What do you think contributes to the decline/lack of leadership within our formations?

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:19:17 -0400

Response by LTC John Shaw made May 8 at 2015 3:24 PM

LTC John Shaw — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:24:32 -0400

1SG Private RallyPoint Member I don't believe the millennial generation puts as much value in leadership. They don't want to be leaders or followers, just a natural result of the cynical distrust of institutions they are raised with and taught.

Leadership why bother, you don't get paid more and it sucks up all your time as a result.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:23 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:23:32 -0400

Forced progressivism and trying to be too PC.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:25 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:25:46 -0400

The Army always preaches leadership but as a whole we do a very bad job of teaching it! For some, leadership comes naturally and they advance quickly. For others however, it must be taught. We need to think more like the civilian sector and host leadership seminars and courses. Some PME courses have begun to incorporate leadership concepts into their curriculum which a step in the right direction but we really need to start teaching this from the beginning of ones career so by the time they are given leadership responsibility they are up for the challenge!

Response by SPC Nate Lamphier made May 8 at 2015 3:27 PM

SPC Nate Lamphier — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:27:48 -0400

From my personal experience, I worked under a few different Sergeants that were content with earning their stripes. Once they did that, they just wanted to ride out their time. I served with two Sergeants who had 10 plus years TIG. For anyone motivated in making the most of their Army careers, this was not hard to pick up on. I saw instances where Soldiers under these guys adapted that same mentality and I saw some overcome it.

This would lead to another area that I see as a problem. That being respect. You do not have to like your first-line (at any job) but what you have to do is respect them. Respect is not just a one way street either. Respect goes both ways.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:29 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:29:37 -0400

From a leadership perspective, we need to stop teaching, this is what it means to be a soldier, this is what it means to be an NCO, this is what it means to be an Officer, and begin teaching what it means to be a leader! Leadership concepts are the same no matter what rank or position you hold!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 8 at 2015 3:37 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:37:40 -0400

I will blame their leaders. The subordinate leaders are given expectations to meet, and to be enforced by superiors.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:41 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:41:00 -0400

I think there's a two main contributing factors. First is the "zero defects" mentality we've adopted. People are hesitant to make a decision or speak their mind because one mistake can cost someone their career. The second is directly tied to the first. We've gone beyond risk mitigation to risk averse. Our profession contains an inherent amount of risk, some of which you can't mitigate. Yet we still hold leaders accountable when something beyond their control causes a problem. With a single mistake ending a career it follows that leaders are unwilling to accept risk and our troops suffer because of it.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made May 8 at 2015 3:49 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:49:54 -0400

Militaries fight wars. When wars end militaries have crises of purpose.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 3:55 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:55:48 -0400

I am hostile to anyone with these kinds of threads where these generalizations take place and then blindly accepted. We do not need civilians with agendas and we do need to straighten up with regards to personal responsibility and stop with SHARP training (get something better - not Civilian-led) and the "need" for Transgender just to have transgender. For the transgender, any harassment should end today with no exceptions and for all people of all persuasions not accepting harassment for their own personal beliefs.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 8 at 2015 3:57 PM

SFC Stephen King — Fri, 08 May 2015 15:57:13 -0400

When you become a NCO your job is the be a leader. Be the best example you can. You need to know that sometimes you must follow to lead. Do your best to provide guidance, motivation and direction. Numerous threads and topics are addressing only decline. We as NCO's are the standard bearers. If you something that needs to addressed, corrected or fixed step up. 22 years and counting I will continue to strive for excellence in my NCO's and Officer's

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 8 at 2015 4:06 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 08 May 2015 16:06:16 -0400

I have been in 32 years, and I won't say this is a simple answer, several things have contributed to this. Equipment: we create equipment like it was meant for an X-box, we are developing more and more equipment to be millennial compliant as opposed to being war fighter ready. Todays troops have never experience true hardships, they want do overs, their parents never yelled at them, never said anything stern at them. Half of the ones we get with in one year we are looking at chaptering them out for PT failure.

The other that truly bothers me, and I saw this grow more and more over the years. Your not looking out for your soldiers BS. It has gotten beyond foolish. There comes a point in time where the troop is responsible for the things they do and don't do. Not every NCO is bad because Snuffy did some stupid stuff, hell Snuffy is going to stupid stuff. We have made the art of war more like an act of loading people on a small yellow bus to the special Olympics we have dumbed it down that badly.

