What exactly is the difference between a Master Sergeant and a 1st Sergeant? Is one technically higher than the other?

2018-04-26T21:24:18-04:00

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2018 10:00 PM

2018-04-26T22:00:07-04:00

They are both in the E-8 grade, however the First Sergeant rank is applies to the SNCO that is given a role and responsibility as part of the Command Team. It is not unusual for a MSG to have done time as a First Sergeant. Even if the MSG has more time in grade than the E8 in the First Sergeant Role, the First Sergeant, just by virtue of position, becomes the NCOIC of the company.
Often a Master Sergeant will perform their duties as a Senior Staff NCO, especially at higher echelons. The closest analogy would be the difference between a Sergeant Major (SGM) and a Command Sergeant Major (CSM). The SGM is similar to a MSG, where CSM is similar to 1SG.

I am sure you can find plenty of information on this topic with that new thing called the internet.

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Apr 26 at 2018 11:34 PM

2018-04-26T23:34:54-04:00

SFC Squires summed it up pretty well. I'll just add that you better show that MSG the same level of respect as you would any 1SG. (Or any NCO, for that matter.)

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Apr 27 at 2018 12:55 AM

2018-04-27T00:55:00-04:00

The difference is level of authority they have and duties they carry. Just like a corporal is to a specialist; they are the blame Rank and same pay but the coporal has more authority and usually more duties than a specialist. A 1SG usually the highest NCO of a company level.

Response by SGT Joseph Gunderson made Apr 27 at 2018 8:47 AM

2018-04-27T08:47:20-04:00

If you are an E4 and you are asking this question, your drill sergeants and every leader that you have had after that have failed you.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 27 at 2018 9:56 AM

2018-04-27T09:56:59-04:00

A SPC doesn't know?. Ok there is no difference in pay, but undoubted in power/position. Bothe are E8, the MSG is on staff at BN and higher as the Section NCOIC and controls that section as it's senior NCOIC. The 1SG is a command title- he is the senior NCO of a Company, head enlisted advisor to the Company Commander. It is no different the SGM/CSM- SGM are in charge of staffs, CSM are in charge as the senior NCO of units.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Apr 27 at 2018 10:42 AM

2018-04-27T10:42:51-04:00

I was in the position of 1sgt for about 3 months while still an SFC. Our old 1sgt had left on a compassionate reassignment. Then the replacement E8 assigned the duty arrived and I went back to my regular duties. I was happily surprised that the other E8s in the company gave me no problems. None of them wanted the job. lol.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2018 10:47 AM

2018-04-27T10:47:18-04:00

You still have to stand at parade rest for either one.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2018 10:49 AM

2018-04-27T10:49:32-04:00

I will add a bit to the ground that others have covered.
A First Sergeant works for the company commander and is responsible for the training and welfare of the unit. They are seldom used at echelons above company level except for headquarters companies at battalion, brigade, etc.
A Master Sergeant usually works for one of the staff sections and is the senior NCO of that section usually responsible for work assignment and flow and supporting the primary staff officer in their duties. Mostly MSGs reside at brigade staffs and above, although you will see them sometimes as the Operations Sergeant in a battalion or a senior in a more technical kind of unit.

Response by MSG Stan Hutchison made Apr 27 at 2018 10:55 AM

2018-04-27T10:55:25-04:00

Do you know the difference between a Platoon Sergeant and a Sergeant First Class?
Similar, but at a higher level.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2018 11:10 AM

2018-04-27T11:10:27-04:00

So, help a sailor out. I haven’t been attached to the Marines yet, and in high school rotc we only had c/1SGs and a c/CSM. No c/SPC, no c/MSG, no c/SGM.

