What's your view on doing away with the VA health system?

MAJ David Vermillion — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 08:56:23 -0400

Would it be better to have all veterans choose their own provider?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 9:06 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:06:08 -0400

Many depend on the VA hospital. But, if they had a way to go elsewhere and have the cost still covered it would be easier for many as many have to travel long s]distances to the VA facility. Travel is not always easy for older folks.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 19 at 2016 9:07 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:07:01 -0400

Non-Sarcastic Question.

Have we done well with VA provided Health Benefits?

Are we good at it?

Can we become good at it?

If the answer to these questions aren't Yes..Maybe we should consider it.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Apr 19 at 2016 9:30 AM

CSM Michael Poll — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:30:25 -0400

I would love the VA to release veterans to see their primary care doctors. I believe this will reduce the number of issues that are currently going on. In my experience, the doctors at the VA are really good, it is the ADMIN that seems to suck really bad. Now I have run into a couple people that are great, but the majority are awful. Making it so the veteran can see a doctor closer to home and the doctor they normally see would be very beneficial. It will cut down the travel pay/time for the veteran and they will see the doctor that knows them. Logistics would be a little harder as the veterans are now at their primary doc, but a system could be easily made for these docs to upload info into the computer for the VA to track.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 9:32 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:32:13 -0400

It would sound like there are a lot of providers through the VA system that can't help with some issues but doing it away all together wouldn't make things better. Give the Vets more of a choice through the program rather having them scramble to find a provider for their care; give specific options if a condition isn't improving; second opinions, alternative care. There's always a way to find something to rid of the ailment or at least, ease up the pain.

If the whole VA health system is were to be gone, there would be a lot of people in pain and their health would deteriorate faster than it should.

Response by LTC Marc King made Apr 19 at 2016 9:54 AM

LTC Marc King — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 09:54:12 -0400

The VA medical system was created at a time when medical care not only for Veterans but for the public in general was sparse at best. It served its purpose with verying degrees of effectiveness. In 2016 most folk are just a short drive from competent medical care. The kind of care that would better serve those who need it. If there is a requirement for special needs such as the care and treatment of vets with PTSD the private sector would fill that need if asked too. Rehab for the severely wounded is already part of the private sectors capability. Turn the system over to the private sector and get government out of the business. A profit motive to do well is a much better inducement for supplying quality care than union driven standards to do the minimum. Why are Vets relegated to the mistreatment of the VA Medical system when the solution in right in front of us.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Apr 19 at 2016 10:10 AM

PO3 Donald Murphy — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:10:07 -0400

Speaking as a disabled vet, theres two problems I have with the VA:

1. It takes forever and a day to schedule anything and...

2. Once you get something scheduled, get a great rapport with that killer doctor, the doctor then moves as they were just using the VA as a "stepping stone" to further their career. You then have to "bond" with that doctor's replacement all over again, go through 900 initiation appointments, meet the doctor again, etc.

A better solution would be to just do away with it and put everyone on TriCare.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 10:25 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:25:58 -0400

This is a mixed question, Yes it would be nice to pick your own provider but that is not the only issue with the VA. I have a friend who's wife is a case worker with more then 3k active cases. The main issue in her words is that they are to top heavy. If they were to thin down the administrators and clear away some red tape you would see a large improvement in the care provided.

My personal look is this, open veterans for non VA providers and simplify the process at the VA. But do not completely do away with the VA.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Apr 19 at 2016 10:40 AM

Capt Seid Waddell — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:40:35 -0400

If the vets had a VA card that could be used in any medical facility it would relieve all of the backlog and service denial issues. Vets could still use VA facilities when available.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 10:59 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 10:59:23 -0400

I am interested to hear what the retired folks have to say about it - never dealt with them and only know what I hear in the news or anecdotally from ppl I know.

Response by SGT Kevin Edge made Apr 19 at 2016 11:25 AM

SGT Kevin Edge — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:25:03 -0400

I think the VA needs to improve, yes. Does not need to be gotten rid of completely . That seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Apr 19 at 2016 11:33 AM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:33:29 -0400

Single-payer healthcare solves this issue.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 11:37 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:37:28 -0400

I'm all for eliminating the extra overhead cost of maintaining a seprate health system for vets. Just provide coverage.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Apr 19 at 2016 11:49 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:49:37 -0400

The VA's problems appear to be with the System, not the Vets or the providers (Dr, Nurse Practitioners, PAs, etc.). Doing away with the system while providing access to needed medical care for veterans sounds good. It could cut down on travel for some veterans. The "fly in the ointment" may be cost. There still will need to be a way to administer the benefits and account for the funds, so the VA medical department won't completely go away. Alternative might be to fold VA medical benefits into TRICARE administration.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Apr 19 at 2016 11:50 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:50:08 -0400

It works good for me. Living OCONUS, I use the Foreign Medical Program (FMP). A little different. First I have to contact the U.S. Embassy in Oslo to make an appointment, then the process starts. So far it works good. My biggest problem is I've yet to find any Danish doctors who want to deal with the VA paper work and system, so I end up getting appointments in Germany, usually around Frankfurt or lower down. Costs me time and lots of planning, but so far ok.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 12:24 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:24:53 -0400

And replaced with what? Private or public healthcare at their facilities? Nowhere near all veterans would benefit by such a drastic change. Perhaps even more than those who would.

