What is your opinion/experience on Female Soldiers in Combat?

2014-01-30T16:43:52-05:00

Lets hear it? Do you feel that Females in Combat are effective? Have you had experiences with them during Combat Good or Bad? Personally I have experienced both Good and Bad in Combat situations. Lets hear your thoughts and/or stories?

Response by CMC Robert Young made Jan 30 at 2014 4:51 PM

2014-01-30T16:51:09-05:00

<p>SSG, we don't have traditional combat arms units, but the Coast Guard allows females into all specialties and they frequently deploy to the Middle East theater with port security units along side Army MPs and Navy Security Forces. Reports are generally positive, and the females typically undertake and meet all job related qualifications includes certifying as gunners, crewmen, engineers, and coxswains on the 'go fast' security boats which is physically and mentally demanding. They also function at ECPs, and conduct patrols outside the wire with DOD assets.</p><p><br></p><p>My personal observation is that they are no different than males; they will perform if they're good people, and won't if they're not.</p>

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2014 5:04 PM

2014-01-30T17:04:12-05:00

<font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">
</font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">As a 1SG in combat my organization was organically all male
from the 82</font><sup><font size="2">nd </font></sup><font size="3">attached to the 1</font><sup><font size="2">st</font></sup><font size="3"> CAV and 4</font><sup><font size="2">th</font></sup><font size="3">
ID.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>While we were deployed I was given a
chemical platoon from Fort Hood.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>This
platoon had a good number of female Soldiers in it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>My mission did not change, but now the
mechanics of organization did.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>After assessing
the strengths and weaknesses of the platoon I was given I dispersed them
throughout my organization as our missions increased.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Two of my unit’s missions were to leave the
wire daily and maneuver around the streets of Baghdad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Sometimes the missions involved multiple
squads or even multiple times each squad went out.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Because of this I had female Soldiers in
turrets and also female SGTs in charge of convoys.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Out of all the stuff my unit endured and
reacted to while deployed we wouldn’t have been able to complete all the
tasks.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>The female Soldiers that I had
and were selected to be on squads that left the wire daily did a fantastic
job.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>All of my Soldiers organic to my
organization were steely eyed killers and they treated these new Soldiers as
equals and fought shoulder to shoulder with them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>It doesn’t matter what your gender is, what
matters is leadership.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A great leader
can find a way to accomplish the mission.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> 
</span>A great leader doesn’t discriminate against gender.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>They find a way to mold the team and inspire
mission success.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>A great leader is both
male and female!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span></font><font size="3">I have witnessed it and
I would take any highly trained and motivated Soldier on my team any day!!</font></font></font></p><font color="#000000" size="3" face="Times New Roman">

</font>

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 30 at 2014 5:08 PM

2014-01-30T17:08:39-05:00

Stop telling them they can't and they will stop proving you right.<div><br></div><div>This is a leadership issue. Let them know you believe in them and their ability to get the job done, and they will get the job done  as often and as well as any of your males.</div>

Response by Cpl John Davis made Jan 30 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-01-30T17:18:18-05:00

Absolutely no go. I had a lot of poor experiences with the FET team. I heard a decent statistic stating that one out of ten females can perform admirably in an infantry billet... That means that there is a 90% attrition rate of females! Men have a difficult enough time physically. <br>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2014 5:20 PM

2014-01-30T17:20:59-05:00

Gentlemen, <div><br></div><div>I am astonished and pleased to hear so many promising reports and positive assessments of women leadership and operators actively engaged in modern armed combat organizations.<div><br></div><div>This is so different from the role American women were permitted in the Vietnam conflict.</div><div><br></div><div>It is, however, consistent with performance of Israeli and Russian women in combat.</div><div><br></div><div>Warmest Regards, Sandy </div><div><br></div></div>

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2014 7:03 PM

2014-01-30T19:03:58-05:00

CPL Davis<div><br></div><div>I'm sorry that you had bad experiences with FETs, but where did you get your statistical data?  We don't have any females that are currently holding 11B slots so how can the attrition rate be 90%?  I  find it hard to believe that any MOS in the Army would have that high of an attrition rate!  </div>

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 30 at 2014 7:13 PM

2014-01-30T19:13:40-05:00

If females can meet the current standard then I see no problem. It is when you create a separate or lower standard that their credibility will come under fire. If they can hack it as is then I say start testing. 

