What power do I have as an E3 to fix this E2?

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:32:13 -0400

Last AT, we had this brand new Private joining our Battery. We had this problem with his MOS being phased out. So our 1sgt placed him with diffrent sections. From rader, to the gun line, then to my section. Supply. My battle buddy from rader told me he was a Charlie Foxtrot and explained to me that this private is always on his doggone phone. I found out this to be true when I gave him a lesson on tearing down Mk. 19, M2, M9, and even PMCS the LMTV. Every step I explained, I would look at him to make sure he understand. Instead he is texting this girl just so he can have a one night thing. My enacting supply sergeant even caught him walking with his phone and gave him a talk. What power am I allowed to utilize to fix this situation without escalating this to the next level? I tried calmly talking to him saying "if you want to stay off the shit detail then stay off the phone" but he told me to mind my own business. Am I allowed to tear him to pieces or is that a NCO thing only? How about a consoling statement? Can I make him push or do I need to get down with him like my buddies keep telling me?

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 6:35 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:35:00 -0400

Respect is the only thing, and counselings

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made Jul 2 at 2015 6:35 PM

SFC Everett Oliver — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:35:12 -0400

I would suggest you talk with your NCO's about the problem. Anything you do on your own can and probably will make things worse.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jul 2 at 2015 6:42 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:42:41 -0400

PFC Private RallyPoint Member that is a tough one. I know what I would have done and did do when I was PV2 in Basic Training and I had a squad leader causing the platoon trouble with the DIs, but that was a different time. I definitely don't want to give you direction and advice that would get you into trouble. Here's my take on it. You have done everything you can do - you have talked to him and you have given him good advice. At this point you need to keep your hat on straight and continue to perform at the level you want to perform at and not let this "dirt bag" bring you down. In due time the right NCO or Section Sergeant will take this young man under their wing and fix his stuff. Hey, I was enlisted once, so I know a little something, but not as much as these great CSMs, SGMs, 1SGs, MSG, SFCs, SSGs, and SGTs out there in RP land. They probably have some better ideas. NCOs jump in and help this PFC! This is NCO business!

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jul 2 at 2015 6:48 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:48:28 -0400

The "power" you have depends on your level of assigned authority. If you have been assigned authority over this PV2 then you most certainly can write him a counseling statement. If your NCO's trust you with a position of leadership by placing you in charge then you are in charge. Most times, however, there are levels of authority that have been delegated. What I would suggest is that you ask your supervisor to give you a counseling, in writing, that explains your authority in detail. This will help you know your boundaries and will give you a great azimuth to navigate these tricky leadership waters.

Response by SFC(P) Jonathan P. made Jul 2 at 2015 6:50 PM

SFC(P) Jonathan P. — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:50:58 -0400

First thing is first, e1-e3 practically are the same thing so if your assuming smoking the soldier or even trying anything with in that nature then your wrong.

Secondly, it's a junior enlisted as a specialist or sgts, job to correct this matter I know it's annoying and it is disrespectful. But the truth be told not much you can do besides take it up the chain if he isn't listening to you then have others means of disciplinary actions taken. talk to his ncoic or his nco and have them handle it. Just avid getting your self in a situation over something that's out of your hands.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 6:59 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 18:59:51 -0400

This certainly made for an interesting read for an interesting situation. As for what authority you have over him, that all depends on what authority you were given over him. Were you placed as his immediate supervisor, or just had him handed to you to keep him occupied? If, you were placed as his immediate supervisor, then your authority is as this: You have tried talking with him, showing him, advising him....now it is time to start counseling him. Put it all in writing. Of course, find an NCO and ask for assistance on how to write a proper event oriented counseling form. There are also many examples you can find online. As his supervisor, as long as you continually counsel him on his performance, good and bad (although it would appear that it will be more bad), there is always that chance he may see the light when it is all put in writing. Especially when you put in those counseling sessions that his continued poor conduct and behavior can and will lead to negative actions (flagging and even possible removal from service). If he continues this poor behavior (and you have it all in writing), take those counseling forms to YOUR next immediate supervisor and explain the situation and show them the forms to show what you have done to try and correct the errors of his ways. If, by some chance, there is a no joy with your immediate NCO, then you have the ability to go to the next NCO in your chain (as long as you inform your immediate of such actions). In the long run (and it may take some time), two courses of action will happen....either the kid gets his head out of his fourth point of contact or he is booted from service. As for making him push, that is not always the answer. Find other corrective actions for him to perform. One of my favorites is essays. Having him do this (again, only if you are designated as his immediate supervisor), can possibly make him see the light by his own hand and enlighten you as to why he does the things he does, which could help you better guide him. I would also recommend that you do heed your friends advice and get on his level and find out why he is acting the way he does. It could very well be due to his MOS being phased out. And, this is something you can possibly work with in regards to helping him find another MOS that he is interested in and qualified to do. Regardless, put it all in writing. Now, if you are not the designated immediate supervisor, then your authority is extremely limited. If he is acting the fool and not doing any work, then document it all (and maybe get some pics/videos of him not pulling his weight), and then take that to your squad leader. Being told of another Soldiers inactions is one thing, being SHOWN the inactions definitely brings things to better light. Again, it all comes down to getting things in writing. I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor of yours.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 7:12 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 19:12:34 -0400

If you have already told him how wrong he is and you aren't in immediate authority over him then about all you can really do is bring it up to an NCO. If you ARE his immediate superior though, then I would recommend counseling him or assign him an essay or class to do about why it is wrong. Sometimes junior guys just won't listen and you have no choice but to involve the next highest authority.

