What is your opinion on the Army Motorcycle Policy and regulations?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 13:44:54 -0500

I have just started riding again after 10 years, I used to ride dirt bikes. I have heard from many Motorcycle rider, experience and inexperienced, that there are two kinds of riders, those who have dropped their bikes and those who have not yet dropped their bike. I don't know if it is a Army wide policy or just a Fort Hood policy, but if you drop your bike for any reason (even if you drop it pushing it into your garage in your own driveway), you get grounded for three months or more before they will make a decision on what to do and then you have to go through the BRC again. I asked a friend of mine, a Marine what their policy is, I was told there really is no policy, just follow the rules of the state you are in. So what is your opinion the policy is? Are other Army Bases this strict, or is it just Fort Hood?
A post has been put out, and I question the same. If a motorcyclist must retake the BRC if they get into an accident, should it be the same for someone driving a car to take drivers training, weather it be their fault or not?
Update

I realize I may not have been clear in my post, I did not post exactly what happened because I did not feel was relavent and I wanted it to be short and to the point. I just wanted to get the basic how do you feel about policies. With some comments that have been made, Im thinking I should have just posted what happened.

So I am not at Hood anymore, when this incident happend, I was about 2 or 3 months from PCS. When I spoke on dropping it in your garage, it was just for example of a possible incident to get grounded for. I just started riding again, purchased a used bike, and still getting used to the controls. I was in a half empty parking lot at lunch, no cars driving around, I was driving about 2mph, I started to turn one way and decided I didn't want to go that way, stalled the bike; since I was in a slight lean, it cause my bike to drop (first and only time since I started riding again). No property damage, the bike was not damaged, I was not injured. I was honest with my mentor about what happend, though nobody saw that I know of, he had to report it. An investigation was opened up, I was denied to see the BG CDR to state my case. I even have an email where my BN CDR said I can start riding again, and then he took it back. I was enrolled in the BRC at Hood, and someone kept cancelling my reservation. At this time I have been in about 10 years, I have never been to IG, and they wouldn't help me out. The rumor, what I hear from who I feel is a very reliable sources, is that the commanding III Corps General (during this time period) hates motorcycles and has made strict policy because so, and if one of the prior 3 Generals (who were motorcyle enthusiasts) were still in command, this very likely would be pretty much a life lesson. I think that clears things up a bit, I appologize for any misunderstanding.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Jan 14 at 2014 2:04 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 14:04:12 -0500

SPC(P) Bailey - Leave it to the US Army Combat Readiness/Safety Center to have all the answers to your questions. I suggest that you take a look at the page and see what you can find out there. Along with that, you should research through your unit Safety Officer what the "additional" safety measures that have been directed by your unit/installation. Good luck riding!!!

https://safety.army.mil/mmp/

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 14 at 2014 4:07 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:07:30 -0500

As with most Army policies and all zero tolerance policies this ignores leaders and the situation the Soldier was in and the decisions the Soldier made. You can do everything right and still have an accident. My guess is the CG does not have a bike.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 19 at 2014 3:12 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:12:02 -0500

Every commander can make their own rules. Most installations have a "motorcycle mentorship program" policy letter or something similar. A lot of brigades, some battalions, and very few company sized elements have their own policy letters that are more stringent than the post policy.

Check with the motorcycle mentor in your unit (usually someone that does the TCLOCS inspection) to get all the resources.

Now, if that (about dropping the bike) is true, then I am going to openly support command decision and quietly shake my head.
Fort Lee is relatively reasonable on their motorcycle safety policy. My unit has its own and more strict policy. One of the elements is a full body picture of the rider wearing all PPE alongside with a counseling, a memorandum, copies of all documentation, within (more stringent) dates for BRC, etc. I tell the students to just leave their bikes at their respective duty stations.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 10:46 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2014 22:46:54 -0400

I ride a 250 CC dirt bike ( not street legal) as far as my unit is concerned as long as I have a counseling statement about wearing the appropriate safety gear and a commanders interview from my company commander I'm good to go. Basically If it has lights and turn signals on it you have to have the Motorcycle safety course. Most of my riding is on trails in southeast Ga.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 10:22 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 22:22:30 -0400

I will be the first to admit that until I got my bike, I just made rules that sounded good. Lesson learned on my part. I am too very confused that each command or each post has different rules and regulations. I would hope that the DOD would just say, here it is in black and white, don't add to it. Basic gear, long sleeve coat/jacket, reflective gear, helmet, gloves and eye pro. No need to go beyond that. As for the other part of the question, as stated above, make the best decision and when they do "punish" you would be a good time to help the non educated better enforce good rules.

Response by SSG Zachery Mitchell made Mar 22 at 2014 10:34 PM

SSG Zachery Mitchell — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 22:34:36 -0400

Like previously stated, get in contact with your unit motorcycle mentor. He/she should have the most up to date policy letters and information in regards to riding your bike. I think grounding someone for 3 months for dropping their bike is a bit ridiculous. Sometimes it's way out of your control. Like you said, there is two types of riders, those who have dropped their bike before, and those who will drop their bike. I have even added a third group when I was mentor, those who will drop their bike again. Sometimes it's just unavoidable and the safer alternative. Hope contacting your mentor can clear it up for you. More so I hope it's just a word of mouth policy and not an actual written policy. Just remember, always keep the rubber side down!

