What is the best way to address a toxic leadership environment when it gets so bad that people might start killing themselves?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 19:12:12 -0400

If you look at my previous post you will see I’ve had a hard time with toxic leadership in my platoon, not just me but all the junior enlisted. I’m reaching out for help here. Because I know if something doesn’t happen that people are going to start killing them selves. We’ve talked to our first line all the way up to our Chaplin. Nothing changes. Nothing happens. The feeling of being trapped has set in and with being a rotational force in Korea we are quarantined. Our leadership has us stuck in a barrel and do nothing but make our lives miserable. This isn’t the story of a private who thinks he has it bad. There is a real problem, if it’s not taken care of it will eventually lead to horrible circumstances. I don’t know what to do at this point

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2020 8:57 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 20:57:04 -0400

If the Company level approach isn't working, then go to BN. If BN isn't working, then you go to BDE. And so on. Also, if you figure out with area the complaints delve into, then file a complaint with your EOA and/or IG office. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row first.

Or...you could just really grab your sack and walk into the Post CSM office, utilizing their open door policy. Again, you BETTER have your ducks in a row.

However, if you feel that people are going to start killing themselves, then there is the Post Chaplain you can contact.

You have avenues to travel down. It's a matter of having evidence, or enough justification to warrant an investigation.

Response by SFC Bryan Stetzer made Mar 29 at 2020 11:47 PM

SFC Bryan Stetzer — Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:47:35 -0400

I agree with SFC Livingston. There are lots of avenues moving up the chain of command, up to and including Division or even the DA level. If the problem is truly pervasive, and other Soldiers in the platoon are willing to come forward, then you can also contact the IG. One thing you might consider is getting sworn statements or MFRs from other members of the platoon. One question: is the problem the PSG, the Platoon Leader, or both? I would start by going to the PSG, 1SG, BN CSM, BDE CSM, and up to Division before I took the nuclear option and went to IG or a Congressman. That's why I recommend written statements from other Soldiers. I had a toxic OIC one time, and all the NCOs would go on and on about how we needed to tell the CSM, but when the CSM called a meeting and asked about it, all the sudden only 2 of us had anything to say. We both ended up in anger management.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Mar 30 at 2020 12:22 AM

SGT Robert Wager — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 00:22:40 -0400

If you are truly worried about suicidal ideation within your ranks, you need to run that up the flagpole and keep going until someone listens.

Go to your PSG, 1SG, CSM each on their open door policy. Document in memo form each interaction. Make sure you can articulate in detail what you consider “toxic leadership”. Understand the difference between a gripe and toxic leadership.

If the suspected suicideal behavior is immediate contact your 1SG and Chaplain immediately and tell them exactly why you believe what you believe.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2020 4:36 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 04:36:42 -0400

Let me give you my story and then some pointers.

When I first took over as a Platoon Sergeant, a freshly minted E-5, I had no idea what I was doing. My former unit was decommissioned, and I wasn't even trained in the same MOS field as the Marines I was leading. I had no clue. We were also dealing with a severe number of UA cases and a high suicide rate at the time. Just before I took over, a young Marine that had just joined out unit had some serious problems- his wife had left him and taken their kids, he had lost his job, and was forced to live with his parents (reserves if you didn't know). He reached out to his chain of command, his Fireteam Leader didn't answer his calls, his Squad Leader didn't answer his calls, his Platoon Sergeant DID answer his call but then chewed him a new one for bothering him. Eventually the kid packed up his gear, left a note asking his mom to turn it into the unit, and shot himself in the head. The response from his OIC was even more atrocious- he yelled at the whole platoon stating "if you are going to kill yourselves, just do it all at once so I only have to receive ONE email instead of four!" I'm not even joking about that quote, that is a legitimate quote from a Chief Warrant Officer that shall not be named. That was the current state of affairs I found myself in.

How do you get out of it? I can tell you that the road is difficult and it won't happen overnight. But there is a way of fixing it.

