What do you think of the latest revision to the IET soldiers handbook?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 23:17:53 -0500

I have been out of the Army for a while, but for some reason I was interested in seeing what changes have been made to the way we train our soldiers since I first signed up back in 2005. So I googled the latest version of TRADOC PAM 600-4, revised in 2014. I looked looked it over, and (as much as I hate being negative) I was not pleased at all.

Within the very first pages of it's content goes straight into preaching about sexual harassment and suicide prevention, then it's re-emphasized several times throughout. Yes we know it's wrong, but I just got this feeling like it immediately starts victimizing recruits.

Another thing I notice is that it hardly portrays the standards that new recruits should be expected to live up to. It doesn't go over anything about our current US weapons systems, and how to properly use and maintain them. UCMJ and Army Values are only briefly touched on, then it barely explains battle drills, TTP's, ect...

It does go over the usual like customs and curiosities, appearance, hygiene and what not.

To me we are still very much at war. It seems we not forging our soldiers to be battle minded, then MOS second like the Marines do. It's like we are coddling and putting them in environments where they expect to be babysat. I read my first IET handbook front to back, and got a very clear picture of who I was supposed to be. Combat minded.

What are your thoughts?

Update: I just want to point out that I'm not saying sexual harassment, EO, and suicide prevention shouldn't be address. You don't take them lightly, because it has a serious effect on command climate, and unit cohesion. In my rotation we did cover these things, but it was only a matter of just don't do it, and everything will be good. I am just saying that when recruits come into BCT you want them motivated. You want them to have confidence in themselves to be a combat ready soldier no mater what their job is, not scared to death to look at someone of the opposite sex, and not even giving them the idea of suicide in the first place, but letting them know to address it if they do. Just don't let these things take away a ridiculous amount of time from the rest of the training.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 29 at 2015 11:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 23:31:37 -0500

Is a new "Armee".

I haven't see it but I get the picture when I see the new soldiers around post. No discipline at all. We are doomed.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Nov 30 at 2015 12:06 AM

CSM Carl Cunningham — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:06:52 -0500

SGT Private RallyPoint Member, The first thing is that TRADOC 350-6 dictates how we train Soldiers. That is the real document you should be evaluating between now and when you joined. We do train Soldiers very differently now because we had to evolve as an Army. Now, you will most likely NOT be able to find TRADOC 350-6. Last I checked they do not publish it publicly anymore, which is probably for the best.

As far as sexual harrassment and suicide prevention, those are the Army's two major issues with young Soldiers (probably next to non-deployability). The Army has to do its due diligence in ensure that we train young Soldiers as early as possible to ensure they report such issues.

Lastly, just because something is in a publication, does not mean it is always followed. You should know that from your time in the Army.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 30 at 2015 12:25 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:25:57 -0500

I agree. I've felt babysat for the last 3 years asfar as work is concerned. More of the 9 to 5 vibe or even worse slavery/indentured servant than a family feeling, profession, or warrior brotherhood. That could be just me though.

Response by SSG William Egan made Dec 1 at 2015 7:28 AM

SSG William Egan — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 07:28:29 -0500

HOORAH. I 100% AGREE AND TY FOR SAYING IT. I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR JOB IS IN THE MILITARY BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE CRUCIBLE IN ALL BRANCHES. PREPARED

Response by SSG Mannix Brooks made Dec 1 at 2015 10:20 AM

SSG Mannix Brooks — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 10:20:51 -0500

I agree with the fact that training on how to be a soldier should be the first things they are taught and those subjects should be within a chapter called something like "social responsibilities of a soldier, team and unit". Doing it the way it's set up is a knee jerk reaction to the fact with social media, problems are out there before anybody has a chance to come up with a solution. There are going to be women in combat units but they were already in combat in today's 360 degree battlefields so the potential is there for more problems so troops need to know upfront what not to do, what to do to to prevent and what to do when sexual harassment or worse assault happens. The days of reporting every suicide as a non combat injury are gone when people know what happened and have social media to relay that information. Gone are the days of just sending the victim of a sexual assault or sexual harassment to another unit to save a units "reputation" and quietly prosecuting the perpetrator or in some cases a quiet retirement or slap on the wrist. Unfortunately waiting until a soldier finishes basic and AIT before they get a full immersion in training about these issues is not good enough these days they need it upfront.