Response by SSG Robert Blum made Jan 31 at 2014 3:44 AM

2014-01-31T03:44:17-05:00

SSG Ledbetter we have know each other a wile, never deployed together, but we are both in the MP Corps, by now we should be used to females in Combat, being a mixed gender MOS. As for my experiences yes there have been good and bad, but I can say the same for males. I would have to say the incompetence to outstanding ratio is the same per capita across the genders. The best Platoon leaders I have ever had have been female, as well as one of the best combat medics I have ever worked with. In the MP corps our sisters fight right beside us and have for some time now. They have proven themselves to this NCO.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 31 at 2014 7:55 AM

2014-01-31T07:55:43-05:00

I have to say that I am really astonished as to the controversy/discussion this has caused. Being in the MP Corps for some time now, I have found myself in combat with females quite a few times and never questioned their ability to perform effectively. Many of us consider ourselves to be "Multi Purpose" and this is evident in the fact that we can be attached to damn near any unit out there. For all intensive purposes, we are able to function in an infantry capacity (albeit with none of the specialized training). If females have always been allowed to perform an infantry mission while being an MP, why is it so shocking that they will be able to serve as an 11 series? Plain and simple, just like when DADT was repealed and everyone predicted all these supposed backlashes which never happened, let them show they can do it before saying they can't. I have seen many females I would have no problem going into combat with.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 11:32 AM

2014-02-09T11:32:39-05:00

SSG Ledbetter,<div><br></div><div>There has been females Platoon Leaders conducting Route Clearance and as Bridge Platoon Leaders. In the front of every patrol, CLP, even Named Operations there is a RCP.</div><div><br></div><div>I feel good about those Women conducting combat missions.</div><div><br></div><div>1SG Haro</div>

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 4 at 2014 9:50 PM

2014-04-04T21:50:18-04:00

Never in Combat, which is good, All I can comment on is Physical Fitness. While Attending Cryptologic Technician School the most Pull Up's I've ever seen done were done by a Marine and it wasn't a Male Marine. I was a Navy 5K Runner in DC and I usually finished third place behind my 2 female Lts. If I got my Ass in a Sling I would be grateful for any one those 3 Ladies to be with me.

Response by SSG Rodney Farrar made May 2 at 2014 12:27 AM

2014-05-02T00:27:02-04:00

my experience is that when you get orders to deploy 1 in 5 females will get pregnant the ones that do deploy do the job like the rest of us but given the fact of smaller and smaller unit strength this hurts the unit in the ability to count on the team built in training.

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made May 6 at 2014 4:18 PM

2014-05-06T16:18:39-04:00

Effectiveness in combat is not determined by gender. Effectiveness in combat, or any situation, is better judged by successful (and proficient) accomplishment of the mission.

There is nothing wrong with this question being posed as it opens the door for thoughts, opinions, and experiences to be shared.

On another note, I never understood the arguments about the validity or contribution of gender or MOS. I believe a more appropriate issue is the need for greater focus being placed on how to achieve at greater levels, the training and preparation to do so, and the overall efficiency (including BUDGET!) of operations in combat and in garrison. This must be achieved at all levels from top to bottom. We are already waist deep in "doing more with less" and moving deeper. Let's make the most of it. I do not have the answers or the specific courses of action, but I do know that is indeed the direction we should be headed.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 8:41 AM

2014-05-13T08:41:41-04:00

What’s your definition of "Combat"? Is it rolling up and down an MSR standing behind a 240B in the turret of a M1114 in Iraq, or is it Pork Chop Hill, or the Chosin Reservoir Campaign, Korea 1950, or the battle of the Hurtgen Forest in 1944? History shows us that high intensity combat against a trained and determined army is a horrible thing. The depravation, sacrifice, brutality, and horror is beyond comprehension for most, especially the politicians who make decisions regarding our force structure and training. Does anyone have any illusions on what fighting the Chinese or Russians would be like? What they would do to prisoners, male or female? It’s not that Female Soldiers couldn’t handle it, total war is barbaric; I’m saying in today’s Army, a lot of male soldiers couldn’t handle it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 3:35 PM

2014-05-13T15:35:34-04:00

I am a believer in equal opportunity. If you can hump a ruck, shoot straight, and complain about your job but still do it, you can watch my 6 regardless of your plumbing. So long as everyone is held to the SAME standards within the MOS. I have had limited opportunity (27 years of combat arms) to work with female soldiers other than on Operation Jump Start. I had my first female supervisor there. 1LT Tisha Thompson Air Force. She was squared away. So long as we realize that 'every' female isn't fit for 'every' job, we'll be fine. But then 'every' male isn't fit for every job either. (See above about same standards)

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 13 at 2014 3:18 PM

2014-06-13T15:18:17-04:00

Woman have more than proven themselves in combat in CS & CSS roles so I say let have it at.

