What is the reason that units request so much paperwork to take leave?

CPT Eric Diaz — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 11:27:53 -0400

The DA 31 is a relatively simple form to fill out in order to request leave. It is completely digital, and can be filled out, signed and submitted without printing it out until you need your own copy with control number. My question is why have Army units created leave packets that have to be submitted? What is the purpose of a cover sheet, a strip map, a fake flight itinerary (I say fake because I personally never purchase tickets until I am approved), POV inspection even if SM is flying, TRiPs report (which is also digital but need to print that out, LES, DUI counseling, last PT test, etc etc ad nauseam, and that is not even going into trying to take leave OCUNUS which is a whole other level of ridiculousness.

Someone smarter than me, please enlighten me as to why this is necessary.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2014 12:10 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 12:10:29 -0400

I was going to answer until I read your last sentence...

I have opinions, which probably reflect yours, But I would like to here the correct answer with PAO-approved command messages and relevant facts.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2014 2:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 14:41:32 -0400

Honestly Sir, its the Snowball rolling down the hill effect. I remember back in the stone age my leave packet was a 2 page locally generated form. I inputted all my information for the clerk to do the leave form. Name. rank, SSN, leave address, dates, and few other things minor things, my signature, my leaders signatures with "approval/disapproval" circled. I then stapled an LES to show current earned days and that's it. Got a DA31 typed up by the clerk returned to me a few days later for my signature and that's it. Don't worry they still managed to get lost before the date to sign out.

I just feel over the years every good idea fairy added a form to the packet and we get a monstrosity that we have today. There is no blanket requirement to have all the above items in the packet. I have been in units very recently that have gone away from all those useless forms and reverted back to a cover sheet/DA31/LES. Per senior leader guidance all the other forms are "kept at the platoon level" *wink*

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2014 8:38 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 20:38:38 -0400

CPT Eric Diaz I can't say I'm smarter than you, but I'll give it shot as to providing an explanation. BLUF: It's called CYA.

Too often in today's society, if something goes wrong with a Soldier, the media or congress is quick to blame the leadership. We didn't train the Soldier to know he shouldn't drive 15hrs right after a COB formation, we didn't counsel them on how it's not right to drink and drive, etc...So we have created a bureaucracy that exists just to process admin paperwork for the sake of providing evidence during the congressional inquiry that might follow. Perhaps if we (as a society) actually allow the Soldier to accept some individual responsibility, all this wouldn't be necessary.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2014 12:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:13:49 -0400

Sir

Every unit in the Army has the responsibility to kill as many trees as possible, and we will not fail in that mission

On the serious side, here in my unit we have to print a document called the action notice to post it in the schools our Soldiers go to, I have been trying to convince my leaders to just send this digitally instead of printing about 40 pages every day twice a day, but nobody wants to do it, so I just send my portion of the document to my Soldiers via email; and let's not talk about our DA31 process, we also have to include our AT Level 1 on every leave form on top of all those other documents

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Jul 9 at 2014 12:17 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 12:17:53 -0400

1SG Private RallyPoint Member is totally correct, it is nothing more than CYA. Think about it sir. The SM goes on leave, has a DUI, you know the first thing out of the command group is going to be "did the SM receive a DUI counseling". The LES is in there to prove the SM has the days required for the amount of leave he/she is taking. POV Inspection just in case the SM has a break down to or from the leave location or airport. It's all there, some times more than what is needed, to cover your six in case of any issue that comes up. While I agree with CPT Eric Diaz that it is a bit much, it's the nature of the beast.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jul 9 at 2014 6:04 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 18:04:42 -0400

It's actually more paperwork to take leave than it is to retire or ETS. Seems legit.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 9 at 2014 8:33 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 20:33:47 -0400

CYA...

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jul 9 at 2014 9:49 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 21:49:07 -0400

So that you will leave a paper trail long enough for them to find you.

ba-dum, dum!