Response by MAJ Hugh Blanchard made Apr 19 at 2016 12:49 PM

MAJ Hugh Blanchard — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:49:25 -0400

Pay me now or pay me later. I am very concerned that if the VA is destroyed, then who cares for their patients? Where are the facilities and skilled medical help to come from? Who pays for it?
Most of the veterans in the VA system do not have the individual means to pay for the long-term care which they require. Also, the private sector does not have a very good record of caring for needy or less-well-off patients. How many times have we seen horror stories about nursing homes and long-term care facilities that are not taking good care of their elderly patients? I'd rather be dead than be left to rot in some cheapo institution that doesn't provide good medical care, good nutrition and some modicum of personal attention and engagement. Are people supposed to stare out of a window in a "group room" for years until they die? Yugghhh....

Response by SSG Bethany Viglietta made Apr 19 at 2016 12:55 PM

SSG Bethany Viglietta — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 12:55:58 -0400

I am still active duty Army, but use TriCare Remote since there isn't an active duty base nearby. I can tell you that civilian doctors generally do not know what to do with our combat related injuries. They do not know the signs to look for with our injuries unless they are trained.

The VA definitely needs to be improved, but by no means should it go away. Doctors, nurses, and other professionals who work for the VA need to be paid competitive wages and be specially trained on our needs/injuries. Yes they will see us for the common stuff, but it's the blast type injuries, the injuries caused by the wear and tear of the military, the stuff they won't see on a day by day basis at a civilian practice that will make the difference in our level of care.

Response by SFC Wade W. made Apr 19 at 2016 1:04 PM

SFC Wade W. — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:04:36 -0400

I believe for some this would work but I personally believe the VA does much more than just provide medical services. Where would you go to get face to face service for all of the other things the VA does. I also believe having access to medical professionals who are familiar with applying for disability and can help you put everything together for that application cannot be replicated by the civilian sector. I know that the disability application process is already screwed up but imagine what it would be like with medical personnel who do not know how to properly write the summary for a disability claim. I love my team at the VA in Prescott, AZ and I use the entire facility for my medical needs. If I had to travel to several different offices to get my medical care, medical devices and prescriptions I would be put in a very difficult position.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 1:39 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 13:39:05 -0400

Believe this would be bad. I am retired form the Navy and am a combat disabled Vet, so I am CAT one at the VA. Have a civilian care provider from Tricare and one from VA because of my service connected issues. My civilian provider does not under stand any of my VA connected issues and the VA has a full under standing of them. The example is I am creeping into the gulf illnesses issues and my doctor just wants to treat the one problem not understanding that some problems are tied together. I believe that a lot of issues and misdiagnoses will happen if you turn over to providers that do not have history or understand service connected issues. VA understands Vet health problems like TBI, PTSD, Sleep disorders and depression that is caused from military service.

Also believe that form what I see medical side is good but the admin side is back in the 60's and needs to be overhauled.

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Apr 19 at 2016 3:55 PM

CPT Joseph K Murdock — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 15:55:56 -0400

We will have some other organization to bitch about.

Response by PFC Joseph . Sheffield made Apr 19 at 2016 4:24 PM

PFC Joseph . Sheffield — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 16:24:47 -0400

Sgt. I believe that as bad as the VA might be I don't know of any thing better the VA helps veterans share their stores and lives at our hospitals and outpatient clinic their not perfect but what could be better for military personal and vets

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 5:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:34:24 -0400

On one hand there could be a benefit if veterans were able to have access to more doctors or clinics. On the other side providers may not provide certain services or do so at a considerable cost. Given the rise of the affordable care act and other programs, there should be a comprehensive way forward to get more care to more people than the current overburdened system. Perhaps if the same money that goes to VA went to subsidize companies to provide care, a balance could be struck.

Response by PFC Patrick States made Apr 19 at 2016 5:38 PM

PFC Patrick States — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:38:56 -0400

I think that it would be great. Simply dissolve the VA hospital system and insure every veteran at 100%. Then they can go to their local provider for the care they need. I am lucky that the VA hospital is only 15 miles from my house and on a good traffic day it's about a half an hour drive. There are 10 civilian hospitals closer to me including 4 under 5 miles. Let the vets go to who ever they want.

Response by CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter made Apr 19 at 2016 5:54 PM

CPO Emmett (Bud) Carpenter — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 17:54:18 -0400

No way

Response by LTC Joseph Gross made Apr 19 at 2016 6:18 PM

LTC Joseph Gross — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:18:10 -0400

I'm opposed to the natural, hip shot reaction that closing VA somehow violates our agreement with the government. I would be ok with shutout ting it all down resulted in veterans getting better, quicker service at non VA facilities.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 6:36 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 18:36:04 -0400

I'm currently in the works of drafting up legislation to do exactly that within NYC. Wingsforwarriors.org

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Apr 19 at 2016 7:05 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 19:05:28 -0400

I would be all for it. Its a broken system and has been for years and years. Move everyone to Tricare. Privatize the VA hospitals if they wish to specializations that accommodate rehabilitation of war injuries, but sack the whole system.

Response by Sgt Edward Allen made Apr 19 at 2016 8:51 PM

Sgt Edward Allen — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 20:51:01 -0400

I believe that American service members would be receiving their due if they could pick the provider of their choice. My uncle had to use the VA for cataract surgery, and it looked like an amateur did it. My brother had to drive 4 hours and stay overnight at a motel for cancer treatments.

We served. Some receive benefits (I don't as I did not retire or participate in combat). Those who are receiving medical benefits should be allowed to get the best they can. Not long delays and less then quality treatment from the VA.

Hell, I wish they would do away with the VA! They are a bunch of clingers on who are sucking from the teat of the government. Rebuild the VA from the ground up.

Response by LT Erik Frederick made Apr 19 at 2016 9:41 PM

LT Erik Frederick — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 21:41:10 -0400

I don't think this has to be an "all or nothing" proposition. This could be done as a pilot program in a few areas that are either a long way from a facility as well as do a few pilots where the existing facility is overcrowded.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 10:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:47:53 -0400

I think that there should be an established benefits system, but to be restricted to some of the providers that have been complained about time and time again....that is just not fair.