Would love to see the look on BG Darby's face when the first woman dons a ranger tab!

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Jul 22 at 2014 10:07 AM

2014-07-22T10:07:32-04:00

I never had the fortune to serve with women in combat. Started my career as an Avionics tech and that is an MOS that women can do as easily as men, except when it came to lugging the heaviest radios around. In fact they seemed to do better at some jobs (soldering and instrument repair, for example) than their male counterparts.

Generally speaking, they had a different motivation and they weren't as career minded. And that wasn't just my observation... I once had a colonel tell me that he didn't treat women the same at NJP and was less likely to take a stripe from a woman because it didn't matter as much to them; they were more concerned about losing their liberty so he took that away from them instead.

I understood his logic but I still didn't think it was fair to the guys for them to be losing their stripes and getting set back in their careers if the same wasn't being done to the women. If you're going to treat them the same, then by all means treat them the same!

I honestly have no earthly idea why any woman would want to serve as a combat infantry soldier. Like it or not, they aren't as strong physically regardless of how strong they may be mentally.

Much of my career was spent on Navy bases and I rubbed elbows with sailors on float. Heard all their stories... You would think deploying at sea would be something women could do as well as men. I remember when women in the Navy were arguing that they couldn't get promoted like the men who served on combat ships and submarines and they claimed it was unfair. So the Navy experimented and began putting women on surface warfare ships.

When women found out that it sucked being out to sea for months at a time, and that being out at sea meant you worked long hours and worked your ass off, it suddenly lost its appeal to a good many of them. Some would get pregnant on ship and have to be flown off. Women weren't just getting pregnant on ship; they were getting pregnant just to avoid deployment. This put a strain on the detailers as well because oft times they could not find a replacement and ships were going out with less than their full complement of crew. That put the burden on those doing the work because the mission hadn't changed and now you had fewer people doing it. I even observed this as a Marine with squadrons rotating on overseas deployments.

About that same time, in the Marine Corps, women wanted to be crew chiefs and door gunners on helicopters and initially they weren't allowed, but Congress overrode the judgment of the Marine Corps leadership and forced their hand. From my observation, the women seemed like they wanted to identify with being one of the guys till the shit hit the fan and then they became one of the girls again. All of a sudden they found excuses to not do what they said they wanted to do. Even in Avionics, they didn't like carrying the heavy radios and would ask others to do it for them... and of course, still being men, we obliged. But Avionics isn't a combat MOS. What if Suzy had to hump a mortar base plate and was passing it off to the guys. Is it fair to them?

If they are to truly do what the men do in combat, then they should be required to do the exact same obstacle course and make the same times that the men do. IF they can do that, I would be okay with it, but they aren't held to the same standards. In flight school, the women ran a different obstacle course with lower walls; the Marine Corps has a different physical fitness test for women and men.

As an aside, I was kind of a fitness freak and would typically score around 360 points on a PFT if you extrapolated for every pullup over 20, situp beyond 80, and minutes under 18 that I ran 3 miles in. (Was running in the low 16's to low 17's typically) So needless to say I didn't run into any women or very many men that could keep up with me. I got beat by a civilian woman once running the Fountain Valley 10K in California and try as I might to keep up with her she slowly pulled away. I ran it in 36 min. and she bested that time. By the time she crossed the finish line, I couldn't even see her. Later I found out she was a world class athlete LOL.

While there are women who can match men physically performing with their own body weight, I'd like to see them match a man carrying another 200 lb man running across a muddy field with rounds flying. There are so few women that could do this well, that I simply don't think it is worth the logistics of having to accommodate them... for those in front-line combat MOS's. You aren't going to find very many women in Delta Force or the Navy SEALS and my personal opinion is that you shouldn't. I'm not saying we shouldn't deploy women to combat theaters, but we don't need them in the front lines doing hand to hand combat with the men. It's not fair to them or those men whose lives will depend on them doing their jobs.

You ask most dependent wives what they think about their husband sharing a foxhole with Suzy and they'll tell you they don't want their husband getting killed because she wasn't keeping up and he was having to carry her load as well... besides the hanky panky that goes on when young men and women get together.