Response by SPC Christopher Vaughn made Jul 9 at 2014 11:36 PM

SPC Christopher Vaughn — Wed, 09 Jul 2014 23:36:56 -0400

http://www.bamc.amedd.army.mil/departments/obgyn/perinatal/docs/DA-31.pdf

Digital DA Form 31, looks like some is trying, and from the obgyn medical side. I am sure there are other sites, this was the first hit on Google, so it must be popular.

I found the National Guard had far less paperwork for leave than when I was active. I think it has most to do with the national guards out look of "we know where he lives, most of us live next to him", where the Active duty is more like" This guy lives in a town I have never heard of in a state that's half way on the other side of the country." So Active Duty produces as much paperwork as possible, just in case something does happen...They are covered.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2014 3:32 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 15:32:59 -0400

I know that some units use it as a way to make sure that people maintain the MEDPROS status. We have to turn in a copy of our MEDPROS to show that we are green or we will not be able to take passes or leave.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2014 5:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Jul 2014 17:11:04 -0400

Everything you have mentioned this far is a for of someone covering their hind part. In other words we no longer care enough about one another to communicate and ensure those that we lead understand the dangers & obstacles envoled in taking vacation. Just think monthly counseling packets used to be done regularly because it was the job of the NCO! Nowadays unless 1sg turns the focus to them they don't get done! You are a captain ask to see an individual counseling packet and give them five or ten minutes to provide it and see for yourself!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2014 11:05 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Jul 2014 23:05:16 -0400

CPT Eric Diaz what is this thing you call leave? Why would anyone want to leave work? It seems crazy that they want all that information. I personally think people do it just because of a person I call the good idea fairy. Oh to ensure that everyone has a passing APFT within the year we will ask for it before leave and make them take it before they leave.

The thing I do not get is why they have brand new LTs fill out leave forms to report to BOLC. They do not have leave, they did not come from a station (AC) or if they are RC they are not taking leave as they are part-time prior to going to school. Yet I had to sign two of them so far and will have to do another one this September because of a silly requirement at the schoolhouse or post inprocessing. Yet they would not process the travel voucher and PPM for my LT to move down there. How does that make sense?

Side note: why do they ask for so much information such as 2A? Why does it matter if they are DMOSQ or where they live? Oh and fill out this matrix to see what level award you think they deserve....ummmmm.....isn't that already part of the 638 as the person recommending the award puts down what level award they are putting the person in for it. Just added stuff that really does not serve a purpose in my opinion.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 10:09 AM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 10:09:44 -0400

I will tell you why: plain and simple: The Army thinks that paperwork/online courses are a good replacement for mentorship, and leaders being in their Soldiers lives. Next question.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2014 2:46 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 14:46:16 -0400

All I can say is that I am not smarter than you. I can't figure out what all the paperwork is for either.

Response by TSgt William Bennett made Jul 14 at 2014 11:44 AM

TSgt William Bennett — Mon, 14 Jul 2014 11:44:38 -0400

The reason there is so much paperwork is CYA. CYA is a great motivator for the creation and implementation of increasingly complex and redundant red-tape as individuals deemed "responsible" by command for every incident that may possibly occur with their troop(s), attempt to cover every possible vector into their rectum that may be attempted by said command following an "incident."

Response by PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner made Jul 26 at 2014 9:28 PM

PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 21:28:25 -0400

They must have forgotten the Paper work reduction act of 1995!! I think the Marine Corps also does something like this too. Does the Navy do this also we would just fill out a leave request route it through the chain of command. No Itinerary or anything like that. Just where you were going and when you would be back.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:23 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 11:23:03 -0400

While I know it's a case of CYA, I also feel that these documents are a waste of time and resources. TRiPs is a joke. Soldiers know how to answer the questions to make the trip a low risk. Are you telling me that soldiers are going to take a break from driving every 2 hours on a trip? I know I'm not. I'm going to take breaks when I need to use the restroom, get gas, or feel tired. I am an adult and I should be held responsible if I cause an accident, not my CoC because they didn't make sure that I had the proper paperwork. The only document I can really see as necessary is the LES to show the approving authority that I actually have the vacation time.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 4 at 2014 11:36 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 04 Sep 2014 11:36:34 -0400

One simple acronym is the root motivation: CYA

The root cause is we do not take into consideration personal accountibility enough.

