What makes a better leader, one who has gone through their career without being in trouble, or one who has and has overcome it?

2015-04-10T12:55:27-04:00

I have heard strong arguments for both. A leader who has been on the straight and narrow and sets a great example, or one who has gotten in trouble, whether DUI, Article 15, whatever but over-came it. Who makes the better leader?

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Apr 10 at 2015 1:00 PM

2015-04-10T13:00:26-04:00

A leader who has been repaired has "been there" and "done that", and should cousel his/her subordinates accordingly. However, there will be times when subordinates just go ahead and do something stupid. Can't fix stupid, but a good leader CAN and SHOULD give that individual the chance to make things right with the people he/she let down.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Apr 10 at 2015 1:04 PM

2015-04-10T13:04:25-04:00

I don't see that either is better than the other. A) has learned from his mistakes(hopefully.)
B) Might just have a good head on his shoulder and see's things coming and steered clear of the issues. either way both can be great leaders!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 1:12 PM

2015-04-10T13:12:49-04:00

Knowing that after 48 years (with a minimum of remembering big portion of 43 of those) I know for fact that no one is perfect. So the premise of someone never making a mistake just elicit an image of someone so uptight and more concerned with looking good be it on paper, physically etc, than being strategic. I am pretty sure those senior Officers and NCO's know the type.

The most important thing of a leader is to learn, including from others, and try to make the best decision. Be it a short notice one, or an strategic one, and be able and open and tactically aware to adjust fire when needed, and to get the whole picture, of what is done at his level, below him, and above him so he can be more useful...

End of rant. Good question.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 10 at 2015 1:37 PM

2015-04-10T13:37:03-04:00

It takes all kinds. I know which I'd rather be. But I could follow either.

Response by CPT Bob Moore made Apr 10 at 2015 1:42 PM

2015-04-10T13:42:43-04:00

For me, it isn't whether someone has overcome trouble that makes them a good leader. It is how they take care of their people and how they learn from the good and bad in their past.

I think there are good and bad leaders that have "overcome" trouble, but sometimes it is how they view the entire process that matters.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Apr 10 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-04-10T13:49:40-04:00

You learn a hell of a lot by failing.

Sometimes failing gets you in trouble, sometimes it doesn't.

A great leader is one who learns. It doesn't matter if it's through their mistakes, other's mistakes, or just through just experience in general.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-04-10T15:16:57-04:00

Personally I feel either one can be a great leader, but reading this post I instantly thought of a chief I worked for a few years ago. He was the best chief I have worked for more in my career. His focus was on his people, and he truly cared about them and their well-being. Talking to this chief one day, he informed me that as a young airman he had messed up and almost got booted out for his actions. He had received and Article 15 as well as numerous LOC's and LOR's in his younger days. He overcame these things, and became a stronger leader because of it. His experiences have enabled him to be more knowledgeable when it comes to giving advice to those making similar mistakes. I cannot say that leaders who have never been in trouble would not be as effective, however they do not have the first hand experiences with it.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Apr 10 at 2015 3:30 PM

2015-04-10T15:30:25-04:00

Back in the days when living in the barracks was a prison sentence, I got a summarized Art 15 for having my girlfriend in the barracks. I went on to thrive in the military, despite my despicable crime, and I appreciate the 2nd chance.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Apr 10 at 2015 3:30 PM

2015-04-10T15:30:42-04:00

IMHO he or she who has made mistakes and learned from them make the best leaders. They have the personal knowledge gained from the experience and can better guide the younger more mistake prone soldiers.

Response by Sgt Adam Jennings made Apr 10 at 2015 4:03 PM

2015-04-10T16:03:53-04:00

I think you've narrowed it down to two categories that don't really define whether a leader is better or not.

SSG James J. PALMER IV hit the nail on the head, I couldn't have said it any better.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 10 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-04-10T16:58:31-04:00

There exists two kinds of trouble: 1. Criminal 2. Professional. Not many leaders survive the first one. The professional trouble is fighting for your troops, reporting the truth, not knowing how organizations work internally and externally, or inexperience. These you will most likely survive, and continue to make mistakes like this as long as nobody is hurt and the leader learns. It takes moral courage to speak the truth and face the consequences, a trait often leading to an ass chewing and sometimes the boss telling you that you did the right thing, but you just went about it a little wrong.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Apr 10 at 2015 7:58 PM

2015-04-10T19:58:46-04:00

A leader who learns from experience acquires personal growth. Failure and or punishment can be very humbling. Knowledge of these can help all.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 10 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-04-10T20:23:58-04:00

A saying that goes something like "calm seas don't make good sailors" comes to mind.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 8:41 PM

2015-04-10T20:41:11-04:00

One should always learn from adversity.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Apr 10 at 2015 8:51 PM

2015-04-10T20:51:02-04:00

- The answer depends upon what "get in trouble" means.
- If "trouble" means something that was illegal, unethical, or immoral then the leader's character has been compromised and the trust I would have in that leader irreparably harmed. The leader in this case should not be given the opportunity to "repair".
- If "trouble" means that the leader made a mistake that did not compromise his/her character then that leader should be given the opportunity to repair. This is how people learn generally.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 10 at 2015 8:54 PM

2015-04-10T20:54:59-04:00

A bump in the road truly introduces a person to their real self. Their calmness under fire is quite similar to a sailor that finds rough waters. A setback is failure only if one lets it become failure. If one rebounds, they are that much stronger and better off with their own personal life lesson

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Apr 10 at 2015 9:34 PM

2015-04-10T21:34:34-04:00

I would have to say both and everything in between. I use the 11 Army Leadership Values to define the good, bad and the ugly!

Know yourself and seek self-improvement — understand who you are, your values, priorities, strengths and weaknesses. Knowing yourself allows you to discover your strengths and weaknesses. Self-improvement is a process of sustaining strengths and overcoming weaknesses, thus increasing competence and the confidence people have in your leadership ability.

2.Be technically and tactically proficient — before leaders can lead effectively, they must have mastered the tasks required by the people they lead. In addition, leaders train their people to do their own jobs while understudying the leader so that they are prepared to replace the leader if necessary. Likewise, leaders must understudy their leader in the event they must assume those duties.

3.Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions — leading always involves responsibility. Leaders want people who can handle responsibility and help achieve goals. They expect others to take the initiative within their stated intent. When you see a problem or something that needs to be fixed, do not wait to be told to act. Organizational effectiveness depends upon having leaders at all levels that exercise initiative, are resourceful and take opportunities that will lead to goal accomplishment and business success. When leaders make mistakes, they accept just criticism and take corrective action. They do not avoid responsibility by placing the blame on someone else.

4.Set the example — people want and need their leaders to be role models. This is a heavy responsibility, but leaders have no choice. No aspect of leadership is more powerful. If leaders expect courage, responsibility, initiative, competence, commitment and integrity from their direct reports, they must demonstrate them. People will imitate a leader’s behavior. Leaders set high but attainable standards for performance and are willing to do what they require of their people. Leaders share hardships with their people and know that their personal example affects behavior more than any amount of instruction or form of discipline.

5.Know your people and look out for their welfare — it is not enough to know the names and birth dates of your people. You need to understand what motivates them and what is important to them. Commit time and effort to listen to and learn about them. Showing genuine concern for your people builds trust and respect for you as a leader. Telling your people you care about them has no meaning unless they see you demonstrating it. They assume that if you fail to care for them daily, you will fail them when the going gets tough.

6.Keep your people informed — people do best when they know why they are doing something. Individuals affect the bottom line results of companies by using initiative in the absence of instructions. Keeping people informed helps them make decisions and execute plans within your intent, encourages initiative, improves teamwork and enhances morale.

7.Ensure the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished — your people must understand what you want done, to what standard and by when. They need to know if you want a task accomplished in a specific way or how much leeway is allowed. Supervising lets you know if people understand your instructions; it shows your interest in them and in goal accomplishment. Over-supervision causes resentment while under-supervision causes frustration. When people are learning new tasks tell them what you want done and show them how. Let them try. Observe their performance. Reward performance that exceeds expectations; correct performance that does not. Determine the cause of the poor performance and take appropriate action. When you hold people accountable for their performance, they realize they are responsible for accomplishing goals as individuals and as teams.

8.Develop a sense of responsibility among your people — people feel a sense of pride and responsibility when they successfully accomplish a new task. Delegation indicates trust in people and encourages them to seek responsibility. Develop people by giving them challenges and opportunities that stretch them and more responsibility when they demonstrate they are ready. Their initiative will amaze you.

9.Train your people as a team — teamwork is becoming more and more crucial to achieving goals. Teamwork is possible only when people have trust and respect for their leader and for each other as competent professionals and see the importance of their contributions to the organization. Develop a team spirit among people to motivate them to perform willingly and confidently. Ensure that individuals know their roles and responsibilities within the team framework. Train and cross train people until they are confident in the team’s abilities.

10.Make sound and timely decisions — leaders must assess situations rapidly and make sound decisions. They need to know when to make decisions themselves, when to consult with people before deciding and when to delegate the decision. Leaders must know the factors to consider when deciding how, when and if to make decisions. Good decisions made at the right time are better than the best decisions made too late. Do not delay or try to avoid a decision when one is necessary. Indecisive leaders create hesitancy, loss of confidence and confusion. Leaders must anticipate and reason under the most trying conditions and quickly decide what actions to take. Gather essential information before making decisions. Announce decisions in time for people to react.

11.Employ your work unit in accordance with its capabilities — leaders must know their work unit’s capabilities and limitations. People gain satisfaction from performing tasks that are reasonable and challenging but are frustrated if tasks are too easy, unrealistic or unattainable. If the task assigned is one that people have not been trained to do, failure is very likely to result.

http://www.academyleadership.com/news/201406.asp

Academy Leadership | News

Back in the summer of 1985 when I first entered West Point, there were many pieces of "knowledge" that the New Cadets (incoming freshman or plebes) were required to learn and be able to repeat verbatim on demand to any upper classmen that inquired. It required hours of studying and memorization. It took self-discipline to remember them word-for-word and then confidence to repeat them under pressure when asked. The first week these bits of...

