What kind of Leader are you?

SSG David Kaelin — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:46:33 -0400

I've always said this.

There are two types of Leaders in the Army.

2. Those who read regulations and see what is authorized.
1. Those who read the regulations and see what is NOT authorized or what is prohibited.

The best LEADERS see what is authorized. The majority of turds see what is prohibited.

I made my second to last First Sergeant so angry that she teared up when I told her that she was a "Prohibitor". These people disgust me. Edit to add: She was later relieved of her duties along with the Commander because of the shifty, negligent and malignancy of their Command. (I have to add that before some other hasty non-thinker tells me that she was tearing up because she wanted to punch me. lol I was 6' 0" and about 210lbs and could bench 408lbs at the time and a fairly adept bar room brawler at the time. lol Fear of a 5' 4" 140lb female was not something that I had. I never feared my leadership. I either respected them or I did not. Fear did not enter the equation as I was damn good at my job.)

I always read DA and DOD regulations with an eye towards what I could get accomplished. Too many Army "leaders" look to stymie their people with prohibitions.

I abhor these people.

ADDED LATER:

To expound a bit...

There are leaders who look at AR 670-1. They look to see what one is authorized to wear. The reg says that when it's cold, you wear cold weather gear. Then you have those who look at it and say that a soldier can only wear gloves WITH the Field Jacket. This was way before all of the high speed cold weather gear that you guys have now.

There were the folks who swore that you could only wear the long sleeve PT shirt with sweat pants or the jacket with the pants. Then I had First Sergeants who used common sense and said PT shorts with Jacket or Long Sleeve Shirt was authorized because everyone knows knows that there is no such thing as a Leg Cold. People get Head Colds. People get Chest Colds. No one has ever got a cold from wearing shorts.

It's a commons sense thing to some extent. It's a fear thing to another extent. It's lazy leadership to some extent. And, yet, some seek to actively prohibit soldiers from enjoying any benefit that they did not have when they were young soldiers. It's an "if I had to suffer when I was a Private, so, too, should you" mentality.

There are other examples out there.

What's worse is when you have NCOs and Officers who do not know a regulation AND THEN expound upon what action or item is authorized or, worse, not authorized and hold to it simply because either "that's the way it's always been done" or they don't know and are afraid to ask and reveal their ignorance or laziness.

There are also the CSMs who run around correcting people in other units but are ignorant of the regulations that govern the units in which those people work. Riggers are authorized certain uniform items that many others are not. Females can wear their hair in a pony tail in certain uniforms.

When I was in Camp Scorpion, we had a CSM visit and yell at a Female Officers telling her that her ponytail was not authorized and that she needed to put her hair up. Well, he was wrong. Because of both the unit to which she was assigned, her duties as a combat advisor and the uniform she was wearing, that Female Lieutenant WAS authorized to wear her hair in a pony tail.

I've seen so much of this.

It is one of the things which drove me out of the Army after a fairly successful career.

I was a Staff Sergeant who had served as a PBO, a Platoon Sergeant, etc. I served in some unique units such as JSA in Korea, The Old Guard in Washington, D.C., the MFO or Multinational Force and Observers in the Sinai in Egypt. I had a fantastic career. Leadership, or lackthereof, drove me out. In part....in part. There were other things but horrid leadership pushed me over the edge.

Response by SFC Steven Borders made Jul 31 at 2020 6:55 PM

SFC Steven Borders — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 18:55:33 -0400

This may be odd but I read them to see what is and what is not authorized and or prohibited. Just seems weird that you would not know both. Just my thoughts though.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 31 at 2020 7:38 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:38:10 -0400

SSG David Kaelin I disagree with your conclusion but agree with the concept.
I was this guy "1. Those who read the regulations and see what is NOT authorized or what is prohibited"
And you say that was not the better leader...but what if I told you, regulations like laws tend to tell you what you can not do...so you read them, not do/allow that limited stuff and all else is fair game.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 31 at 2020 8:31 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 20:31:54 -0400

Sometimes there exists a gray area where judgement becomes the impetus for an action.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2020 9:58 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:58:44 -0400

No disagreement.

LandNav 101 —-> when faced with a speed bump (human or otherwise), shoot a better azimuth. As for the industrial side of the military industrial complex —- > some Stanford Hoover Institution Scholar Thomas Sowell-speak. Larry Sanders also weighed in on this one: *All rules subject to change, eligibility requirements may vary, some restrictions apply.*

Response by SSG David Kaelin made Jul 31 at 2020 10:01 PM

SSG David Kaelin — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:01:00 -0400

OK....let me edit or expound.

What I speak of is intent.

Of course, if one reads a regulation, one reads that this or that is authorized or that this or that is prohibited.

One SHOULD know both.

However, some "leaders" read regulations with the specific intent of denying their people something and/or to create a deficit or a net negative. Some read with the specific intent of seeing that which is authorized. Still others, those who are the best, read with an eye towards what is real with no intent to harm.

I have known many a "leader" who reads regulations specifically and/or who specifically translates regulatory guidance to prohibit people from doing and/or to keep themselves from having to put themselves out.

