What if: What do you think the national reaction would have been had a Carrier been lost in Hurricane Joaquin, rather than the SS El Faro?

SN Greg Wright — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 16:31:49 -0500

What would be your personal reaction?

I was responding to a misguided soul in another thread who thinks that all Sailors at sea are behind the lines. He said that in response to my statement that there are no REMF's on board a ship. Everyone fights the ship, from the cooks to the medics to the Captain. I detailed many of the dangers Sailors face, but I'll just focus on the largest for this thread: Mother Nature.

As a Merchant Marine, I've been on ships massively larger, by deadweight tonnage, than Carriers. The largest I've been on approached 300k deadweight tons, loaded. 3 times the size of, say, the USS Ronald Reagan.

I was on her in the Bering Sea during a 100 year-storm. And she was being tossed like a twig in 30'+ waves (Remember, a 30 foot wave means a 60 foot trough. That's a LOT of vertical movement). Even with her bow into the waves, she was still rolling 22-29 degrees sideways...and she only gets about 31. She was rolling hard enough that there was what seemed like a 10-minute hang on each side (because you're scared shitless), but in reality was probably only 1 second or so. I personally was chanting to myself each time, 'Come back, baby, roll back'. I suspect I wasn't alone. Here's the kicker, and why I'm using this to illustrate the point of this thread: we survived that, and ships do all over the world frequently, for one simple, elegant reason: We never lost power and went sideways to the waves. If we had, that giant ship, that titanic object, would have suffered the fate of the SS El Faro. Every single engineer on that ship was up, on watch or not, and in machinery spaces. And everyone not involved in navigation was down there with them to do whatever it took to keep those engines running.

So if your initial reaction to my headline was 'That's preposterous, that would never happen to a US Navy ship', you need to re-evaluate that thought. Navy ships have mechanical failures all the time. I've personally seen the USS Long Beach lose rudder control while alongside my ship, and if that had happened at the time and place of the El Faro, she would have went down, too. Just like the Reagan or, really, any surface ship would. Mother Nature is a stone cold bitch, and if you do the slightest thing wrong at just the right time, she will make you pay.

So: if it had been a Carrier that fateful day, what do you think the National reaction would be? What would be yours?

I think the initial reaction would be outrage, because this country hasn't suffered Naval losses like that since the USS Frank Evans was cut in two by an Aussie Carrier in 1969. Today's public just isn't used to the idea of the Navy losing ships (though every actual Sailor is keenly aware of the perpetual possibility). This would be unfair, in my mind. Sailors aren't any more or less important than Soldiers and Airmen. But the public is jaded from 15 years of war, hearing about those sacrifices. I think everyone in the CoC from Sec Def down loses their job if this happens. And I think the President is irreparably damaged. The optics would kill his term, imo.

Personally, I'd be devastated. I'd empathize. My entire adult life has been spent at sea, so I consider everyone upon it my brothers and sisters. I friggen teared up at the Canadian Merchant Marine memorial, for pete's sake.

What are your thoughts?

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Dec 8 at 2015 4:33 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 16:33:00 -0500

I think it might have given the nation a reality check SN Greg Wright if a Carrier had been lost with all hands because of the sheer size and approximately 5,000 personnel typically assigned to a carrier [number may no longer be accurate :-)
For some reason when cargo ships are lost at sea the nation tends to barely notice unlike when a Cruise ship is attacked, grounded, etc.
Like you, the families, friend sand fellow sailors grieve when a ship is lost but the rest of the nation seems to drift from sympathy to whatever happens to be teh next news cycle.
Empathy for sailors is probably limited to the New England coast and perhaps the great lakes region.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 8 at 2015 4:40 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 16:40:35 -0500

It would have been a headline rather than a sideline.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Dec 8 at 2015 5:11 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 17:11:23 -0500

I agree with your analysis, SN Greg Wright. The sea is uncontrollable, and anyone who thinks that anything that Man can create is capable of beating the sea is a fool.

As a submariner, I feel that all those who sail on or under the sea are my Brothers. No matter how small the ship or the number of souls on board, my heart dies a little every time I hear about a missing / sunk vessel.

Although the video is of a French frigate, this is my FAVORITE video / version of the Navy Hymn (Eternal Father, Strong to Save).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dlXmuYuAYc

Eternal Father Strong to Save

Prague Philharmonic Orchestra and chorus, arrangement by Hans Zimmer (from Crimson Tide). Video footage - Marine Nationale de France.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Dec 8 at 2015 5:18 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 17:18:30 -0500

SN Greg Wright It would have made front page news!

