What should I put on my event-oriented counseling for this NCO?

2015-03-08T18:07:37-04:00

Thank you for your time, comments, and suggestions everyone.

Response by SFC Donald LeBlanc made Mar 8 at 2015 6:40 PM

2015-03-08T18:40:29-04:00

1LT Wenner, you posted a situation that truly will cause many to "pause". I was Safety NCOIC for many weapons ranges, CQB and also for many years at Army Training Centers. This situation is problematic. On one hand you are faced with the "letter of the law", on the other "duty/training" and also "trust".

While it is the obligation of all Officers to plan and organize the training, it is the Duty and Obligation of NCO's to actually "conduct" that training. For this NCO to not only cut corners, potentially jeopardize the safety of the soldiers on the range, but to basically LIE about his actions really causes a little angst for me.

It may be apparent that the NCO has "lost his focus" because of a personal issue or desire to depart early. No Excuse. Do it right or don't do it at all!!!

You are well within your rights, and duty to counsel this young NCO about his responsibilities and this particular incident.

I want to also point out something you may want to consider. Trust is a very BIG thing for an Officer / NCO relationship. If that trust is broken, it becomes increasingly difficult to function properly as a cohesive team. Having this written into an "event-oriented" counseling statement is absolutely the proper way to handle this. It will demonstrate that you are wanting training that is superior, mentorship that is proper, and honestly/integrity always. Maybe mention that this document will stay with you and not his file to show that you want to keep the trust (even though he violated yours).

Having this "event-oriented" counseling for your personal records may be the best choice versus having this in a "File" in the office. If this person is a "loose cannon" and continually demonstrates that he is willing to sacrifice safety over self service - then by all means do what you need to with the documentation.

I have seen lives lost during my deployments because people "cut corners" or departed from "doctrine" based on their "desire" to finish early. I don't agree with this mentality and never have, ask any of my junior and senior NCO's who worked for me in the past. I didn't cut corners, neither should they. Don't get me wrong - I chastised but did so with compassion and understanding. I wasn't a robot but also wasn't a "pushover".

Tough situation, but I suggest to go ahead with your course of action.

Response by COL Ardis Ferguson made Mar 8 at 2015 9:28 PM

2015-03-08T21:28:14-04:00

Depriving a Soldier of training by not taking the time to coach and mentor firers.
Leading by bad example, that teaches others that this is a method
Lied to me about firing into Soldier's lane, what else and when will he compromise? Compromising integrity in training opens the door to accidents, inconsistent standards, favoritism. This NCO bares watching

Nothing good out of what happened on the range. What is the corrective action associated with the counseling? He coaches firers at the range that are struggling? Counseling him on shortcomings is only part of the counseling process, what is the outcome you want and when do you want to reach a measurable conclusion to the concerns you identified?

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Mar 8 at 2015 11:47 PM

2015-03-08T23:47:19-04:00

A counseling statement for each offense. Then take it up the chain, for action.

Response by Sgt Jay Jones made Mar 9 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-03-09T00:07:54-04:00

1LT Benjamin Wenner, you received excellent advice from SFC Donald LeBlanc and COL A Ferguson. This PSG handed you a \>*# sandwich. He may have wanted to see how much he could get away with, however you showed him you are in fact the Platoon Leader and an Officer. Your desire to not want to ruin his career is admirable. That shows companion on your part, which every leader needs. You also demonstrate good jusgent in knowing when to use it. You also did an excellent job in destroying his lie. If this NCO has anything at all on the ball, he will realize what a good leader you are and that you have high standards and demand the same from him. You may have just motivated an unmotivated NCO to reach for a higher standard. May God be with you.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 12:15 AM

2015-03-09T00:15:29-04:00

1LT. Please forgive me as not being as educated in the methods that might tie your hands on any action on this issue, I would like to offer you a thought on the issue.

First and foremost, never and I do mean never, tell anybody that an issue will not go any further up the chain before even having all the facts. That is mainly more than anything else to protect yourself in dealing with a subordinate and not having all the facts as of yet.

