What is the recommended punishment for a soldier who is FTR while on Extra Duty?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 May 2018 03:15:31 -0400

Need help on the matter, SM gets a summarized art 15 for being FTR, 14 days extra duty, last day of his ED he is late to his timeline and misses movement to his Extra Duty location, I counsel him recommending him for a Field Grade for being FTR once again and I also counseled him on a emotional/spiritual level , trying to figure out the root of the problem. My Platoon SGT comes back to me and voices a concern, that the recommended punishment is too harsh and does not fit the crime , he wants me to do something lesser or something like a trial period , I cant find any regulation on the matter and I want to make sure that whatever I type its legal and legit, not something made up. Where should I be looking into? AR 27-10 is not helping me or maybe I'm reading over something.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 30 at 2018 3:35 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Wed, 30 May 2018 03:35:14 -0400

I would first hear the reason, some times life throws a curveball. if it is not a Life or death situation, then, in my counseling statement, I would recommend another Article 15, this time pushing for a field grade, then I would also recommend to the commander a flag and bar, and possible chapter. Other things I would recommend, if the Troop lives off post, putting the Troop in the barracks for the duration of his NJP, living off post is a privilege not a right, and Command can restrict the Troop to the barracks, and chow hall. Have the troop Accompanied by an NCO, (yeah I know this sucks for the NCO, but its one of the reasons we get paid), have the troop sign in at Either the SD desks 1594, or CQ's 1594 every hour. You can get creative.

One other thing - your PSG does not have to agree with your recommendation, he can rebut the recommendation when and if the counseling statement goes to the commander/1SG - a slap on the wrist in this instance does more harm then good IMHO, as the Troop should have already learned about screwing up when the Troop received the NJP, and it sends a signal to the other members of the platoon that the behavior is not only tolerated, but is no big deal.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made May 30 at 2018 5:51 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Wed, 30 May 2018 05:51:10 -0400

I would not jump from a summarized AR15 to a FG, summary is a non punitive corrective action. If he warrants and AR15 then my recommendation would be a Company Grade. First find out why the Soldier missed his duty call. If there are circumstances that would otherwise call for a staunch conversation or a written counseling then why not do that. The whole reason we have corrective processes in the military is to acknowledge issue for correcting and take action. To compound punishment over different issues, particularly those that may have contributing factors is not what it is all about. Do the crime, do the time! A FG is a show stopper for a Soldier, be sure that the crime (or issue) warrants ending a Soldiers career. Take all matters into consideration including the reasonable man theory. What would the average man Soldier had done in this Soldiers place. Thank you for your service.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2018 7:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 May 2018 07:05:54 -0400

Was any punishment from his last art 15 suspended?

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2018 7:22 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 May 2018 07:22:31 -0400

Counseling after counseling destroys morale and increases likelihood of being ftr. Ask him what is wrong. As a friend. Not as an NCO. Tell him you are there to help. It can make a world of difference.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2018 9:02 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 May 2018 09:02:30 -0400

You want to jump straight to a FG Article 15? Damn.

1) Was the last day of the SMs ED the ONLY day they were late? How late were they?
2) Did you find out why they were late? Was the reason given valid and justifiable?
3) Sure, apparently the initial Summarized was warranted, but you want to give this SM a 2 strike and you're out? Personally, if the being late on the last day for ED is an issue that is NOT related to the reason they got the Summarized in the first place, then how can you justify going straight to recommending a Field Grade? And, since I re-read the situation after my initial post, I see the two events are connected, but again how can you justify going from Summarized right to Field Grade?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 30 at 2018 5:20 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 May 2018 17:20:24 -0400

What was the original infraction that he was doing NJP for? If they are related and indicate a problem, then I think recommending another Company grade is warranted.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 30 at 2018 8:39 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 30 May 2018 20:39:24 -0400

Regs are in black and white- you can get hammered for any violation- what you get tho is decided by the Commander- he can down grade, or give less punishment. You can recommend all the way up to Court-martial- does not mean the CO will go along.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 31 at 2018 12:06 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 May 2018 00:06:07 -0400

alright so just from my own past Experience if you write a couseling and give him a corrective action and he doesnt follow it thats “ disobeying “ orders.. write another one.. a little more strict corrective action.. if that doesn’t work smoke him. Im not sure what the regs are for corrective pt now but if you cant do more than so many reps stretch the reps out nothin sayin you can make him hate his life.. put him in push up postion.. turn and talk to someone for five minutes or less depending on how “mean” you wanna be come back and say down make him hold it then say up.. one rep.. ive had this happen to me! I know how bad it sucks! I straightened up real quick! if he doesnt hes either super dumb or hes gonna see how far he can push you before you just dont care anymore and you give up

Response by MSG Tim Waychoff made May 31 at 2018 12:40 AM

MSG Tim Waychoff — Thu, 31 May 2018 00:40:03 -0400

In my opinion, as others have said, a Field Grade may be a bit of a drastic “next step.” The purpose of NJP is to retrain and rehabilitate a Soldier based on demonstrated performance deficiencies. The Summarized Art 15 seems like it was the result of progressive and increasing levels of effort to influence the proper behavior. A Company Grade seems like a solid possibility for the next step, but as has been mentioned, the PSG will need to assess the whole situation with you.

Creativity was mentioned here, and that can be a critical, challenging, and useful measure to correcting behavior deficiencies, for the Soldier who wants to improve and grow.

