What is the first Navy Enlisted/NCO Professional Development course, and what is generally taught there?

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 07:07:40 -0400

Hello all, Army guy here. I've been researching professional development in the different branches for enlisted members. I'm looking to understand how the Navy handles NCO professional development. The Army has Basic Leader Course, Marines have a Corporals Course, Air Force has Airman Leadership School. All have basics of service, counseling, and so on. How is this in the Navy in this area?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2016 7:43 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 07:43:08 -0400

What happens is after you find out you are advanced to the next pay grade, your command will set up a time/day to do Petty Officer Indoc; the basis of how to learn to be a leader. After which, you are frocked (meaning you wear the rank but you will not be paid as of yet).
For E4-E6, we don't have a "school"; when you are an E7 or higher, you can elect to take a Leadership school (from my understanding). When you attain the rank of Petty Officer, your senior enlisted look differently at you. While you aren't doing grunt work majority of the time, they expect you to dish out the grunt work and deal with the complaining.

With counseling, are you talking about reprimanding or when we, as the "new" leader, needs assistance with a decision or to get an option from higher leadership? Since I've been a petty officer, my professional relationships with senior enlisted and officer has been very good; they have put a lot of trust into me and with what I can do with my job description. If I'm not able to assist, I do my best in researching a way for the task to be completed 150%.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made Oct 17 at 2016 8:53 AM

MGySgt James Forward — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 08:53:57 -0400

For the Corps: Corporals Course (E-4), Sergeant's Course (E-5), Career Course (E-6), Advanced Course (E-7), 1st Sergeants Course (Only First Sgts), Master Sergeant / 1st Sergeant Seminar (all E-8s) and the Master Gunnery Sergeant / Sergeant Major Symposium (all E-9s). Most demanding are the first four, if you don't do your PME you don't get promoted.
For the US Navy: the first real leadership step is to Chief, so that's when you start getting PME. Semper Fi.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2016 11:31 AM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 11:31:06 -0400

Definitely Petty Officer Indoc.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2016 2:57 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 17 Oct 2016 14:57:58 -0400

The course is officially referred to as the Petty Officer Selectee Leadership course. This is for Sailors advanced to E-4. There is also a course for E-5 through E-7. I have a copy of the facilitator material, let me know if this link doesn't work and we'll figure something else out.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/j80bvl2wlwtv4yc/AAD_hYzH59WmVX4WW-gt74bBa?dl=0

Edit: These courses are command facilitated. Every command does it a little differently in how when they conduct the course. For example some may conduct the course prior to results posting and conduct the course for all eligible Sailors, while others may wait till after results are out and conduct it only for those that were advanced.

Unfortunately, the quality of the training is completely dependent on the command conducting it. They used to be actual courses outside of the command that were two weeks long and had much more sustenance and value.

POSLC

Shared with Dropbox

Response by PO1 Jim Harvey made Oct 18 at 2016 11:23 AM

PO1 Jim Harvey — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:23:03 -0400

LMET (Leadership Management Effectiveness Training)

Response by PO2 Robert Cuminale made Oct 18 at 2016 11:40 AM

PO2 Robert Cuminale — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 11:40:06 -0400

I made E4 and never received any training.

Response by PO1 John East made Oct 18 at 2016 9:21 PM

PO1 John East — Tue, 18 Oct 2016 21:21:57 -0400

It was called junior lmet, or junior leadership, management education training taught the new E-4 what was expected of them

Response by MCPO Kurt Stauff made Oct 19 at 2016 1:21 AM

MCPO Kurt Stauff — Wed, 19 Oct 2016 01:21:44 -0400

It changed a lot and had various iterations from 1983 to 2012, when I retired as an MCPO (E9). When you picked up PO3 (E4), you went through a command-facilitated PO Indoc, which was usually week long and usually led by a group of PO1's (E6) from various rates. In addition to basic leadership, new petty officers will discuss values, discipline and Navy standards. The course was developed to educate Sailors in a variety of leadership-related subjects that will help build a foundation for future self-development.