I would suggest that you consider sitting down with the NCO and asking the basics.
Does he know the regulations on range protocol's and safety?
Does he know the regulations on training, documentation and reporting of results?
Does he know the Uniform Code of Military Conduct as it applies to honesty and integrity?
Does he understand the job he is assigned on the range?

I would not ask him for any discussion, only to put into writing the answer to those questions.

Then I would confront him with the facts and ask him what is the correct course of action and what are his responsibilities for self reporting and maintaining unit integrity?

As to your obligations. I would sit with your supervisor and discuss these findings and then which course of action would be the most appropriate.

Do not cover up anything or let this NCO think that they are exempt to the rules or the discipline actions that go with. If it were the leaders I have had as a chief, they would be quite comfortable with my plan of action and even more so knowing that I am being up front with them on this entire issue. As with all things, my decisions and those above me can have an impact on those above so they should at least have the opportunity to have an input.

As to why have him write down all this, it is my experience that after all that, even an idiot would be aware of how badly they have and are screwing up. If not, then they need to have the rude awakening.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 9 at 2015 12:55 AM

2015-03-09T00:55:49-04:00

First, Take a deep breath....

What does your PSG or his PSG think? What does the 1SG think? What does your Commander think; recommend?

I would definitely counsel the NCO in writing. Stick to the facts, and be short sweet and to the point: what happened, what was the issue (what standards were violated), what is expected in the future, and what will happen, if this happens again.

As I am sure you know, the Army is dealing with allegations of widespread lying and integrity issues in the Army, and this was one of the specific circumstances cited... Ultimately who is always responsible?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

"But an officer on duty knows no one. To be partial is to dishonor both himself and the object of his ill-advised favor. What will be thought of him who exacts of his friends that which disgraces him? Look at him who winks at and overlooks offenses in one, which he causes to be punished in another, and contrast him with the inflexible Soldier who does his duty faithfully, notwithstanding it occasionally wars with his private feelings. The conduct of one will be venerated and emulated; the other detested as a satire upon Soldiership and Honor.”
–Brevet Major William Jenkins Worth

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 3:44 AM

2015-03-09T03:44:46-04:00

Sir - There is a difference between making an honest mistake and blatantly lying/doing the wrong thing. This NCO is a staff sergeant he knows the difference between right and wrong.

I will tell you what I would of done if I was your platoon sergeant. I would of suspended him pending relief right on the spot, in front of everyone. I would of talked with the 1SG and CSM about the issue and asked for that NCO to be moved to a different platoon/company, the NCO would arrive with a not so good change of rater NCOER. Depending on the NCO's previous duty performance would determine whether I recommended non-judicial punishment. Written counseling would be complete with all the magic bullets.

All of the above would make my expectations crystal clear to the rest of the NCOs in the platoon.

This is a big problem with a lot of mid level NCOs. Taking short cuts, lying, and not living by the Army Values is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Sir, just a bit of advice from a crusty old NCO, if a NCO lies right to your face you can bet your ass you can't trust them to be there when the shit hits the fan.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 4:07 AM

2015-03-09T04:07:23-04:00

LT, At the end of the day you may have shot yourself in the foot at the beginning by stating that "It will not go higher than me." This NCO should be held accountable for their actions. If he had done the wrong thing and then fessed up to it, then maybe I could see holding this at your level. Lying to your face and smirking about it, unacceptable. This should have been on paper the same day, and recommended for UCMJ for lying to a commissioned officer, as well as a relief for cause NCOER.
It doesn't matter until it matters, and if you only care about it when it matters it's too late.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 5:26 AM

2015-03-09T05:26:32-04:00

I definitely wouldn't write anything positive. As for what TO write I really don't know. But I know said NCO showed poor leadership.

Response by SCPO Joshua I made Mar 9 at 2015 5:50 AM

2015-03-09T05:50:22-04:00

I'm generally hesitant to stop an E-6's career if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. That said, in this case? I would forward it up for NJP given the facts the way you stated them, I wouldn't even bother with a counseling statement.