Response by SSG Oliver Mathews made Mar 26 at 2014 12:15 AM

SSG Oliver Mathews — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:15:50 -0400

I find this topic invigorating and frustrating all at the same time. I have logged over 30k miles on my motorcycles since i joined the military, I am currently the Assistant MMP Coordinator for my unit.

In the last 4 months we have had 4 incidents involving three riders. One was hit while making a legal left turn. The Faulted party ran a red light. And yes the rider is OK and is almost recovered.

Where the other three incidents involved two soldiers, and consisted of three single vehicle accidents. (One soldier dropped his twice within 90 days).

Ft Huachuca has a policy that requires anyone riding to wear the Army minimum with a 60 dollar reflective vest.

I believe that there is a certain amount of "Crap" or offenses that can take place prior to enforcing command suspension or force retraining. This goes for Motorcycles AND Cars.

Each first offense be it Speeding, single vehicle accident, or any other infraction of the law/regulation. A verbal discussion, maybe a counseling from the Mentor/NCO.

However if the second infraction occurs within lets say 90 days i can understand a unit revoking the privilege until retraining is completed. This should be done by the Mentor, as well as the soldiers NCO (If done while in a car the NCO should be prepared to provide that soldier with a class and a counseling statement.)

IF there is a third infraction retraining is a must. Regardless of being in a Car or on a Motorcycle.

That being said. Do i think that when i was walking my bike around my garage last week to make room for a project and it tipped over that i have just failed as a mentor or that i am less of a rider? No! Nor have i broken regulation. Why are you going to punish me for something that i did to my personal property? (Victory's tip over protection saved my @SS).

I admit that each base has alot of creative freedom when drawing up
Policies on items such as Motorcycles. But a full suspension of
priviliges for an OOPS like dropping your bike in the garage is
overboard.

I think that the army should endorse and help soldiers who want to become MSF Ride Coaches, or Driving Instructors/Master Drivers with the training to POVs as well as military vehicles.

At which point units can provide training opportunities and retraining alot easier. The MSF Ride Coach class can cost upwards of 1000 dollars.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Mar 26 at 2014 12:36 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:36:05 -0400

There are changes on the street that do not require reflective materials (big Army policies) however, as mentioned before the local commander has the option (and responsibility) to make change which best protects his forces.

My personal opinion and I am a strong believer that those that ride (or have a background of riding) dirt bikes/off road riding have a much better chance of riding and surviving the challenges on the street whether those challenges are debris or other drivers.

I really don't care what you think about the USMC however, my brother in the Corps have got this right and we can stand to learn a lot from their motorcycle riders program which beginners start off road (on dirtbikes). It makes sense, dirtbikes and lighter, less costly to repair and much easier for a novice rider to handle. You will also face (and be able to conquer) many more obstacles on a dirtbike (e.g. RMZ 450F) than a Hayabusa or Street Glide Special.

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Response by SFC Billy Bason made Mar 26 at 2014 12:52 AM

SFC Billy Bason — Wed, 26 Mar 2014 00:52:39 -0400

Post rules are strict and strictly enforced...most anywhere you go. I am an avid rider. As a Senior NCO, before retiring, I was constantly giving safety briefs and whatnot. One of the reasons the Army is so hell bent on motorcycle safety is because, many troops come back from a deployment and first thing they do is buy a bike. There's been plenty of research into the reasons why troops buy bikes.

Most of us who've deployed have seen some "exciting" days in theater. We get hopped up during the excitement. Apparently, according to studies, we come back and seek out a similar thrill. Bikes provide that thrill. Anywho, long story short, the young troops purchase these bikes and hit the streets. They, at one point, were getting killed quite frequently due to lack of experience and lack of respect for biking in general. It was during that point in time that the Safety courses were implemented with strict enforcement.

You know the Army...a troop can't manage or conduct themselves properly, so policies and chain of command will do it for them. Underpaid baby sitting is what it amounts to. As a rider, I feel that the military version of PPE is a tad overkill, but then again, I'm not the one who has to call Battalion in the wee hours of the morning and explain that I lost a young troop to sheer stupidity.

It is what it is...the last time I reviewed the information, motorcycle deaths had reduced, so there's something positive to be said for the Army policy. I always managed to follow post rules without issue....however, i was turned away at the gate a couple times for not wearing a DOT approved helmet, another time I was turned away for not having gloves, and a final time for not having over the ankle boots...while in civilian attire. The PT belt is not the same thing at a reflective vest or jacket. ;) Rules is rules as they say. Entire point being that equipment and bikes can be replaced...lives can't. One life lost when something could have been done to mitigate that loss, is one too many.