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Apr 10 at 2015 11:53 PM

2015-04-10T23:53:08-04:00

How about a little bit of both....how do you know the experience of pulling KP or guard duty or CQ or Courtesy Patrol, without actually doing it? Now, there are occasions where rehab is not and ought not be an option, when the behavior is so terribly wrong that it is a waste of time for all involved.

While you can learn through associated experiences - others sharing their experiences with you, actually putting boots on the ground and walking the walk, going thru the suck is different than reading about in a book laden with dust.

As a survivor of a few Article 15s in my past (by the way, I felt that I only deserved one of them...!), I lived the extra duty that felt like it went on for months and months, I know how much it sucks. Going through the experience makes it more personable to me during the Article 15 proceedings, so I understand the challenges the Soldier may face before hand. It sucks, but you know what, it's supposed to....you do the crime, now it's time for you to do the time!

Response by 1LT Brian Yang made Apr 11 at 2015 12:43 AM

2015-04-11T00:43:40-04:00

I use to tell my soldiers that I would never trust someone that's never made a mistake. If you never make a mistake then you don't know how to learn or take criticism. If you never fail then you don't truly know how to win because you've never had to work for success.

Response by SSG Donald Mceuen made Apr 11 at 2015 8:32 AM

2015-04-11T08:32:08-04:00

For the must part i would go with the troop that has gotten thru some things as long as they are not violent misshape's . And i hope that i know both so to make a clear dession . The troop
that has had to clear up some things can use common sense to think thru issues

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-04-11T10:39:48-04:00

Depends on what he did.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2015 3:56 PM

2015-04-12T15:56:34-04:00

SSG James J. Palmer IV has definitely made a great contribution to the thread.

since it has sort of been limited there can be great arguments for both.

I believe that life is about overcoming adversities; this assists the Leader in understanding where someone could be coming from and help them more.

A Leader who has never done (Been Caught) doing anything incorrectly might have a "God Complex" and not have any type of understanding for poor decision making.

People make some silly decisions at times. Just because someone has not been exposed or has the ability to cover it up does not make them a better Leader.
This "No Tolerance" Military that we are currently in is totally unrealistic.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 10:11 PM

2015-04-27T22:11:30-04:00

How can you talk to someone about disciplinary issues if you've never been confronted with it yourself? It's easy to quote regulations and talk about what the black and white is but nothing beats true experience.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 22 at 2015 1:14 PM

2015-08-22T13:14:04-04:00

Colin Powell lost his pistol as a LT but he survived it and learned a lesson on accountability and gave him a sense of compassion.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 22 at 2015 1:23 PM

2015-08-22T13:23:22-04:00

Repaired. However, I caveat that answer with two factors:
1- For trouble/adversity, we are talking mistakes. We are not talking about conscious actions that are essentially criminal acts.
2- The "straight and narrow" leader can be outstanding. Just have to be careful about trying too hard about staying clean that strong leadership becomes dissuaded from doing their thing out of concern about blowback from same. The straight and narrow leader also has to realize that mistakes will be made and they can become teachable moments-not career Enders.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2015 4:07 PM

2015-09-22T16:07:27-04:00

SSG Robert Burns,
Someone who has had trial by fire.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2015 6:06 PM

2015-09-23T18:06:34-04:00

I like this question because it really is a tough call. I think the best "formula" might be a leader who got in some trouble before joining the service, but walks the straight and narrow while actually serving.

Regardless, while in service, your record better be squeaky clean. This uniform should represent the highest form of individual conduct. We laugh, but I like the fact that SGM yelled at me because I walked by a piece of trash. Now, I yell at Soldiers (and other Leaders) for not double-siding their printed documents.

The Army Values should be more than words on an Evaluation Report. I like the idea that if you mess up, you are done. It makes every choice meaningful. Do I risk drunk driving or do I value my career too much? Natural selection.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 7 at 2016 10:04 AM

2016-07-07T10:04:39-04:00

Depends on what "trouble" they got into. Some things you simply cannot recover from.

Response by SPC Matthew Cournoyer made Jul 7 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-07-07T11:49:20-04:00

I've had both excellent leaders and less than satisfactory leaders. One of the best leaders I had had no adverse actions over his career another excellent leader had one adverse action that resulted in his retirement. On the other had I had a leader that I recently found out became a specialist again after being a SSG twice. What is really crazy is that I learned something from all of them. there was a time where you didn't make E7 without having gotten an Art 15 at some point in your career, the theory was that they wanted to see how you overcame adversity. I'm sure you know that is no longer the climate in the army. Just because you haven't wrapped your career around a tree and had to figure out how to salvage it doesn't constitute a bad leader either. If you have been around the military for a minute you will see things happen to the people on your left and right, learn from them, their mistakes and their successes. The experience of keeping your life off the rocks and in open waters in a feat in and of itself.