Response by PO3 Elle Williams (Schnitzius) made Apr 19 at 2016 10:57 PM

PO3 Elle Williams (Schnitzius) — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 22:57:08 -0400

After dealing with a local clinic doctor that a lump found during a routine breast check was nothing and she discourages her patients from such self-exams, I found a civilian provider. This was one of many issues I've encountered with a satellite clinic that is losing doctors and nurses at a very high rate. I have great respect for VA overall, but maybe allowing us to find our own doctors might be best.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Apr 19 at 2016 11:40 PM

SFC Rollie Hubbard — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 23:40:03 -0400

Not a bad idea as long as the costs were covered

Response by GySgt Carl Munford made Apr 20 at 2016 12:22 AM

GySgt Carl Munford — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 00:22:23 -0400

Why hasn't it been done already? I am, fortunately, able to use Civilian Health Care. In my opinion, comparing the V A Health Care System to Civilian Heath Care is not even close. I have been scrutinized, mistreated, had my Wife Verbally assaulted at V.A. Clinics and Hospitals in Nebraska. I could write a book however, I believe my point is made, Scrap the V.A. Health System Now!!

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Apr 20 at 2016 6:57 AM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 06:57:56 -0400

As far as I am concerned, the VA system (and not just the medical) is nothing but another bloated federal agency who seems to go out of their way to make life difficult for veterans and retirees but until the political double speak and posturing ends it will remain business as usual. As a retiree I have seen a continual loss of benefits ended in the name of saving dollars yet the DoD pushes forward with one obscenely priced program after another many which duplicate systems being developed by another branch of the service already yet those who served with honor and dignity previously are the ones that are paying with broken promises. Lack of COLA's for retirees under the false flag on zero inflation, limited access to local pharmacies utilized for years, commissary being tinkered with, a new retirement pay system, and now talk of cutting GI Bill benefits is just several in a long list of cuts to those served and we all know how bad the VA medical system can be. To those young people looking to serve their nation today and to those serving contemplating a career, I would exercise caution as you have become as disposable as the vending machine coffee cup.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Apr 20 at 2016 7:49 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:49:07 -0400

I am 40% service connected disabled and on permanent disability retirement. Later in life I became 100% disable due to no service connected reasons. I use the VA for primary care at an outpatient clinic, but use Medicare and Tricare for Life for all specialist, test, imagery, surgery, pharmacy, etc. this keeps the VA informed of my total health situation while I can select my providers of choice for everything else.

Response by SSgt Alan Cook made Apr 20 at 2016 7:59 AM

SSgt Alan Cook — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:30 -0400

but of course, the government breeds theft, and most care only about dollars, not about vet health care, if there politicians involved there are crooks , thieves,

Response by MSgt Darum Danford made Apr 20 at 2016 7:59 AM

MSgt Darum Danford — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 07:59:55 -0400

I'm 80% disabled and can receive care for a sniffle free of charge from the VA. I have used this benefit zero times. At some point veterans should be responsible for their own health. As the system is now some completely rely upon the VA for their health care , personal health be damned. While something may not be immediately life threatening, if you can't see a doctor for two or three months, it certainly could turn in a life threatening situation. The system for appointments and wait times is not going to get better and an alternative should be sought to reduce the wait times but a little personal responsibility for ones own health would go a long way. Enabling them to pick their own provider would certainly help them do that.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 8:06 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:06:37 -0400

I hear the news of extended wait times at VA hospitals, but at least as a government funded operation, there are checks and balances. Yes the VA has issues, but watching the whole choice program roll out, and all the issues I see with it, I don't think privatizing the VA will accomplish what we as Vets need. There will be no accountability with outside providers. I would like to see more accountability at my VA and hopefully they are on the right track to fix that.

Response by SGT Frederick Beckett made Apr 20 at 2016 8:16 AM

SGT Frederick Beckett — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:16:22 -0400

A system that utilizes VA hospitals for those injuries and/or diseases peculiar to service related disease or injury and an open availability to other medical facilities might help the situation. With that type of help available to Vets there would be a case load distribution that could be better handled by the VA Hospitals and make ready care open to the VET.

Response by SFC Keith Kingsley made Apr 20 at 2016 8:32 AM

SFC Keith Kingsley — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:32:20 -0400

Yes. Why should our taxes pay for a corrupt health system?

Response by SFC Dr. Fred Lockard made Apr 20 at 2016 9:00 AM

SFC Dr. Fred Lockard — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:00:58 -0400

Vets complain about the VA - its what they do. The VA is a big, easy target to take out their frustrations on. But the VA consistently scores higher in customer satisfaction than other healthcare options. It has its bad apples for sure, like any other healthcare system, but for me personally, I love the care I get. I cannot tell you how many vets I know that have used the new "find your own provider" option but returned to the VA rather quickly. Most civilian providers do not care that you are a vet, do not know the unique challenges vets face, and could care less about your service. They just want the government dollar. And no, I do not work for the VHA!

Response by SFC Dr. Fred Lockard made Apr 20 at 2016 9:10 AM

SFC Dr. Fred Lockard — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 09:10:16 -0400

The problem with the VA, and the federal government in general, is the supervisors inability to discipline and get rid of under performing employees. I was a Team Leader at a Vet Center and I had 2 under performing employees I tried to get rid of to no avail. I was told the risk of a law suit was too great to risk firing the employees! So they were allowed to continue to work, get paid, receive benefits, despite bad ratings, counseling statements, etc. So you have these employees that really only care about their paycheck and making sure they leave right at the 40-hour mark each week. They are allowed to be rude to vets and no one says anything. As far as I know, even the Sec of the VA does not have the power to fire someone on the spot. This has to change. Set up a task force whose goal is to go out and find bad employees, write them up, and get them out.