MSG & SGM are NCOs in charge of the staff on an S (S-1, S-2, etc.)
Does that make them specialists in their area? Similar to difference between CPL and SPC? (SGM:MSG:SPC:::CSM:1SG:CPL).
They’re NCOs, whereas SPC aren’t, but are they specialists in their MOS? Navy/USCG, we have Command/Force/Fleet Chiefs, where they’re not the lead in a Department, but the senior sailor on board. Is that the model? Or a first-among-equals kind of thing?

Different culture, just trying to learn. Thanks!

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 27 at 2018 11:34 AM

2018-04-27T11:34:30-04:00

By position a 1SG is technically higher than a MSG if that MSG is in the same unit as the 1SG. For example in the old legacy HSC units the Maintenance Master Sergeant and the Operations Master Sergeant both were in positions with tasking/ inspections authority over units in the BN but deferred to the HSC 1SG in unit matters.

Response by 1SG Cj Grisham made Apr 27 at 2018 2:07 PM

2018-04-27T14:07:56-04:00

Simply put, the difference is that a master sergeant is a staff NCO and a first sergeant is a command NCO.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Apr 27 at 2018 4:08 PM

2018-04-27T16:08:31-04:00

The simple answer is they are both pay Grade E-8 one with a Lateral appointment same as SPC/CPL, the 1SG is in a leadership position and has more direct responsibility for a greater number of other NCO's and troops. a MSG is a Staff position with minimal troops responsibility although he may still have some important responsibilities in sections or in assigned duties. The running Joke is that many MSG's are glad they are not 1SG's and many 1SG's get burned out and would love to be Master Sergeants. The running gag in a meme is one is glad he is not the other. I was a Pay grade E-8 for 13 years. I served as a 1SG for 10 of those years and not always by choice. 1sg's can burn out, that's why they need a break every so often, I know I could have used a longer break.

Response by 1SG Klayton W. Hayes made Apr 27 at 2018 7:11 PM

2018-04-27T19:11:07-04:00

General Officers will at times reply, “Yes First Sergeant”. To the Master Sergeant they issue orders. “Diamonds are trump”. That is the difference. My retired ID reads First Sergeant and MOS carries the M identifier.

Response by SFC Bruce Revelle made Apr 29 at 2018 12:41 PM

2018-04-29T12:41:02-04:00

I served as a First Sergeant as an E7 and earned my “M”
Identifier. It’s a duty position and you don’t have to be a E8. That’s why I believe the Army should have an E7 stripe with a diamond as the AF does.

Response by 1SG Andrew Biggerstaff made Apr 29 at 2018 2:42 PM

2018-04-29T14:42:00-04:00

1SG is the senior nco and advisor to the Company Commander and a part of the command staff at the Company level. He/She is lateraly promoted from MSG to1SG. MSG usually works at staff level Battalion or higher.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Apr 29 at 2018 9:39 PM

2018-04-29T21:39:50-04:00

Let me compound (confuse) the issue a bit further. The Marine Corps differs from the Army in that GySgts (E-7) have to request and be selected for promotion to 1stSgt (E-8) regardless of MOS otherwise they will only be considered for promotion to MSgt (E-8) in their MOS. 1stSgts are ONLY assigned to 1stSgt billets whether at the company/battery level or similar. If, in the absence of a 1stSgt a MSgt (or occasionally a GySgt) fills in, he/she is "acting 1stSgt" but doesn't trade the crossed rifles for a diamond. 1stSgts compete for promotion to SgtMaj and MSgts compete for promotion to MGySgt. II would say, "never the twain shall meet" but like everything in the military there are processes for a 1stSgt to "cross" to MSgt and vice versa, but very, very rare in practice.

Response by 1SG Clifford Barnes made Apr 30 at 2018 9:14 PM

2018-04-30T21:14:33-04:00

Yes a 1SG is in a Command position and leads all the Soldiers in his company. Usually a MSG is in a non leadership post per say G1 Nurses etc Does that make sense

Response by MSG James Douglas made May 1 at 2018 8:10 AM

2018-05-01T08:10:02-04:00

This has been answered fairly......in other terms, compare a SPC with a CPL.