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 8 at 2015 4:07 PM

SFC Stephen King — Fri, 08 May 2015 16:07:36 -0400

Lack of intestinal fortitude. Step up lead or get out.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 4:09 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 16:09:05 -0400

Mentorship has been falling by the wayside. Ultimately, it is our responsibility as leaders to help mentor the next generation, but I think that the cutbacks have created a "political climate" where the information is gleaned from mentorship is being either intentionally withheld or unintentionally overlooked instead of focusing on teaching those below us and trusting ourselves and those above us to help with our own career progression.

It is easy to blame the millennial generation, but the fact is that I've watched the lack of mentorship on those that are even 40+ years old. Politics may be a necessary evil, but I do not believe that the advancement of our career should come at the expense of standing up for what is right, nor should it ever come on the backs of those that we are tasked to lead.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by SFC Stephen King made May 8 at 2015 4:22 PM

SFC Stephen King — Fri, 08 May 2015 16:22:43 -0400

"Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.” Vince Lombardi

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 8 at 2015 4:24 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 08 May 2015 16:24:51 -0400

Not sure I'm willing to buy into your assumption. I think there are superior leaders in our formations today, yesterday and tomorrow. IF one sees a decline or lack of leadership around them, what an excellent opportunity to step show what excellent leadership looks like?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2015 5:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 08 May 2015 17:16:39 -0400

At roughly the 4:30 mark of this video, ethnographer and leadership expert, Simon Sinek, said that leaders (like the 'Johnny Bravo' depicted in his opening story) aren't BORN....but, rather, are actually MADE.

This seems to imply that a key element to leadership is simply TIME--the time to learn, grow, etc.

If leadership is perceived to be on the decline in our formations now, not to sound negative, but I will venture a guess that it will continue to decline.

Why?

The big disconnect between military leaders, and politicians, I believe, is that they don't necessarily grasp the idea of "time" being required to develop and cultivate leaders and leadership.

Just look at some of the things that they are pushing for.

A radical change proposed to the retirement system?

I've seen arguments both for and against the transitioning from the 20-year military retirement, to a 401K type retirement, but, from a LEADERSHIP standpoint, I do think that 20-year military retirement was necessary to keep and incentivize Soldiers to stay in the service longer...to build and cultivate their leadership, over time.

Noone starts their career in the military as a Patton or Eisenhower, and, although a 401K type retirement would arguably be more 'fair' to those who will be getting out of the service BEFORE 20 years (so, essentially, they don't leave with nothing at all...), this seems to be at serious odds with the element of TIME required to build leaders.

What I forsee happening in the future is, not only our seasoned leaders leaving with natural attrition (retirement, etc), but, I also see Soldiers doing their initial stint, paying into their 401K, and then leaving. In my honest opinion, it would seem like the idea of the 'career Soldier' is going out the window....just as Soldiers are gaining necessary leadership experience--when they REALLY start to become valuable to the Army (i.e. when the government really begins to reap their investment), the proposed retirement system seems to incentivize them to leave early (rather than stay longer).

I, personally, think it is important to have a bit of a distant dangling carrot.

I think that 'leadership', as many of us have come to know it, will erode and dissipate with some of the policies/changes that are being pushed for nowadays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReRcHdeUG9Y

Simon Sinek: Why Leaders Eat Last

About this presentation In this in-depth talk, ethnographer and leadership expert Simon Sinek reveals the hidden dynamics that inspire leadership and trust. ...

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made May 8 at 2015 5:32 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Fri, 08 May 2015 17:32:13 -0400

The same thing that attributes the lack of leadership in Govt. People have become complacent in Americas security. They take it for granted. People are joining now for the educational opportunities or because they have nothing better to do. Fewer people are joining because they want to serve.

Most every country that has ever existed has been toppled from within. I fear this attitude has taken hold here and with some of our allies.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 12:45 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 00:45:13 -0400

Post on here such as the one about not having your pockets unbuttoned is a prime example. A standard is a standard. While some may seem small and we may not agree with all of them it's our job as NCOs to enforce them. If you leave your back pocket unbuttoned because you are in and out of it all day to get your wallet what other standards are you willing to let slide for convenience. Leaders looked at me like I was crazy performing an in ranks inspection after first formation Monday morning. I don't do it to be a dick, I do it because Soldiers respect the fact that you care and they take pride in knowing they can now conduct an in ranks inspection to standard better than the majority of the SSGs in the unit.