Response by CMDCM Rod Rosacker made Apr 20 at 2016 10:06 AM

CMDCM Rod Rosacker — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:06:37 -0400

I currently use the VA for 100% of my medical needs although I have TRICARE insurance. I live in the San Diego area and am fortunate to have many locations to go. LA Jolla VA is one of the top hospitals in the nation in my opinion. They are very responsive and provide referrals to civilian locations if they cant see you quickly. As for not living close to a VA hospital or clinic. In the last year or so if you are in the VA system you should have received a card called "VA Choice" which allows you to go somewhere near your location, Away or home. Check it out at http://www.va.gov/opa/choiceact.

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Response by 1SG Krista Ochs (formerly Munyon/Terry) made Apr 20 at 2016 10:15 AM

1SG Krista Ochs (formerly Munyon/Terry) — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:15:32 -0400

For higher level care, I would agree...

Response by SP5 Gene Nevill made Apr 20 at 2016 10:16 AM

SP5 Gene Nevill — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:16:01 -0400

Doing away with VA health care sounds good, I fear that would end up being the first step in eliminated of covered health care for those vets in real need. I would hope I am wrong, but past history tends to move toward the get your own and it would be strictly a system controlled by the insurance industry.

Response by Sgt John Greenaway made Apr 20 at 2016 10:16 AM

Sgt John Greenaway — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:16:56 -0400

The health system is needed by the veterans because where earned it. If veteran has health issue related to their time in service the government has responsibility to provide care. I can relate to this because I was exposed to chemical that shouldn't have been mixed with jet fuel that we used for training. Thus there are thousands of people were exposed to toxic chemical that shouldn't have been.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Apr 20 at 2016 10:19 AM

1SG Mark Colomb — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:19:17 -0400

I do not think that "Doing away with" the VA health system will appreciably change anything. The biggest problem with the VA is in the administrative side, scheduling appointments and determining benefits based on service connected disability. It has been my experience that the VA staff personnel who have day-to-day contact and interaction with the Veteran population truly care about the Veteran. Not so much with the administration staff. To outsource the healthcare role to local hospitals, in many areas, will create such a burden those hospitals will not have the resources to meet the needs, many of them specific to the military experience, of their new found customer. To accommodate this the medical staff previously employed by the VA system will be hired into the private sector. So the direct care provided will not change much, while the administrative processes will not change at all, and will probably worsen since there will be a corresponding decline in budget.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Apr 20 at 2016 10:30 AM

SFC Thomas Howes — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:30:22 -0400

I am with Capt Porter on this but if the democrats have anything to do with it we will get screwed

Response by SrA Kristin Stewart made Apr 20 at 2016 10:41 AM

SrA Kristin Stewart — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 10:41:43 -0400

i prefer using the va, i feel more comfortable there, i like that there are others like me all around, gives me a sense of still being in. besides i have absolutly no complaints about the care ive received in the 16 yrs ive been using them. i hear all the problems but honestly, i have never encountered any of them and ive used 4 different states in the last 16 yrs. granted the getting to know the new hospital is a tad frustrating but doesnt take long at all to get comfortable with them. the very few times ive been sent to civilian drs because the va couldnt do something, i hated it.

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Apr 20 at 2016 11:09 AM

SSG Byron Hewett — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:09:52 -0400

Bad idea that's what helps keep me healthy, alive, and out of the poor house and a cardboard box. and those medical professionals that work in the V.A. take a little bit more time to care and to make sure you get what need and don't just diagnose and run off to treat somebody else.
are there hang ups and screw ups and does the ball get dropped yup but for the most part they do get it done and do get it done right and they do care and yes there are those special select few that cause a lot of bad press and screw things up a lot.........
but I'll take the V.A. heath care system any day of the week verses going to a civilian facility where they over bill you when they are not supposed to bill you at all and then they treat you not so good for being a veteran.
I love the V.A. health care system because they really do care and take their to take care of the veterans. The V.A. has my Endorsement and vote ☺

Response by TSgt Eric Lewis made Apr 20 at 2016 11:26 AM

TSgt Eric Lewis — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:26:23 -0400

Okay, before I answer. . . I don't use a VA hospital, but l am friends with some that do/have. My work insurance covers me very well. With that said...

I think that a vet should be able to choose their own physician. The vet will feel more comfortable seeing the same physician, or group of physicians, than not knowing who they will see when going to a VA facility. I know there is a VA clinic close, but the closest VA hospital is a hour and a half away. Not everyone is lucky enough to have a clinic within 30 minutes. To do this, l would think the VA would have to set themselves up like an insurance company to inform the vet what doctors are available in their area. Also, they would have to be more dependable than they are now with payments or it will end up like Tricare and not widely excepted.

Response by PO2 Christina Hutson made Apr 20 at 2016 11:50 AM

PO2 Christina Hutson — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:50:42 -0400

Very doubtful since Healthcare insurance is quite a bit higher for individuals who is on a fixed income. Who brought this ideal up in the first place. We some of the people were brave enough to join the service. Now your talking bout doing away with it when they said they would provide medical care to its veterans. What more is taking place that some individuals don't know about. Also there are some Veterans already doctoring with the civilian sector with some of the issues that they can't handle and paying out of there own pockets. I believe the VA HOSPITALS JUST NEED TO DO A BETTER ASSESSMENT OF PRIORITY SO IT DOESN'T COME DOWN TO THIS. SO HOW IS OTHER PEOPLE FEELINGS ON THIS ISSUE

Response by COL David McClean made Apr 20 at 2016 11:54 AM

COL David McClean — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 11:54:18 -0400

Privatization is best. Issue with the VA as with all governmental agencies- you cannot fire folks for not meeting the standards. Most government employees do the bare minimum to stay employed. That's bad news for health care

Response by SSgt William Quinn, MSSCM made Apr 20 at 2016 12:17 PM

SSgt William Quinn, MSSCM — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:17:16 -0400

It has been well documented that the VA health system has failed veterans miserably. Clearly something must be done. The VA health system is so far gone that I do believe that blowing it up and moving veterans to the private health care system is the answer. Even if the system was not broken, many do not use for simple lack of access. As with most government agencies it is bloated with waste and no one is concerned with the bottom line. With private healthcare the veteran would be able to choose their doctor and get the care they need when they need it. Why should those in this country illegally have better access to healthcare than those who served to protect the nation?