Examples (real world) I will share:

A Soldier was late, we (myself and another SSG) took away his Saturday. Every hour between 0700 and 1900, he was to report to one of us in a uniform determined by the other at check in. So, he reported to me at 0700 in APFU, at which time I informed him of the next uniform to report in, and I then called the other SSG to let him know what it would be. This continued until 1900 when we both met the Soldier at his room for a full ta-50 layout. That Soldier was never late again while he worked with us, and all of the Soldiers appreciated that it was not automatically some form of NJP for merely being late a couple of times.

Another Soldier (E4) called her boyfriend’s Cell phone while he was in formation. The Platoon Sergeant answered the phone for him, as it rang during his formation. I just so happened to be standing behind the formation at the time, because we had been at a range all day. Once he answered the phone, she (my Soldier) addressed the PSG by his first name. She figured it was alright, since she was calling her boyfriend’s personal Cell phone. He disagreed. I disagreed. She wound up standing outside the Club at Parade Rest for the lunch hours for the next three days, delivering the proper greeting of the day to all who entered. Naturally, she had a pistol belt and two full canteens, and had the opportunity to go and eat lunch when she was done, but the point was made and received, loud and clear.

One must simply ensure that the punishment addresses the behavior that needs to be corrected. This particular situation is probably past these types of measures though, and after figuring out why the Soldier was late for ED, a decision must be made. Consider the lasting effects of the proposed punishment, and the history of the Soldier, and proceed in concert with the Platoon Sergeant’s guidance.

Good luck, this is definitely a trying and challenging time/situation for a young NCO.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made May 31 at 2018 4:38 AM

SGT Robert Wager — Thu, 31 May 2018 04:38:15 -0400

Depends on the soldier you are trying to correct;
Is this soldier a "problem child"? Your ultimate goal should be to rehab the soldier and bring him back into the fold. Is he normally a star player but has a problem with being on time? You could possibly invest some of your time in making the soldier show up at the SDNCO's desk in different uniforms hourly for a couple of days (you should also show up and inspect not let the SDNCO do your job). I found that taking the time away from a soldier that was late almost always solved the problem of being late. I also liked making soldiers white reports about the importance of being on time. 500 handwritten words on timeliness... etc.

"Max em out John" type attitude will breed fear rather than respect in my opinion. Show the soldier that you are willing to invest your time in correcting his deficiencies. Have the soldier show up 1 hour before reporting time, be there yourself. If after you have invested all the resources that you can possibly think of to correct the problem then write all of that down and recommend UCMJ action. Keep your NCO support channel in the loop on what you are doing to rehab the soldier. Don't coddle the soldier but invest time and let the soldier know that your patience is not unlimited.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 2 at 2018 4:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 02 Jun 2018 16:31:12 -0400

I want to thank everyone that took the time to answer, we decided that giving him few days to show up on time and show positive work ethic would be enough to determine whether he was recommended or not, SM did very well everyday and proved us wrong. Now we are hoping that he stays on the right path and doesn't turn into the problem child. He served his ED with dignity and by allowing him the probation period and not jumping into more punishment his morale has noticeably improved. Again thanks everyone Backbone!

Response by LT Terry Lober made Dec 11 at 2018 12:03 PM

LT Terry Lober — Tue, 11 Dec 2018 12:03:40 -0500

Talk to your SJA. That is what they are there for.

Response by Maj John Bell made Dec 29 at 2018 4:55 AM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 04:55:11 -0500

I never saw a written policy on what is appropriate punishment and what is not (outside of "Hey, that is illegal"). It was like when you get one of those recipes that tells you to use spice to fit your taste. How many dishes do you cook for one person? If there are six people eating it, there are at least six opinions of how much spice is right.

1) Do you think the soldier needs the opportunity to seek employment in the civilian world? or is he salvageable?

2) Does the punishment your asking for lead to the answer to question 1)

3) Is the punishment your asking for consistent with similar cases in the recent history of the command?

4) Do your thoughts on questions 1) and 2) match up with the chain of command, up to but not including the convening authority. Woe unto him who brings a soldier to official punishment when the chain of command does not have its ducks in a row and presents a non-unified front. One of the few times in the Marine Corps my anger wasn't just play acting.

5) If the chain of command says go, can you present a well thought out, well articulated argument if the convening authority is skeptical. Now is the time to make sure you have not missed something. Blow it and it takes a long time to recover your lost reputation, up and down the chain of command.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Dec 29 at 2018 11:34 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 29 Dec 2018 11:34:12 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member The idea of ART 15 is the ability to modify behavior without the seriousness of Court marshal.
As this SM has chosen to not take advantage of the opportunity given him, were it me and my commander, it would be a cascade opportunity...next up a field grade with separation proceedings started at a stated goal of under honorable conditions, but full discloser continued acting out would earn an other then honorable or Court marshal and push for bad conduct discharge ,, And at this point its the SM's choice, but next time standing on the carpet, it would not be

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jul 15 at 2019 6:50 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 18:50:47 -0400

Make him report to the CQ to be logged in the morning and night for a month.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 13 at 2021 5:00 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 17:00:03 -0500

If it is essential there are formal consequences: Co Grade Article 15 and suspend the punishment for 6 months. Compelled compliance for 6 months of sheer quiet and tranquility. Don’t skip to FG.

Response by SPC Rick HUnt made Sep 26 at 2021 1:37 PM

SPC Rick HUnt — Sun, 26 Sep 2021 13:37:54 -0400

I would consider the outcome and actually verbally council him an leave it at that look, being Pete, Pete, & Repeat doesn't help the soldier, find the root cause an try to help there, what's his problem truly, booze? Pussy? Drugs? Gambling? That about covers the gauntlet of why he could be late. Your welcome I'm here all week