If it were up to me, I'd take a simpler approach...bubble wrap all the known knuckleheads in the Company together so that they can't possibly harm themselves or anyone else and let the normal, responsible Joes live their lives.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2014 10:54 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jun 2014 22:54:16 -0400

I believe the Army should enforce soldiers to abide by the laws of the road while off post. It doesn't matter if you are in a vehicle or on a motorcycle. Do what the law requires. I can understand the Army dictating additional safety precautions on post.
I also believe that if I have to wear a PT vest on my motorcycle then vehicle driver's should have them affixed to the exterior of their cars/trucks so I can see them better.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Oct 14 at 2014 4:30 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Tue, 14 Oct 2014 16:30:24 -0400

Doesn't sound like a realistic policy, are you sure this is a Fort Hood policy or are other riders just spreading the rumor that there is? I would verify, dropping a motorcycle has nothing to do with riding. You don't need a motorcycle license to move or load a bike, and many soldiers on base buy them and then learn to ride.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 9:26 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Jun 2015 09:26:18 -0400

It must be definitely a Hood policy, here in europe we have no such policy anywhere cause I helped write the policy for a lot of places, sounds like you just got a hater in charge of you all. Trust me its not like that everywhere and don't let that discourage you from riding.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 5 at 2015 3:42 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 05 Aug 2015 15:42:59 -0400

My thoughts, and mine alone, if it was not a reportable incident to your insurance company, or to the state where it is registered to, nor was it a moving infraction on post, why would there be this really arcane way of restricting people? Dump your bike in the parking lot, wind blows it off the center stand (seen it), would you call for a police investigation if you were off post? Most likely not, I would like to think a post commander would have better things to do, if not maybe they should think of retiring?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 13 at 2016 11:10 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 23:10:35 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member " I don't know if it is a Army wide policy or just a Fort Hood policy, but if you drop your bike for any reason (even if you drop it pushing it into your garage in your own driveway), you get grounded for three months or more before they will make a decision on what to do and then you have to go through the BRC again."

So just a little insight into your several year old post I just happened upon.

While I cant comment on what you, your unit experienced with a delay in crash review... I can say, for absolute certainty, when you posted this 2014 the policy was if you crashed you were required to report it, and not ride again until a review was done.. the review, done by the local commander / leader in your chain of command and must be done within 7 days// the 1st 05 in your CofC must interview the Sm and crash before the rider may ride again.. there is no time limit.. it can be done the same day, next week or 4 weeks.. if a Unit LTC is delaying the interview....that's a local issue to be dealt woith. It is neither a policy or expectations from higher to delay the review.. in fact just the opposite,,, it was encouraged to interview the SM as soon as possible.
The AAR would later be briefed to the 1st O6 in the chain of command ... but it was not a requirement to ride again..
There is no 3 months or more delay.. unless your lower level, local commander O5 is delaying the process.
I sat many dozens of these reviews along with 1CD safety, and the ADCM, ADCS and chief of staff monthly.
Rarely was a SM required to do more than a check ride with the unit motorcycle mentore before they could return to riding. That means when we sat a review on Tuesday... less than 30 days post reported accident the rider could have been back on the bike already by then...unless the local commander was stalling. If its longer than that, there was criminal activity involved in the crash or the unit is causing a delay.
DOD policy
http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/605504p.pdf
Fort Hood Motorcycle safety policy
http://www.hood.army.mil/leaders/policies/Corps/new/5_Motorcycle_Safety.pdf

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 11 at 2018 11:51 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Nov 2018 11:51:53 -0500

BRC only needs to be taken once, ever. If the commander feels retraining is required then there are refresher courses. The refresher courses are required after 180 day deployment.
The Army regulations in AR 385-10, arent that bad. It's the installations and units that make riding such a pain. For example, why do I need to show my BRC card when I come through a gate? POV drivers arent showing their accident avoidance card. Some posts still require reflective vests while most dont. When 3rd ID was still on Benning, you did not have to wear anything reflective on post, unless you rode on Kelley hill.
No one has actual numbers to back up their policies. How many accidents vs injuries. They look at national highway administration numbers, but those do not account for a lot of variables. So they look at old, incomplete data and create archaic policies that in the end, dont actually make anyone safer or ride like a responsible adult unless the rider wishes to.

Response by SSG Byron Howard Sr made Nov 11 at 2018 2:32 PM

SSG Byron Howard Sr — Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:32:29 -0500

I went to Korea and shipped my bike I was not supposed to ship it but did. When I got there I found out why there was a BN policy that said no on in the BN could operate or ride on a 2 wheeled vechial. I used a letter of exception to policy in order to ride. That was because when the BN commander was there as a company commander 12 people died on the little 100 cc bikes in a year. I had no accidents or tickets my time there.

Response by SSG Byron Howard Sr made Nov 11 at 2018 2:36 PM

SSG Byron Howard Sr — Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:36:49 -0500

See if you can take the advanced course it won't hurt anything and you might learn something. I had to take it at two different post I learned something new each time and uncle sugar pays for it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2018 6:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Nov 2018 18:05:11 -0500

Any kind of safety training is good for any rider, and refresher too.