Bottom line: The military is not a social experiment and you need not dumb down the standards just to accommodate women. If they can meet the same exact high [not dumbed down!] standards that the men have to meet, and their lack of physical strength doesn't jeorpardize the mission, I'm okay with it. But if all of you are saying what you are out of a sense of Political Correctness, you're not being honest.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Oct 31 at 2014 6:26 PM

2014-10-31T18:26:48-04:00

All of the females that I ever had in my units downrange did a magnificent job. All of them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 6:50 PM

2014-10-31T18:50:23-04:00

If they can make the cut on the same standards, they've earned it. Key point....SAME STANDARDS.

The goal is winning in battle, not making everyone feel accepted.

Otherwise, I would like to sue the NFL for not letting me have that spot on the team because I was not born with equal physical ability as the 6'4' guy.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Dec 28 at 2014 11:33 AM

2014-12-28T11:33:44-05:00

I’ve been intrigued by this argument since leaving the Navy in 1968. I’ve always felt that woman in combat and aboard combat ships posses some challenging problems and is generally a bad idea.

Men and woman can, and do, work together very efficiently under many conditions and circumstances. It is successful done and mutually beneficial in a corporate environment. In civilian life I was a project engineer, and I worked with fellow female engineers, office managers, supervisors, and department managers; all were as capable as their male counterpart. Additionally, they often contributed by bringing a perspective us guys may have overlooked.

For many years the military had specific units made up of woman with woman commanders in an environment where the command structure requires gender specific segregation. The logic behind a certain level of segregation should be obvious; the military is generally made up of a male population of mostly single men.

I’ve always felt that the most fundamental problem to overcome with women in combat roles and aboard a war ship is sexual attraction. I believe that can become a source of weakness to US military units if full combat integration is ever achieved. Where men and women are put together, sex will follow. So will pregnancy; whether consensual, coerced, forced, or sold.

The unplanned pregnancy rate among active-duty women in the military is over 10%, and on the rise. Studies showing anywhere between 20 and 40 percent of servicewomen (experience) rape or attempted rape during their military career, and the vast majority don't report it. According to data from the DOD, there were between two and three sexual assaults for every 1,000 active duty soldiers, men and women, reported in 2011. So, lets not hide our head in the sand. This issue alone can pose a significant problem that otherwise is a non-issue in an all male combat role.

On the positive side! It is thought that historically women should not, and have not ever been in a combat role. However, throughout our most recent history many women have been injured flying aircraft or driving trucks hit by IED in support roles, and as a result there are many woman amputees. Women in combat roles are effective and they make good soldiers and sailors. Additionally, lets us not forget those heroic women who serve as nurses and doctors in war zones. They were not assigned to combat missions, however they were certainly in-direct combatants. But, at what price are you willing to defend a principle that logically says that women should not take the same combat role traditionally left to men?

I was assigned to an ATKRON in the mid 1960’s, which was carrier based. At that time no women were allowed to deploy aboard war ships. During these deployments the presences of any women aboard would have been a major distraction for the vast majority of us 19-24 year olds coping with raging hormones. For that reason alone woman aboard a war ship is STILL a bad idea.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 14 at 2015 12:47 AM

2015-04-14T00:47:04-04:00

Well, from my perspective, they are an essential and effective part of our team. But, many of my colleagues on RP don't consider what MPs, Engineers and others do in direct support of Maneuver to be actual combat. I do, however consider it combat. Women have been serving with distinction on my branch, and my units since I entered the Regiment in 1980.

I have experienced both good and bad with men in combat as well.

Do some reading and research on SGT Leigh Ann Hester, and her Silver Star, and the DSC that was awarded that day, and you tell me. If clearing counterattacking and near ambush, and clearing a trench-line is not combat, then I am not sure what is.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=16391

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Official website for U.S. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE

Response by SFC Edward English made Jul 30 at 2015 4:11 PM

2015-07-30T16:11:36-04:00

I've had experience with those in support units and a vast majority could not carry their weight and greatly slowed the pace of operations. I have been a Tank Commander on an M60A3 and cannot imagine having a female on the crew showering, breaking track, replacing road wheels, or ammo resupply. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 30 at 2015 6:54 PM

2015-07-30T18:54:13-04:00

We will shudder when they get sexually molested by the enemy and their heads cut off and carried like a trophy.