Response by CPL Brian Clouser made Jul 2 at 2015 8:05 PM

CPL Brian Clouser — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:05:50 -0400

See what the your Company SOP is on cell phone. If the SOP are against them inform the SM. After that either you or your sergeant take his phone away from him or if you are in charge of him, put on all the shit detail you can-the dirtier the better. If he hasn't learn yet, take it to the next step.
Now me personally, I would told him once to put it up or I would break it. I was known to be an ass at time lol

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 10:10 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 22:10:39 -0400

Not your problem, do what you need to do for yourself. If your leadership is already aware pf the problem like you say then it is firmly on their shoulders. Don't let the kid drag you down. You aren't getting paid to make those decisions or try to fix people.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jul 2 at 2015 11:38 PM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 23:38:55 -0400

Observe, brief, document and report. You've already tried to keep things at the lowest level, but it's obvious he has no respect for the uniform, the job or his peers. Talk with your supervisor and let him know what's going on. He may give you some advice and instructions to carry out or he could step in and handle the situation personally. Take these lessons to heart. They'll prepare you for when you become a supervisor.

Response by MSG Gerry Poe made Jul 3 at 2015 12:10 AM

MSG Gerry Poe — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 00:10:05 -0400

Be an outstanding peer and pull him aside. Give him some advice on military bearing. If that doesn't work, hopefully his first line leader will involve himself in the situation.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 8:45 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 08:45:18 -0400

Unfortunately you won't have much authority to do anything unless you are placed as his team leader or some position that merits that authority. At your level you can warn him of the regulations unit level and army wide of phone use and soldier requirements (Maintaining competencies in basic tasks) and advise him that violating these obligations will force you to inform senior leadership.

Make him care or make some above him make him care.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 10:01 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:01:42 -0400

Peer pressure works better in a lot of cases. You don't have the authority to make someone "push" but you and your peers can exert a lot of peer pressure on him.

Response by PO3 Daniel Jones made Jul 3 at 2015 10:56 AM

PO3 Daniel Jones — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 10:56:08 -0400

Firstly you should never look at it as "fixing" someone. Generally it is not the lower rank service members problem more than the peer's and command structure's lack of proper training and remediation. Find out how you as a peer, even as a friend, can help that individual through the issue. Turn the task into something fun and rewarding if you have to. You don't always have to think inside the box. You will better yourself and those around you if you break out of the OODA loop. Asymmetric Warfare and Thinking, It’s not just for the “Other Guys.”

Try to train together, keeping in mind while you train of the OODA loop. The more you train, the more you practice, you can start removing Orient and Decide leaving only Observe and Act.

OODA Loop:
Observe The initial stimulus triggers a response.

For example, you are in a dark room and a TV set goes on unexpectedly. It gets your attention and you look in its’ direction – whats that?

Orient Identification of Stimulus

Oh, that’s the T.V. and that’s the Seinfield show.

Decide Decision to Act / Choice of Action

I’ve seen that episode – I’m going to change channels.

Action The physical act of carrying out the decision. You reach out and change the channel to another show.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 11:35 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:35:24 -0400

The answer to this depends on the culture of your unit. I've been assigned to infantry units that had a very strict interpretation of the rank structure and would routinely see PVTs and PV2s standing at parade rest for PFCs, and even saw on occasion PFCs smoking their lower ranking peers.

The fact that you have asked this question at all, whether you have any real authority to fix this soldier, implies to me that you do not come from a unit with this type of culture. This is one of those things where if you did have the power you would know it and be exercising that power.

Anyone can write a counseling statement, but what this problem soldiers NCO does with that 4857 is up to them. They can add it to the soldiers packet as is, ignore it, or redo the counseling themselves. Unless explicitly given to you by an NCO you do not have the authority to administer any kind of corrective training.

I can only recommend two things for you to do. First, go to the soldier in question and tell them in polite but firm terms that they are jacked up and need to fix themselves. From what you've said you've done this. If this fails to fix the problem then request a private one on one conversation with your first line supervisor and explain the situation. What that NCO does from there is ultimately their call, but you've done what you could and should take pride in your actions.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2015 2:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 03 Jul 2015 14:46:43 -0400

Prepare to be part of the E-4 mafia and "Accidently" break his phone.
OR
If he isn't screwing you over, let him be / throw him under the bus a few times..

It takes a lot to fix a dirt bag, more than you will have time to do during drill...

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jul 4 at 2015 1:13 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 04 Jul 2015 01:13:19 -0400

PFC Private RallyPoint Member ... only peer leadership... Unless you are in a position that grants you positional power (like team leader), you have none...

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jul 5 at 2015 12:19 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sun, 05 Jul 2015 12:19:35 -0400

There are several forms of counseling.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2015 9:17 PM

LCpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 Jul 2015 21:17:44 -0400

Depends on your unit, but more importantly. What was fine when I was a boot (ie hazing in any way they could imagine) is NJP-able this year.

If your command wants to coddle your boots, unless you don't care about getting in serious trouble, there's nothing you can do about it.

One of my boots didn't have his gear packed after his team leader had told him to for inspection. He told him he'd be back at x-hours to reinspect. When he came back, the boot was at the movies because his mom said, "you should do whatever you want to. The weekend is your time."

He got away with it. Something I would have gotten put on superman firewatch for and generally fucked with, he had no repercussions.

What they don't understand is that they're making these boots weak and basically sentencing them to death for the next conflict.

Whatever. I won't be here.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2015 12:27 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jul 2015 00:27:07 -0400

As several people have already said it depends on your unit and amount of delegated authority. The one thing I can tell you that hasn't been suggested is use YOUR phone against him: take pics and/or video and pass them onto your or his NCO's.
Either way, you're doing the right thing by trying to do something about him.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Jul 13 at 2015 7:53 PM

PFC Tuan Trang — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:53:18 -0400

The thing is most enlisted see thing are easier then basic and they just asume that it ok to talk on a phone and such, It best to talk to him/her in manner and ask if they use they phone on break, But best to let your NCO knows, We are all a team, but it more right to let nco handle it, we don't tell them to do push up or punish them just because he's a pricate and you a specialist.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Jul 13 at 2015 8:02 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:02:10 -0400

Perhaps the best tool in the leader's tool kit: Peer Pressure.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2015 6:14 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 25 Aug 2015 18:14:16 -0400

PFC,
First, you two are peers. Take him aside peer to peer and explain to him that you've noticed some decisions he's made that are not in line with how a soldier is supposed to operate. You're going to have to find a way to effectively communicate with this guy. Ten or so years ago you could have just engaged him with your fist for a little while and beaten the message into him. But that is not how the Army operates anymore, and in most units this action will result in you being subjected to UCMJ. So a physical conflict with this guy isn't in your interest. Or maybe it is if you think it is worth it. If he gives you a hard time, you privately bring the issues to your team lead, NCOIC, or OIC. Document the things you see that this soldier does or fails to do, and if it is consistent, provide that documentation to your leadership. They are the ones with the (power) authority and responsibility to correct this soldier's malfunction. In the interim, you take of yourself, perform at a higher standard, and try and remain a positive influence on the team. Be a leader, know your job, do the right thing, and kickass to advance your team and yourself.
-MSG Reeve

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 18 at 2015 11:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 23:03:01 -0400

You've done what you can. Actually, as a PFC, you've gone above & beyond, it sounds like. Kick it up to the NCOs and if they are worth their rank they'll work on him. Document his failings and keep a record, if necessary make sure others are ready to back you.

And quite frankly if you aren't in stripes in a couple years, something's wrong.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 4:40 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:40:59 -0400

Leave him be for now or until you have the power to change him otherwise. If it is directly effecting your work then i would say to take it to the next level.

Response by PFC Joe Scat made Nov 30 at 2015 4:29 AM

PFC Joe Scat — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 04:29:45 -0500

Write ups work wonders

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 9:15 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:15:45 -0400

How about you read the regulations and find out!

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Jun 7 at 2016 1:33 PM

PFC Zanie Young — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 13:33:37 -0400

That is a minefield I'd rather avoid... When I was in, PFCs were no different than the PV1 and PV2. Usually it was up to the NCO to deal with us (you know, the smoke sessions that sometimes involve the entire squad, or platoon). If that didn't work, it went through the chain of command. The best I can do for advice, from one PFC to another, is to pull him to the side and counsel the said PV2, as best as you could. Warn him that if he continues, you would have to take it to your squad or platoon leader to deal with him. Don't let him drag you down and don't worry about the backlash from your actions, you do your best and work for your own promotion. Privates are usually seen and never heard in the army, just do the right thing and you will go far.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2018 4:35 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Oct 2018 04:35:56 -0400

You definitely need to match & beat him at your rank, coming from an Infantry Standard so much has changed in the rest of the military...No one can drop you anymore if the punishment doesn't fit the crime, technically. If you have enough proof you could dismantle an entire Chain of Command on this basis. Everything is PERCEIVED, if it even blinks wrong in one eye you can get f**led over it. Where I come from even 1 rank up, you stand at Parade Rest, addressing by title etc...New Army, Counsel his ass, 6mos = Patterns of Misconduct, Chapter 13(para. 13-10 A.R. 635-200) General Other Than Honorable. Many other conditions & factors may apply, this is a very broad inquiry...Depending on Unit, yes you would have such Authority, Command Authority when given is irrefutable, regardless of rank. Unless cited in Relief for Cause in relation to which your Command is relevant.