Response by LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD made Apr 20 at 2016 12:21 PM

LTC Terrence Farrier, PhD — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:21:47 -0400

No. It would be like asking doctor's who specialize in childcare illnesses to advance to military specific care overnight. Many veteran's are damaged more than others and may have a harder time manipulating the complex insurance paperwork (getting increasingly more complex) that civilian hospitals and insurance companies require. I will give one "attaboy" to the VA concerning their ability to generally make the payment for medical services a little easier...because, although not always...they do make it a bit easier than some. I do agree with the comment Capt Porter makes below though. The availability to get to the VA over long distances needs a close pragmatic look and if the veteran chooses to go to a local doctor or medical facility under those circumstances, the VA should accommodate it...including taking care of the paperwork! Increasingly, the VA is moving more and more in that directions simply because there isn't funding to build more VA facilities and attract physicians who are usually lower paid to begin with. There are always pro and con issues to consider.

Response by SPC Brian Mason made Apr 20 at 2016 12:22 PM

SPC Brian Mason — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:22:25 -0400

The entire healthcare system in the U.S. has a problem. As a Medic (Veteran), I learned a great deal over my career. There are not enough providers who can legally, hands-on treat every single person. There are over 319 million people in the U.S.; with at least 22 million Veterans in that number. The VA Healthcare system has long been short staffed; doctors, nurses, medical assistants, medical techs, surgeons, etc.
No one can force any healthcare professional to work for the VA. That is why the wait times are so long, even when you and I show up early (as much as half an hour) for your appointment. F/U appointments are at least 4 months or more. Getting more providers and such to work, long-term for the VA will help. Shuffling us out to 'contracted' providers outside the system isn't helping. Our Electronic Health Record, may not be in their system.
Another huge problem is the denial of Veterans who's MOS, like myself is in the Medical field. I could work for the VA, but there are senseless 'red tape' BS in the way. That is apparently more important than getting Veterans like myself the healthcare, mental and physical, that they need.

Response by PO1 Michael Lee made Apr 20 at 2016 12:23 PM

PO1 Michael Lee — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:23:46 -0400

I think the system would work if the Va would stop dictating how the doctor do their jobs. The C & P system need to be over hauled, you see this doctor once and he can make a decision on your health, I don't think so, and this is why there are so many appeals.

Response by SSG Ernesto Rivera-jovet made Apr 20 at 2016 12:32 PM

SSG Ernesto Rivera-jovet — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:32:18 -0400

From my point of view I can vouch for V.A. Health System in Nashville Tn. They give proffecional care. What has to change is the attitude of veterans who abuse of the system.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 20 at 2016 12:33 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 12:33:14 -0400

so how is this gonna work, 50 percent combat related, i go mainly to the va and i'm covered

Response by FN George Woodruff made Apr 20 at 2016 1:09 PM

FN George Woodruff — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:09:54 -0400

I believe that doing away with the VA health system would cause a worse crisis than we have now. Dumping an additional nine million veterans on civilian health care would overload the system to the point that it would have a hard time trying to handle the load. As a 100 percent service disabled World War Two/Korean War veteran who has used the VA for over sixty five years I have seen both the good and the bad of the VA system. I have also used civilian healthcare via Medicare and a supplement that I bought when I lived over a hundred miles from a VA Hospital. All in all I like VA care better as VA doctors have a better understanding of how to treat service incurred problems than most civilian doctors and I have used both. For the past two years I have been living in the finest VA Nursing Home (Trinka Davis Veterans Village) in the entire system and the care has been superb! I believe if Congress understood how to write laws concerning the VA that actually dealt with the problems it work far better for all veterans and most of today's concerns would be eliminated.

Response by TSgt James Emanuel made Apr 20 at 2016 1:19 PM

TSgt James Emanuel — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:19:28 -0400

Not a good idea. The VA is geared specifically for vets and their conditions. I am totally under VA care with 90% service connected disability. I have received care from GA VA, So. Cal VA as well as Nor Cal VA. In all my dealings with these entities, I have never had a bad experience. Invariably, the volunteers are terrific. The medical staff for the most part, is dedicated to providing the best care and I think most vets appreciate their efforts.

I think going into the civilian medical system will put vets in the same waiting lines as everybody else. Since the doctor or hospital knows that the government will be paying them, they may balk at taking on vet patients because of the hassle of negotiating costs and fees for services rendered. What the provider asks for is not what they get. I don't think that civilian doctors or hospitals have the experience in handling military-related medical issues. Of course, there are exceptions.

As an example of providing for vets, at the Sacramento Mather VAMC, there is a new facility for vets from the Afghan/Iraq war. The emergency admitting area has been expanded and modernized. Prescriptions are ordered online and delivered to my door in 3-5 days. I can get non-emergency medical questions answered by secure email usually within one day. I live pretty close to an out-patient clinic (at Travis), but the VAMC is 44 miles out. Although a medical emergency will be handled by a local hospital thru Medicare, they would not have access to my records and history.