Response by 1SG Dale Cantrell made May 2 at 2018 10:28 AM

2018-05-02T10:28:22-04:00

Same pay not same job or respect , Top arrives two hours before everybody and stays two hours later than everyone

Response by MSG John Wirts made May 6 at 2018 7:57 PM

2018-05-06T19:57:32-04:00

The First Sergeant is directly in the chain of command under the Company Commander, a master sergeant can hold many administrative positions, but is not in the chain of command. In that respect the First Sergeant out ranks a master sergeant. To get touchy the First Sergeant is at company level directly below the Company Commander, a master sergeant at battalion level is not in the chain of command but is above the company level nco's.

Response by MSG Brian Wiscott made May 9 at 2018 12:31 AM

2018-05-09T00:31:38-04:00

A MSG. Is a technically orientated NCO. Where as a First Sargeant's mission is to make sure that the commander's intent is carried out, and at the same time be a voice for the enlisted personnel under his command

Response by 1SG Carl Douglass made May 15 at 2018 5:31 PM

2018-05-15T17:31:43-04:00

1SGT out ranks Master SGT

Response by 1SG Dave McWilliams made May 15 at 2018 7:36 PM

2018-05-15T19:36:38-04:00

A MSG is a staff position / support for command jobs at the BN , BDE , division level and a 1SG is a command position in charge of troop that do direct contact or maneuver in the field with fighting bad guys ..

Response by 1SG Billye Jackson made May 15 at 2018 8:57 PM

2018-05-15T20:57:29-04:00

when in Doubt Diamonds are TRUMP! LOL

Response by LTC John Bush made May 16 at 2018 8:32 PM

2018-05-16T20:32:23-04:00

As a company commander ( 3 companies in and out of combat) my First Sergeant was my sounding board, confidant, heart on all matters concerning my soldiers and NCOs. He had insight and experience that I could rely on and could function as an executive officer when necessary. My platoon leaders, no matter how smart, brave and dedicated were always in a training mode and when they got really good they moved up and out. That is how the system works and how we can get good commanders. The First Sergeant and NCOs provide the continuity and experience essential for success. A MSG gives an administrative, staff, technical operation a depth of experience and operational continuity necessary for success. Equally capable individuals but the First Sergeant is part of the command structure as is the CSM

Response by MAJ Bill Maynard made May 21 at 2018 5:55 PM

2018-05-21T17:55:21-04:00

As stated, Google and chain of command. Will your next question ask the difference between CSM and SGM?

Response by SFC Jim Dorsey made May 25 at 2018 9:27 AM

2018-05-25T09:27:03-04:00

MSG is normally a senior NCO in a technical MOS.
1SG is normally THEE senior NCO at company level.
Don’t piss off either one!

Response by MSG Douglas Wilson made Jun 1 at 2018 5:58 PM

2018-06-01T17:58:00-04:00

One is in directly in charge of a company of soldiers 1SG, the other is normally in a operational role, MSG.

Response by MSG Kevin Speer made Jun 3 at 2018 4:51 PM

2018-06-03T16:51:31-04:00

Yes, 1st Sgt is an E-9 which is a higher rank and the highest rank of an Enlisted person...

Response by MSG Kevin Speer made Jun 3 at 2018 5:01 PM

2018-06-03T17:01:26-04:00

Sorry I hit E-9 rather than E-8. They are bothe senior enlisted soldiers but the 1st Sgt would be considered the NCOIC in this case even though they are both E-8 in Rank. I apologize for the first post, my damn fingers are too big for these letters and numbers. The eyesight of this old man doesn’t help either....

I hope this helps....

Response by MSgt T Clark made Jun 4 at 2018 3:32 AM

2018-06-04T03:32:51-04:00

Both are Senior Non-Commissioned Officers. However, the First Sergeant requires the rank of a MSgt as a minimum. It’s a dictinctive senior position in an organization. The 1Sgt is solely charged with managing the welfare of the enlisted personnel in the organization they are assigned, on behalf of the Unit Commander.