1. Lead Up. No one, I hope, is going out there saying "hey, I feel like being a terrible leader today! Let's go ruin some spirits and kill morale!" No, that's not what they think, and you need to intervene at the point of friction. That doesn't mean stepping on your leaders' toes. What it does mean is that if you think there is a legitimate problem, don't stay off to the side and grumble, step up, and be proactive not reactive- tell your non-coms "hey Sarge (nasty Army), let me handle this", or "Sergeant, I got this" rather than waiting for them to make the decision. This isn't a butt-kissing move if you truly feel that lives are on the line and suicide is a legitimate concern. Identify what they want to see, and get it done before they do. Then they will start listening to your concerns.

2. Listen to your fellow Soldiers. If quarantine is an issue, have everyone own it. Install What'sApp. Install Google Meet and host a drinking game or something. Become The Lost Boys (Peter Pan reference, not vampires). Every group of junior Marines has a Rufio. Be Rufio; find something that they all have in common, like a shout, or a phrase, or a symbol that can unite them. Create a symbol they can all get behind, make some platoon shirts, order them, whatever. Make some coins and award them for dumb things, like "To all who shall see these presents, greetings. Know ye, that PFC Benotz has earned this coin for picking up more cigarette butts in the smoking area than ALL other PFCs in the barracks..." Have fun with the situation your in. They are all feeling it too. Stand out and lead them in your way, with your energy. And have FUN with it; the best stories in the military typically come from tough times.

3. Learn the language. Learn how to write and submit awards even just LOAs and CERCOMS, read the "Stand-To!" (Ugh, if there wasn't more reasons to disdain the Army, they could just call it ARMADMINS like the Marines call theirs MARADMINS... Just saying guys c'mon) at https://www.army.mil/standto/archive/ and get familiar with the current events that are going on. Learn how to write a 5-paragraph order. Get familiar with promotion requirements and ensure that those you care for get PME complete, or ever meritoriously ready. Create a book club, here are some ideas of what to read:
-Legacy by J. Kerr
-Leading Up by M. Useem
-Machine, Platform, Crowd by A. McAfee
-A World in Disarray by R. Haass

These are all "Commandant's Choice" books that enhance leadership even though they have little to do with the military specifically. They are sure to look good on a wrap sheet.

Anyways, I hope this all helps. Like I said, I am a reservist, and a teacher at that, so I am stuck home for a hot minute. Happy to chat with you about the specifics of whats going on, and see if I can offer any more advice. Semper Fi.

STAND-TO!

STAND-TO! provides the official focus of the US Army.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 30 at 2020 10:47 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:47:23 -0400

US ARMY WTF MOMENTS seems to be pretty effective...

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Mar 30 at 2020 11:21 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:21:24 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member, it's one thing to say you have toxic leadership; which might be the God's honest truth or individual opinion; I couldn't possibly know which. But you are waiving a BIG red flag with that statement about suicide. Be extra careful with that. If you or someone you know are actually having such thoughts on a serious level, your first task isn't about the leadership (directly), that can be dealt with later; no, your first task is getting help fast. There are readily available resources in place to try to help soldiers step back who are standing on the precipice and looking down.

If there are those who are genuinely at that point, get that help first.

As for what to do about the leadership potion you are in, after you've taken care of addressing the bigger issue first, read then reread MSG Private RallyPoint Member's post. Maybe give it a 3rd read. Advice doesn't get more practical than that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2020 2:14 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:14:19 -0400

Have you reached out to IG if using your CoC isn’t working

Response by 1SG Cj Grisham made Apr 2 at 2020 1:02 PM

1SG Cj Grisham — Thu, 02 Apr 2020 13:02:23 -0400

First, try to directly address it with the offending asshole. It's possible he/she doesn't even know they're an asshole. If that doesn't work, move up. Keep a journal with specific incidents, facts and evidence. Use the chain of coand and don't be afraid. Find other soldiers and NCOs willing to have your back who feel the same way.