After all that, I do believe that the VA system can and should be improved, especially in upper management. Along those lines, I think that here are some well qualified vets who could fill those slots. And along with that responsibility comes accountability.

Response by SrA Chris Hendra made Apr 20 at 2016 1:28 PM

SrA Chris Hendra — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:28:21 -0400

I think the VA should be kept for certain things but overall I think going to a local doctor would be a lot better. Veterans choice is also a PIA...

Response by SGT Johnny Owens made Apr 20 at 2016 1:59 PM

SGT Johnny Owens — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 13:59:34 -0400

Eliminate the VA healthcare system.

I have researched the cost of a VA healthcare facility, and if my calculations are right the salaries alone in one hospital exceed $250,000,000 per year. 60,000 veterans visit the Indianapolis VAMC annually, these salaries alone would provide over $4,000 per year to vets. We could have extraordinary insurance if we eliminated the VA health careless system.

Response by SGT Eliyahu Rooff made Apr 20 at 2016 2:03 PM

SGT Eliyahu Rooff — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:03:18 -0400

How many civilian providers have experience and training in dealing with PTSD from combat, EID wounds, and many of the other things that are unique to military service? There are a lot of times when it might be more convenient to go to a civilian doctor, but until we finally get a single-payer health care system, it'll always be a PITA for everyone concerned.

Response by Sgt Jerry Genesio made Apr 20 at 2016 2:15 PM

Sgt Jerry Genesio — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 14:15:31 -0400

It certainly would avoid a lot of hassle and delays regarding prescriptions especially for those whose primary care physician is outside of the VA system. I have MediCare and a supplemental policy that combined cost me almost $300/month. I get my prescriptions through the VA because I have a 60% disability, but when there are prescription additions or changes, it's a real hassle having to get a VA doctor to approve it again before it can be provided by a VA pharmacy. In addition, virtually all civilian hospitals are struggling to stay afloat because they are forced to provide service for so many at no charge. If vets were able to seek medical care at facilities of their choice, with 100% paid by the government, it would certainly help to alleviate that situation as well. Finally, those responsible for the recent VA scandals very probably could not have survived in a civilian hospital where everything is reviewed very closely and regularly, especially because of the financial strain they are constantly under.

Response by A1C Lisa Casserly made Apr 20 at 2016 3:19 PM

A1C Lisa Casserly — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:19:31 -0400

I almost think it would. Having VA hospitals is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, for people like my family - we live in Northern Minnesota and North Dakota - the closest VA hospital is now a 9 hour drive away!! Going to the VA hospital is pointless. There is a VA office in Grand Forks, ND... but they do NOTHING but some paperwork. I have been told that the VA hospital in Fargo (over 100 miles away) has been CLOSED. The VA hospital in St. Cloud - 4 1/2 hours drive at highway speed - has also reportedly been closed down. So, that leaves us with a facility in Minneapolis/St. Paul. And that's just not do-able. My son - an Afghanistan veteran - does not use the VA system, and gets no health care for his damaged shoulder. My daughter - also an Afghanistan veteran and a wounded warrior - may not BE ABLE to come home when she is released from Walter Reed because of the distance for health care.

Response by SrA Greg Hardin made Apr 20 at 2016 3:40 PM

SrA Greg Hardin — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:40:03 -0400

This would be the worst thing to do. I was am R.N for 13 years. Our wounded veterans are the most important asset we have. So many of our V.A employees have respect and allegiance to our veterans that the private contractors do not have. Our wounded veterans would lose some of their respected status. Our wounded veterans need to be treated differently than our non veterans. Our wounded veterans have a special status!!!

Response by 1stSgt Nelson Kerr made Apr 20 at 2016 3:40 PM

1stSgt Nelson Kerr — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 15:40:14 -0400

Since the coverage provided is about as likely to provide cost free coverage without deductibles as we a all are to win the lottery on the same day I am against the idea. It will make a very profitable pot of gold for some and screw the vets like tricare did for retirees

Response by MSgt John Butcher made Apr 20 at 2016 5:03 PM

MSgt John Butcher — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:03:45 -0400

I'm not in favor of doing away with the VA. I'd like the problems fixed and fire the screw ups.

Response by SGT David T. made Apr 20 at 2016 6:09 PM

SGT David T. — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:09:50 -0400

If the system is equal to or greater than what is currently provide and the cost to the vet is equal or less than current, I would be in favor of such a move.

Response by CPT Jim Davis made Apr 20 at 2016 6:12 PM

CPT Jim Davis — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:12:21 -0400

There are some things the VA is more prepared to deal with than your average private provider. Now, if the VA could focus on those specific things alone (TBI, PTSD, Spinal Cord Damage) then they might be able to handle the load. Then, if the veteran could choose his or her own outside physicians, and just have THEM bill the VA, it might work. One issue I do see is medication. Right now, the VA gets to negotiate prices for medications (something Medicare cannot do), and so the agency spends far less on meds for us.

Response by MSgt Herbert Shaw made Apr 20 at 2016 6:33 PM

MSgt Herbert Shaw — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:33:41 -0400

I think the Veterans would greatly benefit from being able to get timely medical care from civilian providers. As usual, everything the government tries to run, they do it poorly. I think the military hospitals and clinics would do a much better job providing healthcare to our vets as an alternative to civilian providers.

Response by CPT Brian Hentz made Apr 20 at 2016 7:06 PM

CPT Brian Hentz — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:06:49 -0400

I don't think it is a good idea. For the most part my VA health care has been very good and consistent. All of the VA providers I have used have been excellent with 1 exception. But that happens in non VA providers too.