Response by SPC James Dollins made Dec 1 at 2015 11:09 AM

SPC James Dollins — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 11:09:05 -0500

I TOTALLY agree! When I went through basic in '02 @ Knox, our drills were in our face, & a hair away from decking us. That would've been 'technically' wrong, BUT.. I don't think anyone would've said anything, not even me! That's just the way it went!
The Troops that followed me fell into the 'kindler, gentler Army that it is today. The Army where the kids coming in just wanted to go to school for cheap & skate on through their 4 or 6 years. Trying to get by w/ doing the least amount of work possible! Total garbage if you ask me, & I'm sure it's only gotten worse since I got out the end of '12.

Response by SSgt James Cottrell made Dec 1 at 2015 12:27 PM

SSgt James Cottrell — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 12:27:53 -0500

Thats what happens when a community organizer is given the job of commander in chief.

Response by SPC William Weedman made Dec 1 at 2015 3:48 PM

SPC William Weedman — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 15:48:30 -0500

My IET book is from 1988 so I would guess seeing the current book would be a shock to an old soldier. We were still training for the Red Army threat doctrine. So what happened to the classroom talks we had then? I remember hearing about Cold War doctrine, money management, STDs, and a variety of other topics in classroom time. I would suspect that there is time in the training cycle to sit troops down and discuss sexual harassment (I think we got that as a part of STD class) & suicide prevention, if needed bring it into the reception area, I believe we got a few classroom talks there.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Dec 1 at 2015 6:16 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 18:16:37 -0500

This must be a generation thing, we covered everything in the TRADOC pam 600-4 with one exception. We had Drill Sgt.'s, they covered everything. They instilled the fear of God into you. Their word was as good as gold.. As far as sexual Harassment went, you didn't do it. If you didn't learn that through upbringing you are lost. I look at it like this, if you didn't want it to happen to your sister you didn't do it.

Is the Army Evolving or regressing if you have to be told what is right and what is wrong. Everyone knows what right looks like. that should be hit on one time. If you have to be told again, it is time to find another profession.

99% of your time should be focused on training to do your duty.
I went through Basic Training in 1980, one of my Drill Sgt.'s was a Vietnam Vet, he made a believer out of you. Even at that time I thought the Army was lax compared to what I thought it would be.
The Army needs to quit coddling these civilians, either make them Soldiers or send them packing.
The civilian joined the Army not the other way around

Response by SSG William Kimbrell made Dec 1 at 2015 8:06 PM

SSG William Kimbrell — Tue, 01 Dec 2015 20:06:43 -0500

I was a Drill SGT at Ft Jackson SC from 1975-1978 . I want waste your time with tells of the good old days. Lets just say night and day.I would say the job is much harder today, we knew our job and had the backing of the Army.

Response by SSG Red Hoffman made Dec 2 at 2015 7:31 AM

SSG Red Hoffman — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 07:31:49 -0500

You found a copy of this document online and did not add the link to your post? It would have been nice to have so that I (and others) could review it before we gave our 'thoughts' on the matter. That being said, I can agree with what you have written for the most part, but I would like to check out the document before I give my thoughts. I will get back to you after I have looked at the updated version.