I would possibly, in your position, have a discussion with your CSM on the issue before putting it on paper as well. Not that you have to, certainly, but it is one of his NCOs as well, and he may have some insight on this particular NCO or suggestions as to how to handle the issue in your particular chain of command. He may also have some creative solutions for your counseling statement if that's the path you go -- and if you go to NJP he's the guy advising the NJP authority (assuming your organization works at least somewhat like we do in the Navy).

As already pointed out, it's one thing to do something wrong -- it's a completely different integrity violation to lie about it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 7:53 AM

2015-03-09T07:53:38-04:00

Definitely put these instances on paper (4856)! If your PSG is going to lie to you about something he committed right in front of you then who knows what he has/will lie about not in front of you. Definitely not the type of PL/PSG relationship you want to effectively run that Platoon.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2015 8:33 AM

2015-03-09T08:33:51-04:00

Sir:

While we all know the feeling of wanting to wrap up a range and go home, professionalism MUST be the deciding factor. These are my concerns:

1.) What happens when this Soldier (who was being assisted) has to deploy and can't shoot accurately?

2.) By assisting the Soldier to qualify, the NCO in question has shown favoritism, unless every Soldier had access to a buddy who would intentionally shoot at their targets.

3.) By lying to a Commissioned Officer, the NCO in question has shown a disregard for his own honor, your rank/dignity, and the UCMJ

Should this ruin his career? I'm not sure; that's a judgment call for you to make, sir. You should look at his overall performance as a NCO within the unit. If this is a one-off, then a good ass-chewing and the written counseling may fit the bill. If this is one more in a series of poor judgment decisions, then it may be time for him to go to the house.

I am curious-- I have functioned as a Range Safety at several ranges, and I have always been able to coach Soldiers to successfully qualify when they started out the day not even hitting the paper. But even those who could not qualify after two tries went home unqualified. Was there some urgency that demanded 100% qualification? Sometimes you have to allow some people to fail in order for them to find the proper motivation to achieve the standard later on.

Response by SSG Christopher Freeman made Mar 10 at 2015 8:12 AM

2015-03-10T08:12:04-04:00

I just had a class from legal on counselings and I will share my notes with the group. In the purpose, all you need to put is this is an event oriented counseling. Never ever put what UCMJ articles they violated. Leave that up to legal. If you get it wrong, that counseling becomes useless. For key points, you have to have the magic bullet. Put that in first, and then build the statement. Include as many details as possible. Use rank last name and first name of everyone involved. Give as close to a specific address as possible. Using HHC parking lot means nothing. Using M-1418 Longstreet in the 82nd CAB HHC parking lot is more descriptive. Get sworn statements from everyone, especially if you are trying to build a packet. Get with your legal team before sworn statements are done to make sure they are done correctly and can be used in UCMJ proceedings. Even include their body language in this section. For plan of action, be specific about your plan of action. recommend SGT Snuffy, Joe for UCMJ. Soldier will write a 500 word report, etc. In session closing, signing only means that their administrative information is correct. They can appeal the counseling and the corrective training if they feel it is humiliating or does not coincide with the incident. For leader responsibilities, include how the plan of action will be accomplished. As a final note, make sure you follow up with the counseling. This should be done after the corrective training is done. If all you recommend is UCMJ, get with legal to see when you should conduct the follow-up. If you recommend corrective training, follow-up when it is completed.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 11 at 2015 7:26 AM

2015-03-11T07:26:48-04:00

CPT Benjamin Wenner, I find myself disagreeing with both the consensus and, to a significant degree, with your handling of your NCO.

First, so you can prejudge my competence one of the same ways you have your platoon sergeants, let me make clear that I have "an inadequate track record" with two Article 15s in my past -- including field-grade one received as a young sergeant after I refused to disagree with a troop commander who got carried away chewing me out and asked if I was not competent to lead my mortar section. Three months later, with a new troop commander and first sergeant standing behind me, the same squadron commander who took my stripes gave them back after asking if I was ready to be an NCO again. Two years later, the Department of the Army was sending me off to college with a 3-year ROTC scholarship. Ten years after being awarded that scholarship, I was notified that I had been passed over for Captain for the final time.

