SUPERVISE! Unfortunately, video cameras and smart-phones created magnetic and digital records --whose content offended most civilized Americans. I'm not sure if hazing policies improved things or just pushed such shenanigans underground.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Feb 29 at 2016 9:08 PM

2016-02-29T21:08:24-05:00

We all have one thing in common, We have the U. S. Before our branch of service. People only get away with what you allow them to get away with.
I encourage soldier's to think about what odds going on. One day they will be in charge, I do not want them to be locked in a box.
I do not let them get over, constantly reminding them one day they will be inn charge

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 10:18 PM

2016-02-29T22:18:50-05:00

There are a few things that have changed. However, it's way to easy to look back on the Good Ole Days as if they were perfect. I believe that the Army is going to look back on their moves to limit physical correction as a mistake. I believe it was a mistake to throw morale boosting activities such as gauntlets in with hazing, same with blood stripes, etc. However, such activities got the kabosh because of abuses. I point this out because this shows that poor leadership has been a problem in the military for a longtime. These abuses didnt happen under quality leaders. Both my Grandfathers have stories from their time in the Army and AF in the 50s. Poor leaders and low morale have plauged the services for a long time. Some decades are better than others, and some units than others, bit I believe its a mistake to say , "New Army", "New Navy" etc. Personally I think were more like the 70s right now than anything.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 1 at 2016 5:28 AM

2016-03-01T05:28:16-05:00

Back in my day, regulations and policies were something you followed. They weren't suggestions.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Mar 1 at 2016 6:59 AM

2016-03-01T06:59:40-05:00

As a newly retired Sailor, I think the problem is the Navy's current accelerated promotion policy. In my day it was your time at the previous rank that prepared you for the higher rank. As you gained experience you were given greater responsibility to prepare you for the next rank. That doesn't always occur anymore. Everyone comes in as an E-3 and most advancement to E-4 is either push-button guaranteed or the advancement is 100% (not everyone who can pass the test is ready to be a leader). The advancement rate on my first E-4 exam wan less than 50%. In addition, Early Promote rules which now allow 6 year CPO's places incredible burden on the leaders and Sailors alike.

How does a 25yo connect with a crusty CPO Mess? Or a 22yo E-6 provide mentorship to a 30yo E-5. I fully believe for E-4 to really be considered a leader, it needs to start with being a challenge to attain. In my experience, rates that have a low advancement rate to E-4 tend to have Sailors better ready to be leaders when they attain E-4.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Mar 1 at 2016 7:13 AM

2016-03-01T07:13:19-05:00

I served on board the Enterprise so we had more sailors in a confined area than most other places. Because of this we had a HUGE number of E4's plus I was an ET so most ET's start there first duty as an E4. Most of us where promoted after passing phase 1 of ET school, BUT we also had a 6 year Active Duty enlistment. I think E5's on a carrier back in the 70's was what an E4 on a destroyer was. In the 70's E4's had the respect of rank but most where not section leaders. That was us E5's. Things I have read over the years has made me think the Navy is less formal. They have pushed aside tradition because it wasn't politically correct. The introduction of women on the ship seems to have lessoned the structure. The bonds that sailors had where weakened. We couldn't call home or use the internet (Gore hadn't invented it yet). We didn't have DVD Movies or CD's. We saw a Movie per night from the ships TV Station. If you didn't like that movie, your out of luck. We spent our off time reading or playing board games like backgammon or Hearts and Spades. That kind of thing forced us to interact more with each other and the bonds grew strong. The CPO's where a pain in the A$$ but you did what they told you to do without question. The Captain was the last true King and he demanded the respect be shown up and down the ranks. If the third class gave you instructions or an order and you didn't follow it, your butt ended up at Captains Mast and usually resulted in 15 days restriction. I don't think that's done anymore and that has weakened the rank structure.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Mar 1 at 2016 7:22 AM

2016-03-01T07:22:46-05:00

OH and PO2 Private RallyPoint Member Think long and hard about getting out. Jobs are hard to find and I can truthfully tell you I have regretted getting out of the Navy for most of my life. Hanging on my wall at home and work are Nay pictures. My Shellback certificate along with a picture of the Enterprise are on my wall at home. I have The Enterprise on my shoulder and this as my screen saver. Take a look at that second one. That's Pride and Tradition at its best!! Can you honestly say you wont miss that??