Response by SSG Michael Farina made Jun 4 at 2018 7:19 PM

2018-06-04T19:19:53-04:00

Technically they are the same except for the Diamond . It signifies that diamond is in charge of a Company... as a Master sergeant just assist anyway they can .....

Response by CPL Bill Schroeder made Jun 8 at 2018 10:42 AM

2018-06-08T10:42:37-04:00

Yes, First Sergeants run the Army.

Response by PO1 Timothy Organ made Jun 11 at 2018 2:01 PM

2018-06-11T14:01:32-04:00

What I understand is that the Master Segeant is a subject matter expert albeit enlisted advisor, unlike a warrant officer. A Sergeant Major and First Sergeant is a manpower manager. They have similar skillsets when it applies to leadership but billet wise they serve one or the other purpose as mentioned earlier.

Response by SP5 Arthur Ben Ephraim made Jun 13 at 2018 8:23 PM

2018-06-13T20:23:57-04:00

1st Sgt is Top Gun by the book by designated authority in the same manner Old School 'Green Tab' NCO may command any US ARMY combat formation; nevertheless, natural leaders sometimes emerge. The NCO is the backbone of the US ARMY. Initiative without orders must be requisite. For example, a E-4 once commanded Lt. Col. Andres' 1/33 AR 2 BDE 3 AD SPEARHEAD.

Response by CPL Luke Saunders made Jun 18 at 2018 9:11 AM

2018-06-18T09:11:55-04:00

Go find yourself a MSG and ask. Go straight to the source. It's the quickest way to get the answer. Don't be a pussy, SPC. Or be a Pussy Specialist. I don't fucking care, just get an exhaust sample of the commanders track over to the motorpool.

Response by SFC William Stephens made Jun 22 at 2018 10:28 AM

2018-06-22T10:28:58-04:00

SAME PAY BROTHER

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jul 8 at 2018 5:28 PM

2018-07-08T17:28:55-04:00

I find it odd that wasn't explained in basic.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 9 at 2018 4:04 PM

2018-07-09T16:04:06-04:00

SGT Gunderson,
I believe that you are mistaken for this is simply a training issue for the majority of Command Staff. I am the 1SG of a Field Artillery Battery but am currently deployed as part of a Joint Staff. The 2nd day on ground, I took off the diamond and am referred to as “Master Sergeant” by all the Navy and Air Force personnel on ground. They do not know that I am a First Seargeant and when I attempt to explain to them that when I came to a “Staff” position, I lose the diamond for I am not part of the “Command Team”.
His Drill Sergeants did not fail him for it is something you learn after a while after you start to earn your technical and tactical experience.

Response by SFC Scott Higgins made Jul 10 at 2018 9:31 AM

2018-07-10T09:31:09-04:00

A Master Sergeant is an E-8 and always will be; despite their role within a unit. While the First Sergeant Role is and E-8 position, it may be filled by someone of a lower rank. As an E-6 (Staff Sergeant) I served as the Company First Sergeant when my First Sergeant allowed all of the Comapny's E-7 take leave at the same time along with himself. I also served as Company First Sergeant as an E-7 (Sergeant First Class) when my First Sergeant was away at First Sergeants School. Both were temporary assignments of course. Technically, the First Sergeant Position is above the Master Sergeant within the company. But a Temporary First Sergeant better beware if he/she pushes a Master Sergeant around with her/his temporary position.