Response by MCPO Tom Miller made Oct 20 at 2016 5:00 PM

MCPO Tom Miller — Thu, 20 Oct 2016 17:00:10 -0400

I think, of course my opinion, that naval leadership is strong in tradition and strict disciplinarian views of do or die or reason why concepts. Leadership correspondence courses were mandatory before basic advancement to Petty Officer! Inasmuchas, Naval rotation is not sedentary as your chain of command is rapidly changing and evaluating of members performances is constantly under new evaluation. Competition based on high competency and leadership basically never changes as advancement depends on testing of skill as well as leadership. Rating in job skills are also permanent in nature as you area rated in a particular skill group that follows you throughout your career such as a electronic technician, gunnery, engineering skill and so on. I attended the Chief Petty Officers academy just after making E-7 and although was given leadership instruction, I can say it wasn't a big improvement in my ability to lead as past emulating of others leaders was what I followed. I graduated at the top when I finished. The six weeks weren't easy and highly resembled basic training with constant humiliation and threat of dismissal if you failed, thusly ruining your career. Looked great in you jacket for advancement, but viewing my classmates, I could pick out who were the stronger leaders prior to graduation. I think consistency in leadership is the best development for future leaders with emphasis on competitional level of competence and leadership and rewarding those strongly in both areas! There is nothing worse than working for a politicican who gain advancement based on inferior evaluations and usuary. Leadership is so important throughout from the top down and for those to set a strong example for emulation to progress for the future. These PC developers can dismiss good leadership and replace it with complexed variations. Work for self improvement, pick your friends and not let them pick you, take care of your people and ensure they have support for improvement and most of all set the example!

Response by PO2 Adrian Richardson made Oct 27 at 2016 10:45 AM

PO2 Adrian Richardson — Thu, 27 Oct 2016 10:45:02 -0400

I serve with 2 branches,the Navy for 23 and the Nat Guard for 8 and I recently retired, As for the Navy back in 83 when I made E4, we had to go to POIC,Petty Officer Ind Class for 1 week of training. It taught us a lot on leadership,professionalism and respect of being a PO, but it doesn't stop there. Each step that you make in the ranks,shows that you earn that spot and respect to teach others who are coming behind you so that they will pass it along to the next sailor thats willing to make that goal.

Response by PO3 Chelisue Stevensdottir made Nov 13 at 2016 12:28 PM

PO3 Chelisue Stevensdottir — Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:28:06 -0500

Every promotion takes passing a course and exam and having appropriate marks on evals

Response by PO2 Luke Moskalski made Nov 16 at 2016 8:26 AM

PO2 Luke Moskalski — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:26:47 -0500

When I made E-5 I was sent to a leadership course on base in San Diego for a week

Response by PO2 Madison Barrett made Nov 16 at 2016 6:32 PM

PO2 Madison Barrett — Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:32:43 -0500

The first one I remember is the petty officer indoctrination course. It's for new E-4s. Teaches professional development, duties, responsibilities, chain-of-command, decision making, and leadership training.

Response by MCPO Rogers Macon made Nov 23 at 2016 1:03 PM

MCPO Rogers Macon — Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:03:10 -0500

LMET

Response by PO2 John Forzley made Dec 1 at 2016 10:25 AM

PO2 John Forzley — Thu, 01 Dec 2016 10:25:45 -0500

When I served there was a basic Petty Officer Indoctrination, but nothing really to develop true leadership skills except for senior petty officers. I knew of a couple of E-5 that enrolled in the sergeants course on the Marine Corps base.

Response by PO2 Luciano Alfaro made Mar 1 at 2017 10:26 AM

PO2 Luciano Alfaro — Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:26:27 -0500

So I know this is way late,
In the deployed navy there are things that make you more promotable for career advancement. When you make e-4 nothing is truly expected, you do Petty Officer Indoc, after that you wait until you can be up for promotion. If your evals have an EP, you are promotable one year early meaning you can make the jump from e-4 to e-5 in 2 years instead of 3. How you earn that EP can be different based on your command's needs (Volunteer for everything if you are looking to get an EP). If they need a diver and you volunteer, could look good and you get an EP. However there are more things that are necessary as well. With regards to Engineering, to make e-6 (can get an EP for this as well to make e-6 after 2 years at e-5) we have to get Work Center Supervisor, most get it at e-5 but some get it FOR e-5, you cannot get e-6 without it (And getting qualified for Senior-in-rate too, both requirements are from what I recall back when I was in, in 06 - 11) once you are up for e-7 (Same thing with EP) you have to sit boards to be promoted passed e-6 and it becomes more political (from what I heard). Each examination period (every 6 months) if you were up for advancement, you had to take the exam, regardless of want or needs of the navy. if you pass points go towards your promotion, certifications, some medals, and warfare insignia earn you points as well. If you are passed the threshold congrats you made rank. If you did not but passed the exam, you get PNA (Passed Not Advanced) points to carry to the next period. The threshold was determined based on need at that time for your rate. What you end up getting is high demand jobs promoting quickly (as fast as 6 years to e-7 (Hotrunner)) and low demand jobs barely promoting (They hit tenure and are forced out) The system is great for ensuring the low demand jobs have great leadership, but in higher demand fields you get some "less than best qualified" leaders which give you a love hate relationship with the navy as a whole. There are also what they call push button rates(I was in one), where you reenlist for rate based on high demand need for the navy. Because everyone does it it makes it impossible to make that pay grade by the traditional examination. So you end up getting this disproportionately high amount of individuals at a certain pay grade for certain rates. And if you desired to be career military would force you to reenlist to not hit tenure. (Tenure back then was 20 for an e5 and I believe 8 for an e4, I believe it went down in 2010 to 14 for e5 and 6 for e4 but I may be wrong).