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Dec 8 at 2015 5:30 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 17:30:02 -0500

Man all 36 levels of hell and recalls would've happened. If you were thinking about getting some sleep, better think again. The US Navy loosing a ship let alone a capitol one? There would be hell to pay, and as screwed up as the stuff we do is, they wouldn't be in trouble for long. In this scenario (correct me if needed), a carrier never sails alone, so for them abandoning ship would be very tough, but the number of lives would be low due to the close proximity of her sister ships. I'm no Sailor but I see a LOT of strong coffee being brewed, some Master Chiefs barking orders at others barking orders, while JO's and JE's are running around in circles trying to get things done. It would be the typical cluster whenever we loose a piece of equipment. Ladi dadi everybody, get up, fall in, and lets find this sh*t. The only safe person in all of this is the Boot still in training.

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Dec 8 at 2015 5:34 PM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 17:34:04 -0500

Agree with you 100% Hubby was on mine sweeps during PG war. He mentioned side rolls and the footprints on the walls that had to be washed off later. Spooky.

Response by MSG Tim Gray made Dec 8 at 2015 7:23 PM

MSG Tim Gray — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 19:23:03 -0500

I didn't join the navy for one major reason, if the vehicle I'm riding in gets hit by an IED, I likely won't have to fight to continue breathing! Just watching Pearl Harbor aggravates my PTSD!

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Dec 8 at 2015 8:16 PM

PO1 Scott Cottrell — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 20:16:34 -0500

I remember taking green water on the Flight deck of LHA-3 going through a Typhoon, Note LHA's and LHD's flight decks are 30 feet taller than a CVN. Also watched the USS Frederick (one of the last LST's) become an aircraft (could see under the hull) one minute and a sub (only thing we could see was the top of the Mast) the next. Also, remember see the crack along the superstructure of LHA -1, they had taken a 28 degree roll (the superstructure is designed to break off anything more than the 30 degree roll so it does not roll the whole ship completely over). I believe the superstructure of a CVN is set up the same way, but LHA/LHD's are flat bottom ships (rock and roll all the time) a CVN is longer and a lot wider, it would need to be a hell of a storm to put them in real danger of sinking.

Response by LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow made Dec 8 at 2015 8:44 PM

LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 20:44:13 -0500

I crossed the North Atlantic in December in SHENANDOAH (AD 44). We were taking green water over the bridge; roughly 80 feet above the waterline. And she was a single screw, single rudder tub. I was afraid she'd hog and break during that storm...

Response by PO1 John Miller made Dec 8 at 2015 10:42 PM

PO1 John Miller — Tue, 08 Dec 2015 22:42:45 -0500

When I was on the Nimitz, there were a few times off the coast of Australia when we were in rough seas and I could feel the ship rocking and rolling. Feeling that on a Carrier is quite unique and definitely shoots the pucker/oh shit factor up 1,000%.

I also remember standing watch on the bridge wing of the USS Halsey (CG23) many moons ago when I was a clueless 18yo Deck Seaman. The seas we were transiting were so rough that weather decks were completely secured. We were rolling all over the place. I don't know degrees because I wasn't privy to that information. What I DO know is that the waves we were crashing through were making their way all the way up to the bridge (03 level) and I was constantly getting splashed in the face (so staying awake and alert was not an issue that time, LOL).

Anybody who says that Sailors and sailors don't face any real danger or "Navy ships would never sink!!!" don't know WTF they're talking about and I challenge them to ride along with a ship transiting through the Indian Ocean during typhoon season.

Response by PO1 Kenneth Cardwell made Dec 9 at 2015 10:57 AM

PO1 Kenneth Cardwell — Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:57:46 -0500

Some three or four star would have been relieved of duty and disgraced. I also serve as a merchant marine after serving on 4 carriers. Many of those working here and many Americans do not know the dangers we face on an ocean far from land. God be all of those who lost their lives!

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Dec 9 at 2015 12:28 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 09 Dec 2015 12:28:03 -0500

After reading your post, I'm affirmed that naval service is not for me..... ;o)

But to your original question: losing a carrier (or any capital ship) in a storm would be a major blow. Not only in loss of life, but loss of strategic capability. Carriers are one of the nation's premier force projection platforms, and are very, VERY expensive. They are a finite resource and the loss of one currently would take years to replace.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Dec 9 at 2015 1:33 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Wed, 09 Dec 2015 13:33:49 -0500

For sure front page news with all kinds of committees and sub committees being chaired up and the finger pointing would be so bad that fingers would get broken from all the pointing.
There would be investigations into the CO, XO, OPSO, GATOR, and every single senior officer and since its a carrier your speaking of then for sure a Rear Admiral and his senior officers. They would all be investigated about all of the what if scenario. Their careers and lives would be torn apart and that of their families looking for anything to pin the blame on.
Its a merchant vessel so they will just blame the company and the Ships Master as being incompetent no matter what facts arise out of any investigation.

Response by MCPO Katrina Hutcherson made Dec 10 at 2015 3:48 AM

MCPO Katrina Hutcherson — Thu, 10 Dec 2015 03:48:00 -0500

SN Greg Wright I can't agree with you that heads would roll and our President would be damaged. No one in their right mind thinks our government can beat Mother Nature in all her fury. It would only get ugly if perhaps an investigation uncovered a history of CASREPS on engines that continually failed or overdue yard availability for engine overhaul due to budget cuts etc. etc.

Oh hear us when we cry to thee for those in peril on the sea...

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Dec 12 at 2015 9:52 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:52:27 -0500

SN Greg Wright Well, I have to admit, after reading your experience, it sure put's it in a different perspective than what I had, and I think your presumptions are correct, at least in my opinion...

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Dec 15 at 2015 6:30 PM

CPO Joseph Grant — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:30:28 -0500

There will come a time when we have another Naval War and when we do I don't think this country is going to be prepared for the number of casualties. MSG Tim Gray I wouldn't want your job but you apparently wouldn't want mine. I cannot imagine having someone shooting at me repeatedly I would preferred to have one really large explosive device coming at me and take my chances My hat's off to you, Brother.

Response by CPO Joseph Grant made Dec 15 at 2015 6:33 PM

CPO Joseph Grant — Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:33:23 -0500

SN Greg Wright I hear you brother. I was on two surface ships and the rest of my time was on board submarines. I earned my SSDI as a defense contractor on board a tiny tiny ship that ran into a very big typhoon. If we lost propulsion we would've been dead

Response by PO2 Kerry Owen made Dec 16 at 2015 10:44 AM

PO2 Kerry Owen — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:44:11 -0500

Sn Wright, As my first post...I had to respond to your comment re: the cutting in half of the USS Evans by HMS Melbourne in 1969. I was there the night we lost 74 sailors. I was aboard the USS Kearsarge and witnessed first hand the rescue operations. Only one body was ever recovered. The forward section of the ship sank in 5 mins and every Chief was lost as their berthing space was located forward. One PO from the Evans was picked up off the flight deck of the Melbourne after the impact. Survivors were initially rescued by the Melbourne, as well as helo's and small skiffs from the Kearsarge. Men were being brought aboard with major injuries from High Pressure steam lines...cut from the impact... that severed limbs...and immediately cauterized the wounds. The sea that night was mirror smooth with flying fish clearly visible for 150 yds from the bow. With only the aft section of the Evans afloat 500 yds from us....the multiple helo's circling about with searchlights scanning the surface...it was surrealistic....dream like. I will never forget that night.
I also was aboard the USS Coral sea during a typhoon in the South China Sea and watched waves wash over the flight deck...70 ft above the water line. Even a carrier can get tossed around far more than people would ever realize ...unless they were aboard her. How sailors can even survive in a tin can in that kind of weather is beyond me.
As far as combat related losses for naval personnel....my last deployment to Yankee / Dixie Station in Tonkin Gulf....we lost 18 people. Nine from direct combat action of our air wing and nine from non combat related accidents...such as bad cat shots, sheared arresting wire, and a sheared wire cable in the foc'sle when an anchor and chain were lost in heavy weather. Sea duty in general and the flight deck of a carrier specifically... is an extremely dangerous place.
But to your question....yes...the loss of a carrier with the potential of loosing 5800 crewmen would stun the nation. After experiencing the loss of 74 in one night...I can't imagine the loss of thousands of men in one ship sinking.

Response by SN John Burkholder made Dec 16 at 2015 11:41 AM

SN John Burkholder — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:41:47 -0500

A carrier would have been a disaster, any ship lost is a tragedy. Having sailed through a typhoon in the South China Sea, I cuss a little every time a weatherman says "it looks like the hurricane will track safely out to sea."
Our weather decks were sealed too, except for two Marines who wanted to take pictures. They were slammed into a bulkhead, washed into the rail and were hauled in by some brave sailors.
Most soldiers who denigrate any other service member as a REMF doesn't realize that ALL contribute to the effort. The front line soldier would not get far without the guy in the warehouse who ships his food and ammunition. Guess some think that stuff appears by magic.
Those who specifically go after the Navy really have no idea what we do.

Response by PO3 Bob Walsh made Dec 16 at 2015 11:58 PM

PO3 Bob Walsh — Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:58:31 -0500

SN, Greg Wright; I too went from the Navy to the Merchant Marine. I spent a summer running up to the Arctic supplying the SAC bases. In 1959 or 60, a Hurricane came up the coast and caught us in Iceberg infested waters. As you described there is no off duty time, everyone is on deck to control every eventuality. There is no room for error: THE SEA IS UNFORGIVING! I was young, (21 years old) and had no fear of sinking, I had complete confidence in the Captain and did what was required of me, seemingly insignificant tasks.
I was aboard the USS Bennington CVA 20, when Steering was lost during a power steering Drill. When the Hydraulic Steering was disengaged there was a significant delay engaging the Mechanical steering. After the drill all hands involved were called to a meeting, with the Captain. He explained everything that could have happened. We could have plowed through the task Force, Ramming any ship in our path, including troop ships. Or if the rudder was in position to turn we could have gone into a circle and depending the degree of the turn and the resulting list, the weight of the flight deck and Superstructure could have easily caused the ship to capsize.

Response by SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury made Dec 24 at 2015 12:02 AM

SCPO Charles Thomas "Tom" Canterbury — Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:02:53 -0500

Navy ships don't sink. HOWEVER, if one did it would make world news.

Response by SGT Matt Schiess made May 21 at 2016 12:43 AM

SGT Matt Schiess — Sat, 21 May 2016 00:43:18 -0400

I would personally take it as a national tragedy. Considering how well-trained our Navy is,(coming from an Army guy lol) things like that are kept at a minimum.
That said, it's not always a great idea to play the what if game. Especially with the weather. Every storm is different, has a different character.
Example: A category 3 storm in the right place/right time can only produce a 15 foot surge, while a minimal Category 1 (remember Hurricane Sandy?) can throw up 30+ feet.
There's too many variables to account for to make accurate guesses as to what can happen with what type of vessel.
As far as the public, there'd for sure be national outcry for blanket reform for sailing in storms policy.
It would be the good idea fairy rearing her worst head. And it would be a detriment to the Navy, as I'm sure they sail on in all but the worst storms.
My question is this...
We're any US Navy vessels involved with Super Typhoon in the Phillipines in 2011?

Response by Alan K. made May 21 at 2016 6:32 AM

Alan K. — Sat, 21 May 2016 06:32:31 -0400

My reaction (And all of Gloucester and the North Shore) was and would be the same as when the 'Can-Do" left Gloucester Mass. to assist a ship in distress during the blizzard of '78 And never returned. Lost with all hands (5). We created 5' X 8' panels to hang in Gloucester City Hall, we thought we were done but had to add 5 names. "They That Go down To The Sea In Ships" She is very unforgiving and overwhelming at times, the Sea....

Response by SSgt Terry P. made May 21 at 2016 8:15 AM

SSgt Terry P. — Sat, 21 May 2016 08:15:01 -0400

SN Greg Wright I have spent a lot of time on the water,but could never begin to comprehend the dangers faced by anyone who has spent their life at sea.
Thank you for this enlightening post,Greg.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made May 21 at 2016 11:10 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Sat, 21 May 2016 11:10:22 -0400

I once weathered a hurricane on the Chesapeake Bay in a 42' boat. I was 15 years old at the time and too stupid to be as afraid as I should have been. Sadly, the Navy was too slow in processing my application for OCS and I ended up in the Army. So here's one puke who knows what you're talking about and I'll disagree only to a degree. There may be REMFs on a ship, but they will suffer for their mistakes. REMFs in the other services usually don't. (For the sake of clarity, not everyone who serves in the RE's is a MF. Just those who have the power to send others in harm's way without proper direction and discretion)

Response by PO2 Kristy Williams made Sep 1 at 2016 8:26 PM

PO2 Kristy Williams — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 20:26:30 -0400

I'm profoundly changed by my time spent in the Navy. I wouldn't be where or who I am without it. If this had happened to one of our ships I would have to call into work explaining a death in the family and that I wouldn't be to work. Being on a ship is comforting and routine, it's a fuzzy safety grey safety blanket that you never think you'll lose. You don't think about the fact that your carrier is just a toy in the sea.

So if we lost a carrier I'd be devastated. The loss of so many brothers and sisters. So many sailors, marines, and anyone else aboard ship gone. I'm pretty sure America would grieve with us, but with the things going on in our country right now I just don't know.