The next influence is the legal process. An example: if a Soldier never had a safety brief that covered DUI, he may get off punishment frrom a DUI conviction.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 17 at 2014 8:15 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:15:59 -0400

Including local risk assessment and POV inspection sheets???

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 8:16 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:16:39 -0400

I know in my unit they need the DA 31, LES, ERB, MEDPROS, WEAPONS CARD, PT CARD, iTrips/flight itinerary and since it's Korea, they need stuff for foreign travel too, from S2 and such.

Response by LT Jessica Kellogg made Sep 17 at 2014 8:19 PM

LT Jessica Kellogg — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:19:22 -0400

1 - if you're staying local
2 - if you're staying in country
3-4 - if you're traveling out of country

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Sep 17 at 2014 8:22 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:22:03 -0400

I voted 2-4, because it depends on rank/status/off duty activities.

Over 26, not doing any high risk activities. Just the leave form, and that isnt even a form, it is a website and all digital.

Under 26 and/or doing a high risk activity. 2. The leave form and the high risk activity form.

TDY/Assigned to a training location in student status. Depends on the location, but normally the leave form, high risk activity form and/or trip itinerary. So 1-3.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 17 at 2014 8:58 PM

SSG Pete Fleming — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 20:58:40 -0400

I love this whole 'paperless' society thing... I think we kill more trees in the digital age than we ever did before!

CW5 Sam Baker, don't forget everything in triplicate! Who remembers doing those on typewrites with carbon paper? At least now you have printer/scanners...

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Sep 17 at 2014 9:05 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Wed, 17 Sep 2014 21:05:35 -0400

It is not so much a matter of filling out forms. We really only need to fill out the DA-31 and do the TRiPs report if driving outside 250 miles, but our command has a requirement to provide our LES and/or our Flight Plan if we are flying. For me what became bothersome is the fact that my husband lives 300 miles away, so a couple of times a month I go home for the weekend. After 17 months of just driving home, a new deputy has decided I need a pass to go home. Fortunately, I'm only going home one more time before I retire.

Response by LTC Eric Udouj made Feb 27 at 2016 7:42 AM

LTC Eric Udouj — Sat, 27 Feb 2016 07:42:26 -0500

That paperwork drill is one of those items that a Commander has the chance to influence to take care of his/her soldiers through interpretation of the higher commander's guidance that usually can result in a paperwork drill that plays at insuring risks are covered but often could be done in a more effective way.
That said - the real paperwork is when you want to travel to another country when you go on leave. Many are often not aware just how much that might include when taking a vacation. To give you an example of how you end up with a 7 page Anti-terrorism Plan when visiting 3 countries - you have to abide by your higher command's policy, the policies of the GCC (each have a website to assist you), and then the Electronic Foreign Clearance Guide. You as an individual (not your unit) have to submit through the EFCG to each country and the GCC and Theater Army for approval. Best place to look first is the EFCG and figure out what all you must do and then walk it down the Christmas tree of requirements 2 months before you go.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 11:39 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:39:22 -0400

It's all about safety and accountability. If a Soldier is taking leave and plans on driving a substantial distance, I want to make sure that my vehicle is in proper working order. As leaders, we need to make sure that we at least have a timeline of what our Soldiers are doing should something happen. And if something does happen, then there may be a line of duty investigation, and the first thing that will be checked is the leave packet....the flight itinerary, the POV inspection, the TRiPs, etc. I hate turning in all of that stuff as well, but I do it every time, if not just to cover my Alpha Sierra Sierra. Just my opinion.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 24 at 2017 4:35 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 24 Jan 2017 16:35:45 -0500

I remember one time where I was stationed in Wuerzburg, Germany, and taking leave. I had to provide a risk assessment for the ride from Leighton Barracks to the train station....on a public bus.

Response by PFC Garry Tarvin made Feb 27 at 2019 9:14 PM

PFC Garry Tarvin — Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:14:55 -0500

I'm glad it was not this complicated back in the 80's