I apologize. Sometimes, I forget to fully explain as I think people will simply understand my intent.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2020 10:06 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:06:13 -0400

If those are the only two kinds of leaders you experienced in your career, consider yourself lucky.
There is a whole third class that are unaware of the regs, who must be frequently advised of what the reg says so that no one gets killed or charged.
This third group is bigger than you would think.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 31 at 2020 10:36 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:36:26 -0400

Some of the best Generals in our history to include Patton said the regulations were GUIDELINES, not commandments.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2020 11:09 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 23:09:43 -0400

Everything in regulation breaks down into 2 catagories. 1. Things you must do and 2. Things you can not do. Everything else is on the table to accomplish the mission.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Aug 1 at 2020 7:58 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 07:58:27 -0400

If your 1SG tiered up, she was no 1SG, unless of course she was struggling to hold back from kicking your behind. I respect your opinion, but defer with you. Regulations and policies are meant to read what is there, then applying them to your daily duties. It is literally Black and White.

Response by CPT Jim Kotva made Aug 1 at 2020 9:35 AM

CPT Jim Kotva — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 09:35:32 -0400

It was winter time we were taking an AFPT an E8 was giving an E5 grief for wearing his stocking cap not his patrol cap. This E8 threatened to write him up, I stepped in pulled the E8 to the side told him nothing reads he cannot wear that while outside in the winter time. He tried to counter what I told him, I stopped him end of conversation now I have to take an APFT by the way this E8 was on permanent profile and I am 6 years older than him still taking a full blown APFT. The E5 later on thanked me I told him not a problem keep up the good work you always do for me. Fast forward 8 years later I have a real asswipe that was driving a tow truck went into my front yard I came out said hey you fucked up my front yard I mean he really did a number it was winter time. He called the sheriff on me for giving him a ration of shit. Low and behold the sheriff comes this driver reads the sheriff the riot act about me. The sheriff looked at me then at the driver, told the tow truck driver he was my commanding officer in the Army one of the best officers I ever served under he saw my front yard gave the driver a ticket called the tow truck company the guy got fired. Before the sheriff left I told him thank you I just tried to do what was right when I was in the Army he told me we all knew that sir that is why we all respected you. Small World!!

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Aug 1 at 2020 10:51 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 10:51:04 -0400

In general the flying part of the Air Force is a prohibotor, to borrow your term SSG David Kaelin. For example see the difference between “do not descend below 300 feet AGL on low level training routes” or “minimum altitude on training routes is 300 feet AGL.” The USAF I flew with would have always opted for the first version. There were many, many such rules in the Cold War flying missions.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Aug 1 at 2020 12:03 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 12:03:54 -0400

The Services have a lot of regulations. During my time in, the Army had many more which dealt with how you looked, acted, and appeared to others. So many regulations that have little to do with the actual mission. My conclusion was over time, the Army, like the other Services, started using paper as a substitute for leadership. Based on my readings on this site over the past few years, it has only become worse. As I moved from E-1 to O-6, I got to observe how people at each level approached regulations. The best were those who were aware of the authorized, unauthorized, and most importantly, not put to paper. I became one of those. There's a bad sandtrap there to avoid. The worse officers were the "creative" ones. They'd do things to do things believing in their own hubris. They had no concept about the sack of sand they were carrying around and tossing into the gears. They also had no clue about how their decisions impacted their people or bosses. They were high maintenance. We have an ever increasing habit of when something goes wrong, we need to write a rule that fixes it. Problem is we violate the universal rule of you can't fix Stupid. Bottom line, I always showed my JOs what the advantages to know all three sides were and their responsibility to navigate wisely. You get more done while taking care of your people that way. And you bring more of them home alive.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 1 at 2020 11:26 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 01 Aug 2020 23:26:57 -0400

We are a force founded on the principles of duty, honor, integrity, and courage to shorten the point. Reading your post, it only tells me that you are only concern with what’s right and what you can accomplish. And are not conceded so much of what our left and right limits are. We must be well rounded leaders in order to know when people are stepping out of the lines and when they are not doing what’s allowed/expected of them.

There are vast different types of leaders out there. I for one, believe that we must and should always try our darndest to do what’s expected of us and of our subordinates and that’s doing the right thing while accomplishing the mission at the same time. I also believe that I must be aware of what my limitations are so that I know when not to cross that bridge and bring dishonor or discredit the United States.

Finally, this was a good read and I implore you to expand your leadership style to a more dynamic and with a focused approach.

Response by SGT Michael Waller made Aug 3 at 2020 3:42 PM

SGT Michael Waller — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 15:42:44 -0400

Not sure what’s worse lack of regulation knowledge or being absolutely consumed by them. When the rubber hits the road in combat I want someone who excels in TTP.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 3 at 2020 5:08 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 03 Aug 2020 17:08:54 -0400

I use the regulations for BOTH. If there is something I want to do I look for a way to do it which is best supported by a regulation pointing to the thing I want to do. If I want to avoid something then I will look for a reg that prohibits it, but in EVERYONE of those instances there is usually a WAIVER that is a work around the higher authority simply has to add to the risk assessment.

That's just administration.

In terms of my "leadership" I'm willing to defer to the more informed and those willing to do the heavy lifting. I would say I'm a BETA leader. Now, I have been known to put down other ALPHA's if they are leading us off a cliff, but generally if someone competent is willing to do it then I usually don't project myself to the position.

Things don't have to be done MY way, they just have to be DONE.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2020 11:23 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 23:23:45 -0400

A wise platoon sergeant told me it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission