What happens to a SM if he/she curses out a civilian?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:44:05 -0400

Today, a soldier of mine disrespected a civilian by cursing him out. He told me that the civilian was rude to him so he returned the same treatment. The civilian said that he would report it to his chain of command. I was the first person he told. He has not been called into the 1SGs office or anything yet. Again, this happened today. My question is, what can come of this? Article 15? Rank deduction????

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Sep 10 at 2015 5:45 PM

SSG Kevin McCulley — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:45:42 -0400

What can come is a social media bomb...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 5:46 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:46:32 -0400

In all honesty, I would certainly chew the Soldier for being rude and cursing at the civilian regardless of the civilian initiating it. But, before I would take it further for possible Article 15/rank taking, I would try and contact that civilian and get their side of the story (if I did not witness the exchange).

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 10 at 2015 5:46 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:46:48 -0400

Act respectfully and report the civilian to the appropriate chain of command

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Sep 10 at 2015 5:58 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 17:58:37 -0400

The simple answer is "Formal Counselling" which just means paperwork. The "depth" of that paperwork is another ballgame.

Swearing, though a common habit is still not only a bad habit, but unprofessional behavior in the workplace, and if directed at another "abuse." It cannot be tolerated in a Professional Work Environment.

Yes, as Service Members, we have the mantra of "grow a thicker skin." Hate to say it, but that's wrong. That's the kind of thing that will get you fired and/or sued in the civilian marketplace.

So, as I said above, "Formal Counselling" which for the USMC would be at the minimum a training jacket entry, and possibly a p11 entry. If the offense was big enough, it goes on the Pro/Con or FitRep statement (Periodic Formal Counselling). I don't "believe" it's UCMJ worthy, however I believe there actually is an Article that can be used (don't recall # & charge off top of my head). That's where we get into rank reduction, etc.

But, as immediate action separate the two folks. Get in front of it, and let the 1SG know, because unlike fine wine, bad news is more like milk... it doesn't get better with age, and if there is an incident, wouldn't he want to hear it from you and your troop, than be blindsided by the CO & some SES-1?

Edit: To clarify, I think this is an ass-chewing offense for losing his bearing more than anything, however "paperwork" may appease the "GS Gods" even if that paperwork doesn't mean anything.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Sep 10 at 2015 6:18 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:18:36 -0400

Find out what actually happened before you take any negative actions.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 6:20 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:20:34 -0400

Just out of curiosity, is the civilian in your work space, or was it a random person in the Commissary parking lot? Irrespective, there should most certainly be stern counseling +. We are meant to represent the finest and must act accordingly. In uniform and out, we are held to a higher standard than others.

"The civilian was rude to him". I mean what degree of rude are we talking to warrant such behavior from a uniformed member? What is he, 12? A modicum of self-control is certainly in order here.

I am also not saying that he take it lying down if the civilian was flagrantly out of line. If he had the burning desire to reply, when in uniform, he should have responded with decorum. Learn better words so you can hem someone up more articulately and not stoop to being a gutter snipe and all the charms that go with it.

A well-versed beleaguering is just as effective as lighting someone up in an explicit blaze. Trust me. :)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 6:27 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:27:48 -0400

counseling and some extra duty should solve the problem (hopefully)

Response by Cpl James Waycasie made Sep 10 at 2015 6:34 PM

Cpl James Waycasie — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 18:34:35 -0400

When I was in the Corps the punishment if reported really depended on the outcome of the confrontation. If it had escalated to the point to where someone was injured then yes there would be a good possibility of a NJP , fine, loss of rank, E.P.D. and maybe even a courtmartial if the extent of the injuries were real serious. Normally if just a verbal confrontation took place a page 11 entry might be all that one would receive.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 7:18 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:18:22 -0400

As a specialist (again) and a soldier that has been demoted for an accidental discharge of a AFES fire extinguisher inside a Humvee while doing a PMCS just a few months before my E5 promotion while over seas, I find that an Article 15 wouldnt be the way to go.

Me it did make me a bigger and better soldier and thought me more discipline but at the same time also really effected me in a bad way given I just found out my spouse was cheating on my while over seas and taking my money.

Being said, SFC Melvin I feel that negative counseling's along with artical 15 can hurt the soldier unless the soldier is constantly messing up and "Can't Get Right" then it's understandable.

They say, every great NCO has had at least one negative counseling statement and or Artical 15.

As a junior enlisted, I would ask for a chance to redeem myself, as being a soldier we are to maintain professionalism at all times but given personal situations the civilian could have just caught this soldier on a bad day and everyone has our days.

Returning from my last deployment I snapped often or would find myself about to snap but contained myself though sadly family would get my held in anger.

Apologies for the novel, I just know that when I get my 5 I know how I would handle situations. Negative counseling's and Artical 15's hurt the soldier rather than improve unless nessisary. Not every soldier is strong enough to bounce back from a 15. But as soldiers we should know how to like I did.

(Speech over)
(Comes to attention awaits "Top"... Salutes, left face and returns to formation!) :-P

Response by PO2 Corey Ferretti made Sep 10 at 2015 7:35 PM

PO2 Corey Ferretti — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 19:35:47 -0400

I would not think reduction in rank will happen worst case a butt chewin will happen if there is a phone call. I remember i had to go to supply for FEX Retrograde and teh civilian in charge there was a B***H. I had a medical appointment and she told me i am not allowed to go because she is in charge of me and she said she ordered me to stay. I informed in a very non-professional manner and in a rude way she was not my supperior she was a civilian and i am leavin and if she had a problem wiht it call my Chief. Well i got a nice talking to and then never had to go back. What is funny a few months later she got in trouble for misappropriation of government funds.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Sep 10 at 2015 8:15 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 20:15:45 -0400

Personally, I would wonder if the disrespect by the civilian has been going on for some time until the soldier had a blow up moment. I've been treated this way by senior enlisted, officers, and civilians, and while I haven't blown up yet there are many times I've almost punched a superior in the face for the blatant disrespect they have shown my profession, my service, my peers, and myself. At some point it's no longer tolerated and in the units I've been in nothing is usually done about the negative treatment towards subordinates.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 9:15 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:15:29 -0400

In this case that he cussed out what I am guessing a DA CIV of the GS variety. I would get both sides. If he lost baring in public I would council him. At the same time if it turns out Ms DA Civ was out of line I would have that staffed to the Civ HR office on base.
Being an AF guy, we probably deal with DAF Civs. More than the other services. In my experience they are professional. Except every now and then you get the one rotten apple who works some sort of customer service support function on base. I have had run ins with GS-12/13 Snuffy who thinks they have the equivalent rank of a Major or Lt Col. Sometimes they take their GS status to their heads and act like tyrants on base. I have had to file a complaint against a rotten lady who had a reputation for being nasty and very confrontational,. I was the second complaint in one month. If she got one more then she could have been terminated for cause. Needless to say she saw me gave me the cold shoulder, but she did stop pushing her weight around.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 10 at 2015 9:29 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:29:59 -0400

First order for me is to find out the three sides to the truth, and resolve at the lowest level.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 9:34 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:34:44 -0400

There's nothing really that you can do as far as UCMJ is concerned. You can however counsel the soldier, not as a form of punishment but to help him understand the error of his ways!

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 11:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:37:33 -0400

Well, if he was my troop I'd tear him up. First, why would they become a Soldier if not to protect the liberties and rights of civilians? Seems counterintuitive to curse out the people he's sworn to protect. Second, it makes all Soldiers look bad. Last, if he was my troop, he is a direct reflection of me. And that doesn't sit well with me knowing my troops been out cursing at civilians as I wouldn't want my honor besmirched

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Sep 11 at 2015 8:31 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 08:31:33 -0400

There is way to much "he said" and "they said" to really come to a conclusion. If anything, the Soldier may need a refresher on maintaining his professionalism and military bearing even if he is disrespected. I look back at times like when guys were coming home from Vietnam. Most of them got a lot worse than just having someone cuss at them. Think of how hard it was for them. They came home after serving their country only to find people disrespecting everything they just fought for. The Soldier needs to do his/her best to remain calm in such a situation and to remember that he/she is a torch carrier for all that came before.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 11:11 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 11:11:34 -0400

I would talk to Soldier about being professional. Leave it at that.

If the civilian talked to me - just listen.

Response by SGT John Rauch made Sep 11 at 2015 12:19 PM

SGT John Rauch — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 12:19:50 -0400

lack of professionalism, corrective training should do the trick, honestly I find a person who is quiet when they are angry to be more of a threat than someone who throws a childish hissy fit