So, young lieutenant with a platoon sergeant who's already been judged unworthy by his current command, let's take a look at your actions as well as your platoon sergeant's actions on an afternoon when you both had agendas other than just testing your soldiers' marksmanship.

First of all, what did you expect your platoon sergeant to say when his (presumably tired and cranky) platoon leader decided to publicly berate him in front of his subordinates? Alternatively, if your purpose wasn't to humiliate him, how do you mesh your comments about witnesses and valid proof with your unambiguous violation of Article 31? (If you don't know what Article 31 says, go look it up. My comment will still be here when you get back)

Next, working down your list of infractions, exactly what training do you think he deprived any soldier of? The kid who couldn't shoot straight? Where was that man's squad leader or section sergeant? Did you have any NCOs tasked with providing corrective training for shooters having problems? Did you have a competent armorer available to verify that the soldier's rifle was not defective (yes, it does happen -- try zeroing with a rifle barrel bent so badly that the point of impact is a meter to the left of point of aim at 25 meters)?

"Leading by bad example" is a tough judgement call, but ask yourself "What was anybody else doing to help the soldier qualify with his assigned weapon that day?" Was your platoon sergeant's decision to add firepower any worse example than your decision as range OIC to keep everybody on the range while continuing to burn through training ammunition (and dollars)? Also, the "in front of two battalions" touch should be irrelevant unless you are counseling him not to embarrass you in front of other units.

Next, please explain to this crusty old infantry officer (type slowly and use small words so I can keep up) exactly when and how firing into another shooter's lane became a safety violation, because I sure as hell don't recall any safety briefing which made any mention of rounds impacting within the target area while shooters were cleared to fire being a safety violation. And I can't recall anybody yelling "Check fire!" in Basic (or anywhere else) any of the times that it happened inadvertently. Aside from stoking your blood pressure, whose health and safety did this sergeant endanger?

Ultimately, all I see that you have a solid case for professionally counseling your platoon sergeant about is whether he showed good judgement in his attempt to falsely qualify the soldier in question. That is a serious integrity issue in its own right, but that message is likely to get lost if you mixed it in with what come across as offenses to your ego.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 3:10 PM

2015-03-11T15:10:21-04:00

Sir

I am really surprised that you made the decision to just give this NCO a counseling with no further action. He did an unsafe act in the range, and he also lied to your face not once but twice. I would recommend some type of administrative action to the command and probably a relief for cause NCOER.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2015 5:09 PM

2015-03-11T17:09:01-04:00

I remember when EIB or graduating basic training was around, this was common practice. I have seen drill sergeants do this, Platoon Sergeants for EIB.

First thing you have to ask yourself before you read the rest of this advise is, was the soldiers intentions in the right place, how common was this before you took charge, and what is his overall performance up until this point. If he has made a slew of bad decisions do what you must...

But if he is a good soldier and worth saving...

Now going from the NCOes point of view, he believed the end justified the means, which also helps your numbers on participants for the EIB.

Depending on the tone of his voice what he said and what he meant were probably two different things. If he used more of a snide, insincere tone he is actually saying "yes I did sir but I am saying, No to not verbally implement you in what I did; so we can look the other way and help this soldier out....

Now was it against safety protocols to shoot next to someone on the range in that close of proximity yes it is, but in combat you shoot closer and while people are crossing in front of you.

Now what was done was wrong, a good response would be to take the platoon aside let them know how you disapprove of this type of behavior, Keep this in house for this first offense. Basically airing this dirty laundry shows you have no control over your own platoon, and by frying this guy right away and ruining his career over trying to help another soldier. Some of your soldiers will see you as someone they can not trust. Do something internally for punishment and you shouldn't have to let the command know. It is your platoon take charge and enforce the standard yourself. Once you can't then bring it to the command. Unless this was done in front of you boss, then your hands are tied.