Sources: Former Nuc ET2(SS), was career navy until my motorcycle accident, and now I'm out.

Response by PO2 Frank Ushler made Jul 11 at 2017 1:57 PM

PO2 Frank Ushler — Tue, 11 Jul 2017 13:57:40 -0400

Your performance evaluation by your division officer will tell if you are ready to step into your next pay grade and take responsibility for directing your men and women to do their jobs.You take written tests to show how prepared you are and are rated as to how hi you score in incraments of months you will be rated.I was A BM 2 in 19 1/2 months with two deferments with time in rate by my Captain as he thought I would be a good Petty Officer .

Response by PO2 Mike Roderos made Nov 19 at 2017 4:08 AM

PO2 Mike Roderos — Sun, 19 Nov 2017 04:08:08 -0500

Back in the day they had Leadership Continueums for each of the ranks from E5 and up. It was like, a one week course...but that was back in the day 17 years ago.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2018 4:21 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 May 2018 16:21:43 -0400

We go through PO or petty officer indoc when we are eligible for PO3 and if we make it, then you are frocked for almost up to nine months depending on how high your FMS or final multiple score which is based off of your evaluation score amd test score plus some other formulas anyway you wear and take the authority of the rank beofre you actually get paid so i guess its kinda like a trial by fire except you cant not get paid unless you screw uo amd go to mast dyring that time frame...

Response by PO2 Dale Simpson made Jun 5 at 2018 11:21 PM

PO2 Dale Simpson — Tue, 05 Jun 2018 23:21:07 -0400

When I became a 3rd class, I went through an informal training in our teletype room, my supervisor and some nonrate named Floyd, basically showed me what it was like when you have a "person" who just don't want to follow directions....learned a lot that day.....

Response by PO2 Dax Hall made Jun 7 at 2018 1:27 PM

PO2 Dax Hall — Thu, 07 Jun 2018 13:27:12 -0400

Its really up to your command to send you to Indoc. If you are in a mission essential billet they can forego sending you. I advanced to PO3 directly out of Rescue Swimmer school and PO2 while on det. But all Chiefs go to indoc for sure.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2018 3:22 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Jul 2018 15:22:47 -0400

The Coast Guard is essentially built like the Navy with some exceptions. The E-4’s get a small taste of professional development during A-school (a.k.a. AIT). CG members must be an E-3 (SN/FN) to attend A-school. When they graduate they’re automatically promoted to E-4 (PO3). These members will not be allow to test for E-5 (PO2) until they’ve attended a Leadership and Management School (LAMS) and completed other job and military competencies. When E-6’s (PO1) are notified they’re "above the cut" for E-7 (CPO), they’re automatically assigned a Chief Petty Officer’s Academy class attendance date. This is a mandatory 6-week resident course held in Petaluma, CA. Nearly all these members are frocked (wearing the rank but receiving none of the pay) on the day before their class attendance date. They start receiving the pay upon their official advancement date unless other circumstances arises (i.e. disciplinary). Senior Chiefs (E-8) must attend the Command Senior Enlisted Leadership (CSEL) course and be screened prior to being selected for a Command Cadre position. There’s only a handful of Command Senior Chief billets in the fleet. Most are at the E-9 (MCPO) rank for Command Master Chief. (Not all E-9s are Command Master Chiefs. Some aviation Master Chiefs are billeted as Leading Chief Petty Officers (LCPOs) at the biggest air stations mostly.) Some Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs compete to attend the Army’s Sergeant Major’s Academy in addition to all of the above. These members are usually checking the block to get as much professional development as possible for Gold Badge selection. Gold Badge Command Master Chiefs serves Area and District Commands (VADM-O9 and RADM-O8 level commands) and are more favorably considered for selection to Master Chief Petty Officer of the Coast Guard. Although, all E-9’s are solicited and any E-9 can apply to MCPO-CG.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Dec 18 at 2018 10:42 AM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Tue, 18 Dec 2018 10:42:51 -0500

Good luck. My son has been Navy for about 10 years, testing for CPO next month, and I'm not sure I still understand it. The big difference in both Officers and Enlisted is that their promotion system is not school based like the Army, so apparently the most important thing is to get all your "Quals" for your job and as much as you can for the next rank, then your evals and test scores determine if you go before the Board.
Most of the education system after A-School seems to be OJT, which also seems to vary in effectiveness between commands and commanders.