Response by SSG Red Hoffman made Dec 2 at 2015 7:36 AM

SSG Red Hoffman — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 07:36:37 -0500

http://www.tradoc.army.mil/tpubs/pams/TP600-4withChange1.pdf

FYI

Table of Contents
Page
Forward ...........................................................................i
Soldier Information .......................................................... ii
My Battle Buddy is…...................................................... iii
My Sexual Harassment/Assault Response & Prevention
(SHARP) Program Contacts .......................................... iii
Basic Combat Training (BCT) Calendar ........................ iv
Introduction......................................................................9
Chapter 1 – The Army .................................................12
1-1. Why we have an Army........................................13
1-2. What the Army uniform represents .....................16
1-3. Why We Serve ....................................................17
1-4. The Army’s Motto – “This We’ll Defend”..............17
1-5. Oath of Enlistment ..............................................18
Chapter 2 – The Army as a Profession .....................20
2-1. The Army Profession ..........................................20
2-2 What it means to be a Soldier..............................21
2-3. How We Conduct Ourselves...............................22
2-4. Who We Are Not .................................................23
2-5. The Army’s Commitment to You.........................24
2-6. The Journey Begins ............................................25
Chapter 3 – The Reception Battalion ........................26
3-1. The Path..............................................................26
3-2. Critical Information Needed Upfront ...................29
3-3 . The Battle Buddy System ..................................29

The first page from the Table of Contents.

This document really starts with the basics as it should. The introduction of suicide and sexual harassment are important with the realities we are facing with society today. I was in the Army when men and women soldiers were separated during initial training like BCT. Times have changed, so I would say this document should have had the part about sexual harassment long before you joined.

As far as suicide goes....this is a very disparaging issue that has become a major problem for our soldiers and their families. I am saddened that you may think this should be a secondary training point. Teaching our soldiers to recognize suicidal traits in themselves and their fellow soldiers could save a life one day. If they can recognize feelings and/or actions which could be signs of any mental illness which could lead to harm to themselves or others, then I believe it should be part of this handbook.

Just my thoughts....

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Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Dec 2 at 2015 9:16 AM

SFC Jim Ruether — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 09:16:50 -0500

I agree 100% with Sgt. Gibler's assessment of the new IET soldiers manual. It has no balls. I would appreciate the author contacting this forum and explaining themselves. This is a mamby pamby, coddling, milk toast document that tells the soldier that he or she is weak already before they even start training. What is the ARMY doing about this to correct it. I still have my soldiers manual from my basic back in 82' if they want to see what a real IET Manual looks like. They have weapons identification and capabilities, first aid, Rank Structure, how to employ a claymore mine, types of grenades. Who is this new IET Manual intended for? The emotionally weak or the Sexual predator or both? I am reasonably sure the populace that the ARMY has to draw from is the same as when I went in. Young Patriotic Americans with a sense of duty to serve their country. The quality type of individual that America has produced for centuries and will continue to produce with parents like the forum participants I see and communicate with on this site on a regular basis. The ARMY needs to man up here and when I say this I mean no discrimination to the female soldiers in the ARMY. I just feel that we need to maintain a strong military and this IET manual assumes the crowd we are drawing from are weak minded and emotionally unstable. Not True!

Response by SP5 John Pratt made Dec 3 at 2015 5:45 AM

SP5 John Pratt — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 05:45:44 -0500

You were lucky to even have anything in writing that you could refer to, when I was in the Army (1966-1977) we didn't have that. We had to learn everything from the drill sergeant in basic and AIT.

Response by SGT Joseph Schmalzel made Dec 3 at 2015 9:23 AM

SGT Joseph Schmalzel — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 09:23:25 -0500

I was in 96 to 05. The Army is screwed. I come from a native American background of warriors. That means I wanted to kill the enemy and ROE could go to hell. I stood at parade rest for anyone who out ranked me and attention for officers.
By the time I got out soldiers were calling me by my first name and I was being treated like a private by my 1SG. I was a SGT. a leader of soldiers. But, the structure went to shit.
I cannot even imagine what is going on now with the liberal/deranged Army. Sounds like a playground for children. Instead of a band of warriors.
I worked in construction before I joined. I was use to early mornings and hard labor. BCT pissed me off because it was full of people with no war spirit. And, nobody was given the boot. When it was clear they could not hack.
I was kicked out because a private (a drug addict) threatened to shoot me. At Brook Army Medical Center. I beat his ass just like anyone would do in the face of danger.
So I guess the Army can go limping along. With its uber liberal mamby pansy BS. Bunch of wimps is what comprise the majority of our military now. Don't ask me how I really feel.