Response by SGT Jason Mouret made Apr 20 at 2016 7:31 PM

SGT Jason Mouret — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:31:24 -0400

Let me start by saying I love my VA . But today I stayed on the phone for 12 minutes before anyone ever picked up. Then on hold another 3 minutes. Finally after a total of 27 minutes I had an appointment scheduled. I don't know of any civilian doctor ever having a 27 minutes to schedule an appointment. Now this is the same way appointments actually go as well. Your appointment time is at 1015 you won't be seen until 1200. Great Doctors but not being properly managed. Unions have no place in health care.

Response by SPC Louis Gillespie made Apr 20 at 2016 7:45 PM

SPC Louis Gillespie — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 19:45:09 -0400

Let's be frank about this topic of discussion. Is the VA Medical Care Perfect? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Has it saved lives? You best believe that it has, does it require changes, updates and the removal of All the absolute disgusting garbage in management and so called medical professionals. Hell Yes, the sooner the better. Many management and medical staff line their pockets and cost the lives of our Brothers and Sisters in Arms. I for one have experienced and seen some of the good they have done like saving the lives of several of my Veteran friends and I have chosen to have my medical treatments and care with the VA because I earned it and that was part of the agreement by me signing that blank check to the government. To answer this question, YES is my answer ! In some cases if the care cannot be obtained at the local VA facility then the Veteran should be able to seek treatment elsewhere without all the read tape and BS from the politicians who are clueless and have No Medical background. I believe obtaining a voucher of some sort and submitting it to the VA to have the medical provider compensated could be accomplished just as the insurance companies do every single day !

Response by CPL Joshua Wood made Apr 20 at 2016 9:52 PM

CPL Joshua Wood — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 21:52:35 -0400

It would be a huge win to give veterans a real choice. Anyone with a basic understanding of economics would conclude that free market healthcare would be best. If you get crappy service at a private hospital you can go somewhere else. The fact that I have to drive 3 hours away for the closest VA is crazy .. The choice program is a joke... I have to scream and go through hell to utilize it and I still receive bills.

Response by MSgt Daniel Harrison made Apr 20 at 2016 10:25 PM

MSgt Daniel Harrison — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 22:25:48 -0400

First of all, every military vet has a right not to use the VA Hospitals if they choose to. You're not obligated to use a VA Hospital. Secondly, if the government closes down all the VA Hospitals they should increase the retirement pay to help Vets pay for health insurance.

Response by SGT Stanley Bass made Apr 20 at 2016 11:42 PM

SGT Stanley Bass — Wed, 20 Apr 2016 23:42:21 -0400

I read the question wrong. now that I saw a response, I had to seek non va care because my nearest VA did not have a specialist at the time. I used the non VA referal because Veterans choice fell through. This was after moving and changing regions and having to start all over again with a new VA Region. It would be nice if the system was more efficient and it did not take so long some times to get a simple appointment out of VA. On the other side though, almost all of my care has been with the VA since retirement. I don't mind the reimbursement for mileage, I schedule my appointments around payday so I can afford the initial cost. So if somebody in the VA needs to see my info, it is all in one location, no need for a release of records

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 3:51 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 03:51:52 -0400

When "doing away with the VA health system" would this change still utilize the VA category Priority Groups for care? How will that affect co-pays and medication cost? If hospitals\clinics throughout the country already have a long waiting list for care, how would this affect appointment utilization? Too many variables in the equation. Why not "FIX" the current VA system from the top on down? Billions of dollars have already been sunk into a broken system and many VA hospitals are still being built. FIX the broken system...that is the solution to it all.

Response by SPC Jerry Crain made Apr 21 at 2016 7:27 AM

SPC Jerry Crain — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 07:27:02 -0400

I have to agree with every thing I have read. They have some of the best doctors and nurses in the world. For the most part the administration should not be in charge of a kindergarten sand box. They are lazy, inept, control freaks or any combination of the 3.

Response by Sgt William Coffee made Apr 21 at 2016 9:03 AM

Sgt William Coffee — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 09:03:08 -0400

I use the VA Health care system. In my opinion they should do both. There are issues that only VA doctors and specialists are familiar with and those issues should go directly to them. For the rest of the day to day health issues a private physician would be well suited to address. I agree that the care at a VA facility is top notch. The problem is you have to wait an extended period of time before you can get to one. By allowing Veterans to go to their family practitioner would dramatically reduce the number of people that a VA facility would see, which would decrease wait times and allow them to come up with a more streamlined admin function. The system they use was never designed to handle the volume of patients. Dallas has 135,000 out patient visits a month. The government keeps throwing money at the problem but it only gets worse when the band aid falls off.

Response by PVT Greg Davis made Apr 21 at 2016 11:44 AM

PVT Greg Davis — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:44:05 -0400

Keep the VA system and hospitals. Overall, you'll get excellent medical treatment; in many cases better than in private sector hospitals and practicioners ( now overburdened with government overhead they're being driven to mediocrity. Most of the medical personnel I've encountered sre competent and anxious to do a good job and deliver excellent care. Admin folks need some work and counseling in customer service.

That said, it's time for an overhaul of the VA system administrators.
For a start, I'd fire the top third outright and have them face immediate prosecution for fraud. These sleazy folks have been ripping off the system for all it's worth for years, padding their paychecks with bonuses and expense reports which are downright criminal. The current trend seems to be to turn away needy Vets and intimidate, confuse, and frustrate them to prevent them from applying for benefits. With older Vets, and those suffering severely from Agent Orange, Gulf War Syndrome, and hazardous waste disposal fumes in Afghanistan and Iraq, the process is clearly to deny treatment until the Vet either gives up, or dies (problem solved!)