Response by SFC Antonio Nieto made Jul 14 at 2018 4:36 PM

2018-07-14T16:36:30-04:00

Command authority

Response by MSG Danny Mathers made Jul 14 at 2018 4:59 PM

2018-07-14T16:59:25-04:00

I have a bit to add myself, Special Forces, Special Mission Units & Special Operations work at a different structure. Companys are managed by a SGM and Team Sergeants & Team Leaders are a MSG. There are very few 1SG slots in such units and are assigned at a Detachment level or at a Special Warfare School with the 1SG duties. NCOIC are a SGM position. The 1SG are considered staff position and a MSG is operational. The CSM positions is only at Detachment or Group positions. However, promotion wise the 1SG has higher considerations at promotion boards. Most MSGs prefer to remain on teams which the slot for 1SG is a ticket puncher to CSM. That was more or less the structure in my day but things change. Most of which I believe is the same today.

Response by 1SG L Magdangal made Jul 16 at 2018 5:17 PM

2018-07-16T17:17:55-04:00

Your curiosity is not without merit. However, you may find your answer locally from your unit and within your NCO chain.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2018 11:26 PM

2018-07-19T23:26:16-04:00

Similar to what has already been said the same difference as a SPC and a CPL only at a higher level. The biggest difference is that as a CPL, the Department of the Army can appoint you the rank of CPL which you would not lose unless you are punished and go back to being a SPC, where as a MSG when appointed to the rank and position of 1SG and they finish that assignment and move on to another unit they go back automatically to being a MSG. There isn't a permanent assignment to being a 1SG. Each unit they go to has to appoint them to the position. Also a SFC Promotable can be "frocked" to the position and wear the rank of a 1SG without the pay of an E-8 but all the duties and responsibilities of the position and the rank attached to it.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Jul 21 at 2018 6:13 AM

2018-07-21T06:13:50-04:00

A First Sargent runs the Company, and is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Company Commander. A Master Sargent might be in charge of one of the Battalion's "S" sections, or for example When I was stationed at Fort Lee as an instructor, The Petroleum Supply Specalist School had a Sargent Major, and a Master Sargent as his second.

Response by MAJ Gregory Moon made Jul 22 at 2018 8:38 PM

2018-07-22T20:38:38-04:00

Both are Pay grade E-8. The First Sergeant is a Leadership position at the company level. Master Sargeants are generally more staff related position. The MSG may be senior NCO like an Operatons Sergeant in a Detachment or Battalion or higher Staff section. Once a First Sergeant moves out of the position he becomes a master sergeant. There is a similar situation with Sergeant Majors. There are Command Sergeant Majors and Sergeant Majors. The CSM is a command position. Both are the right hands of their respective commander and generally speak with the authority of the commander.

Response by SPC Daniel Rankin made Jul 27 at 2018 11:01 PM

2018-07-27T23:01:05-04:00

One usually is an office worker while the other is not. The 1st Sgt is usually out with the company. While the MSG is in an office doing all the paper work or with the Cpt or another officer.

Response by SGT Virgil Pritchett made Aug 8 at 2018 10:40 AM

2018-08-08T10:40:29-04:00

It's kinda like SPC. And CPL.

Response by 1SG Tony Reaux made Sep 17 at 2018 6:12 PM

2018-09-17T18:12:03-04:00

yes, they get paid the same as a E8, but 1SG is a position of leadership like the CO, so yes a 1SG outranks a MSG.

Response by 1SG Leon Espe made May 6 at 2019 8:06 AM

2019-05-06T08:06:27-04:00

I retired 48 years ago in 1971 so I do not know what the current regulations are. In 1971 when I retired a First Sergeant was appointed the ranking enlisted man regardless of time in grade or time in service of any other E8s in the Company. Since I was First Sergeant of Headquarters Company and the Battalion Sergeant Major (E9) was a member it was customary that he attend formations when I requested although not required. I did not experience any problems on that score the 3 years I was First Sergeant. My retirement Orders and Retired ID Card indicate my rank as 1SG E8.

Response by A1C Tim Rohrer made Nov 14 at 2020 9:37 PM

2020-11-14T21:37:45-05:00

I would wounder if all this matters when the real s. Hits the fan