Response by PO1 Clint Miller made Mar 1 at 2016 10:08 AM

2016-03-01T10:08:34-05:00

In the Navy, leadership is learned, would be my observation. I was active duty '73 - '82. Sea duty vs shore duty was the big difference to me, shore having less responsibility and deference to rank. Overall to me being an E6 on shore I was just one of the many, where on a ship we were looked to for training and guidance.

Long time ago but I doubt not much has changed in that respect.

Response by PO2 Mike Vignapiano made Mar 1 at 2016 11:57 AM

2016-03-01T11:57:47-05:00

I went active in 82 and was discharged in 93. For the most part, there was more respect for the uniform and the chain of command. But there was a couple of commands that were cliquish & if you weren't part of the clique, you were demonized. My last two commands were like that, that's why I got out.

Response by TSgt Lars Eilenfeld made Mar 2 at 2016 1:19 PM

2016-03-02T13:19:33-05:00

Gays were not allowed. Running a mile and a half to riding a bicycle then back to running. Using some retarded measurement formula for body fat that lists a bodybuilder as being overweight and a beached whale as fit. If you divulge classified material you go to jail now you get a nomination for the presidency. We used secured forms of communication not twitter, or facebook. Entitlement meant you are entitled to wear a uniform follow orders and serve those who do not know or ever will know you. You didn't expect to be called Hero simply for doing your job.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 3 at 2016 6:39 PM

2016-03-03T18:39:49-05:00

lack of personal accountability on some younger troops as well as some of them feeling as if uniform regs and dress and appearance don't apply to them. I've has one close friend tell me that she gave one of her troops an order to complete a certain task and the response was "ma'm that kind of work is not in my job description". few weeks ago I called out a young troop for walking across the parking lot without his cover on. granted I tried to skirt a few regs during my first year in as well, but my leadership called me out on it immediately and I never let it happen again.

Response by CPO Curtiss Hill made Mar 3 at 2016 6:50 PM

2016-03-03T18:50:28-05:00

PO Jones, there is a huge difference in what leadership was and what it has evolved into. I enlisted in the Navy back in 1988. Back then, your PO3 (first line supervisor) not only had a lot of responsibility, but had authority as well. The authority a PO had increased as the rank increased. Put simply, if you had to go see the Chief, you know you had really screwed up. If you were going to see the XO for disciplinary issues, you could guarantee you were going to lose rank, liberty, and possibly pay. Slowly, the authority of the PO slowly eroded as the officer community (Navy) adopted this "open door" policy. A policy where the junior Sailors are able to take their "concerns" straight to the Division and Department Officers bypassing the LPOs and Chiefs. It has got to the point where, since the POs no longer have authority there is no delineation between the PO ranks and everyone is pals with each other.
The only way that you will see the leadership that is practiced in the USMC is when small unit leadership is reinstituted into the PO ranks. That has to start from the top...the CNO and MCPON. I retired from the Navy back in 2008, one of the reasons I decided that it was time to leave is because it seemed that Navy had adapted a few policies that did not sit well with me.
First: It you cant meet the standard, lower it.
Second: Excuses have become a commodity in Navy leadership. This was a drastic change from the concept of "Results, not excuses" that was instilled in me from the time I was an SR.

Response by PO1 Jason Stone made Jul 6 at 2016 1:38 PM

2016-07-06T13:38:40-04:00

The Air Force was really sctewed up back in the mud 90s when I was in. Murders and attacks on base. The Navy was mire smoothe sailing for me and lots of bonuses and advancement.