And then we have the fraudulent construction contracts which take money from care budgets to build eye candy projects of little value. If you want to be appalled, look at the Emergency Department in the VA hospital in our nation's capital! It compares favorably with the worst I've seen in underdeveloped countries. It comes complete with a Triage screener who looks, sounds, and acts like Idi Amin -- and is equally incompetent -- and is protected by uniformed thugs in security uniforms.

Congress could fix it all by setting up a competent IG staff and system that reports to Congress with powers of prosecution, and you'd be surprised at how quickly the system shapes up.

Take a look at who youre voting for as our next President.
Figure out which one has a track record of actuallu doing what he/she has promised for our troops/Vets and vote accordingly.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2016 11:48 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 11:48:43 -0400

We (the government) needs to work towards overhauling the VA Health Care System so it works. If a vet cannot see a doctor let them go outside the system for healthcare, but let's not destroy a healthcare system that keeps improving. Improvements take time especially when it come to government.

Response by SSG Derek Varchulik made Apr 21 at 2016 3:28 PM

SSG Derek Varchulik — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 15:28:24 -0400

I feel for physical needs the VA should let us see private Doctors.. for many reasons.. primarily due to the intentional lack of timely care VA has provided not to mention the burden of driving over 40 miles to some VA clinics and gross negligence of care .. However I believe psychological care should be maintained by VA because they have been dealing with vet issues more than most private psychs and have ppl who specialize in treating Vets with various disorders... even though the suicide rate is absurdly high.. We cannot solely blame the VA for this..

Response by CMSgt Blake Malpass made Apr 21 at 2016 4:39 PM

CMSgt Blake Malpass — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:39:21 -0400

The VA system (Admin) is so eaten up with fraud that it needs to be torn down and rebuilt. But, if we open veterans up to selected their own care providers, the insurance needs to be accepted by more providers than Tricare Prime is now. It is so hard to find a provider close to where we are moving soon that it concerns me greatly.

Response by GySgt Keith Brownmiller made Apr 21 at 2016 4:54 PM

GySgt Keith Brownmiller — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 16:54:06 -0400

Absolutely not! The VAMC health care system is uniquely designed to address the unique medical issues that Veterans face.

Response by SSgt Don Vineyard made Apr 21 at 2016 8:30 PM

SSgt Don Vineyard — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:30:53 -0400

While I would like to see Veterans be able to receive medical treatment from public/private facilities, there are specific things (Agent Orange, etc.) that require military records to determine exposure and/or specific details.

Response by SGT John Efelis made Apr 21 at 2016 8:44 PM

SGT John Efelis — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 20:44:47 -0400

I have used VA and have never had not one, single issue. I have been seen faster than at my local hospital or doctors office and I have been treated very nicely every visit.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Apr 22 at 2016 3:57 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Fri, 22 Apr 2016 03:57:22 -0400

The VA system has served millions of veterans for decades. The fact that many VA employees can't be fired is the probably cause of the lack of care we're seeing today. I've had a claim in for type two diabetes, and kidney failure for over 4 years. It wasn't until I went to my Congressmen's office that I got any response from the VA. If the problem is a lack of staff, than it has to be addressed. If its simply a clean out of bad apples, that is what has to be done. I know I'm treated very well in any VA office I go into. I don't think its the people, as much as the administrators. I would suggest an investigation of the supervisors would be the best way to start.

Response by TSgt Mario Guajardo made Apr 23 at 2016 3:09 PM

TSgt Mario Guajardo — Sat, 23 Apr 2016 15:09:34 -0400

I went to a private provider of choice. They gave me a clean bill of health and they were completely wrong. The VA specialist knew exactly what my problem was when I described symptoms. I had surgery at the VA hospital and received excellent care. I will NOT go to the private sector provider EVER again. The notion that private sector providers are the better choice was NOT my experience.

Response by MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow made Apr 25 at 2016 6:48 PM

MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow — Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:48:15 -0400

I'm not sure doing away with the VA is a viable solution. Allowing Vets to go to a civilian Doctor of their choice would be acceptable; or allowing them to enroll in Tri-Care would be a better option.

Response by SN Jeff Mckeown made May 1 at 2016 11:02 AM

SN Jeff Mckeown — Sun, 01 May 2016 11:02:53 -0400

I receive excellent service at the VA facilities I go to. Im not a damn prima donna looking to be served first thinking im better than anyone else and I also understand the principles of triage. I think getting rid of the VA hospital system is idiocy.

Response by SrA Greg Hardin made May 5 at 2016 1:04 PM

SrA Greg Hardin — Thu, 05 May 2016 13:04:00 -0400

No, this is the worst thing I have heard. I was a R.N. for 13 years and current 100% service connected wounded Veteran. Our wounded veterans are a special group of people who require different considerations. The private sector is not prepared to deal with this. I excelled in Psyche nursing. If we give this up to the private sector you will hear more veteran complaints than you can imagine. In many cases the healthcare workers at the V.A. are dedicated to our vets which would not be the case with the private sector. Ask people who would know!!!

Response by SGT Frederick Beckett made May 12 at 2016 5:23 PM

SGT Frederick Beckett — Thu, 12 May 2016 17:23:08 -0400

No, I have suggested in this forum before that the VA should be used for service-incurred injuries, which they are equipped to handle and the other Veterans needs could be handled by physicians in a manner similar to Medicare. Those injuries from wounds or incidents while on duty are and should be treated differently than respiratory problems, flu, or other medical needs.

Response by SPC Daniel Purtill made May 17 at 2016 12:46 PM

SPC Daniel Purtill — Tue, 17 May 2016 12:46:21 -0400

I worked on an ambulance in the 1970 to 80s in Michigan. We would transport vets to VA hospitals and they treated the vets with disinterest and we were told we were a day early or day late yet the paper work we had showed the right date. Seems nothing much as changed.