Response by SPC Evan Smith made Dec 3 at 2015 10:18 AM

SPC Evan Smith — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 10:18:02 -0500

i completely agree with you brother, i joined up in '06 and i knew what i had to do, but nowadays it seems like the famed "stress card" isn't just a rumor anymore but an actual part of BCT. (lmao and wanting to stab my eyes out at same time)

Response by SGT Rudy Gibson made Dec 3 at 2015 12:32 PM

SGT Rudy Gibson — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 12:32:21 -0500

I have a unique perspective on this issue. My job is to assist the veteran after military service. The younger veterans and I'm talking up to 30 years old. So many times I see the veteran and they have a sense of entitlement. I hear, "I deserve" over and over again. Its frustrating because there is a lack of accountability, arrogance and plain selfishness from these younger veterans. I have heard about the stress card and basically the training "time outs". I really think the military should go back to teaching values, ethics, morals, pride, training, accountability etc...

Response by SFC Fernando Campos made Dec 3 at 2015 4:04 PM

SFC Fernando Campos — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 16:04:34 -0500

You and I are dinosaurs - They are training little boys now, where the Drill Sgt cannot yell at them too much, etc, etc, etc - I was in a men only unit for 12 years - we need an Army of MEN, not boys - There is a place and time for harrassment and suicide topics, but those will not help you stay alive in the battlefield. You dont need to apologize, being realistic is not being negative.

Response by SGT Eric Kesseler made Dec 3 at 2015 8:34 PM

SGT Eric Kesseler — Thu, 03 Dec 2015 20:34:31 -0500

I think one of the major problems with the kinder and gentler Army is they try to apply one solution to handle all sorts of different problems. One major challenge is you almost have to dumb everything down so the least intelligent soldiers have a chance of grasping a particular concept. Prime example, when I was a SPC with two deployments under my belt, I had a younger and less experienced SGT as my team leader. I was married with 3 kids and he had to inspect my vehicle for safety and proper insurance and registration. I get that you have to verify compliance, but I was a grown ass man who was trusted to man machine guns and lead patrols in combat. I could also be trusted to PMCS an actual Army vehicle and operate it, but I had to be inspected like a toddler in regards to my POV? As annoying as it was to me, it is made necessary by the jack holes that drive around with no insurance or expired tags. Just my two cents. And talking about focusing on war-fighting, that IS our number one priority. Shoot, move, and communicate. Our IET should be focused on making everyone a warrior first, then their MOS training second.

Response by SPC Heather Tischbirek made Dec 4 at 2015 11:38 AM

SPC Heather Tischbirek — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 11:38:11 -0500

I would think they'd revise to leave that out so that kind of information isn't out there for terrorists to get their hands on. Like you said, you looked it up online. So could the enemy. It's probably wise to do that, I'm sure they are getting the standard weapons training and so forth, just so terrorists don't get the training too!

Response by SPC Gerald Ort made Dec 4 at 2015 2:10 PM

SPC Gerald Ort — Fri, 04 Dec 2015 14:10:40 -0500

I was at amcClellan in 1984. They beat your ass but did respect you and your limits. Dam great DI's especially SSG. Wasser. Others were just plain sadistic. On fire guard one would sneak up and grab you. They would stomp your feet or rake ur shins with their boots. We didnt biotch out.

Response by SPC Stacey Lowell made Dec 9 at 2015 5:25 PM

SPC Stacey Lowell — Wed, 09 Dec 2015 17:25:19 -0500

Certainly times have changed for the military since the Vietnam/Post Vietnam era. Back when I served in the 80s there were a few people (like myself) who delt with bad experiences through drink or whathaveyou, but by and large no one was committing suicide in that era...It is strange what warfare (or, in this case - endless warefare) can do to a soldier's morale and ability to cope. And having a girlfriend (or boyfriend now) and there is Jody standing in the wings to take your place while you are on an exercise or deployment was never good for morale...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2015 3:35 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Dec 2015 15:35:06 -0500

I didn't get a handbook when I was in BCT.