Am I always right, absolutely not but I damn sure don't want a Soldier let alone a Senior NCO who finds the need to justify leaving pockets unbuttoned leading troops. It's these same individuals who are quick to jump all over someone for something such as a hair cut. 670-1 does not prioritize standards so enforce them all to the best of your ability.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 2:15 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 02:15:20 -0400

Officers - There is a lack of development from NCOs at the platoon leader level. There is a zero defect mentality that requires "self-preservation" in order to climb the ladder. The "two levels down" model is not followed, BN CDRs do a poor job of counseling/mentoring their platoon leaders, BDE CDRs do a poor job of counseling/mentoring their CO CDRs, etc, etc. There is a lack of knowledge on how to properly use/relate to the NCO (lack of development at the platoon level). Lack of understanding of, or improperly implementing the mission command philosophy.

NCOs - There is a lack of development at the platoon sergeant level from the CSM (two levels down model). "It's all about me mentality", Soldiers come after I get airborne, air assault, ranger schools. etc. Very young and inexperienced SSGs, SFCs, 1SGs that know combat duties extremely well but lack training management/taking care of Soldier skills. A general lack of "seeing the bigger picture".

What both Corps have in common that is leading to poor leadership is a serious lack in discipline and enforcing standards. The increasing inability to work together toward a common goal (The Profession of Arms) is counterproductive to the Army's mission. It reminds me a lot of the Democratic and Republican political parties, almost to the point of making me sick to my stomach.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 9 at 2015 1:10 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 09 May 2015 13:10:28 -0400

To be a well oiled machine it requires NCO's at the top to tell the subordinate NCO's what the expectations and standards are, and this rolls down hill. They have to buy into this system or gaps of leadership will occur. We need the total commitment by NCO's to conduct operations, monitor, train, and take care of the troops.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2015 2:44 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 May 2015 14:44:26 -0400

As far as I'm concerned there is no decline in leadership; the service has always had issues, we're just able to hear about everything that goes on now. Result of instantaneous news and the publics desire to know everything that happens. People also care more about personal moral failings, which I think is a good thing.

Take GEN Patton for example. He carried on an affair with his wife's niece, an Army nurse, during the campaign in Europe in WW2. Everyone on his staff knew about it, but no one cared because it wasn't publicly known. Today a story like this would get out and it would be a major scandal.

Response by SSgt Chris Lambert made May 10 at 2015 8:49 AM

SSgt Chris Lambert — Sun, 10 May 2015 08:49:26 -0400

Pay, punitive environment, lack of education

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 10 at 2015 9:00 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 10 May 2015 09:00:52 -0400

"For the want of a nail the shoe was lost,
For the want of a shoe the horse was lost,
For the want of a horse the rider was lost,
For the want of a rider the battle was lost,
For the want of a battle the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe-nail.”
- Ben Franklin

Little things add up to big things. Standards and discipline lost in one generation equals leadership challenges and failure in the next. Just look back over time and ask yourself what is different today versus 30-50-75 years ago.

I see many posts about NCO's not being able to get undisciplined troops in line, a lack of standards, discipline and focus in the ranks. This did not happen overnight, it happened because leaders years ago let standards slip, then slip again and again. A blind eye was turned and here we are complaining about the outcome.

The fix is not easy. It will require going back to harder standards, more discipline and more rigor. A dog that has been on a long leash never wants to go back to a short one.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 11:07 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 May 2015 11:07:57 -0400

This whole new army bit with no hazing, hug your soldier, cant "smoke" joe, carebear fairydust peterpan never want to grow up bullcrap has ruined the army. We were better as an organization when we were hardened, physically and mentally tough, and gave zero shits about "feelings" if you want to have feelings and be told that your awesome, go be a barista at starbucks.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2015 3:54 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 May 2015 15:54:21 -0400

The allowance of civilian influance on militarized discipline.

We are not sheep. We are a killing machine! Don't fix what isn't broken!

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made May 18 at 2015 11:13 AM

SSG Jacob Wiley — Mon, 18 May 2015 11:13:36 -0400

1SG Private RallyPoint Member Sorry, just saw this. Many MOS/areas of the Army lack good leadership. Our place of duty is by far the absolute worst I have ever seen. This doesn't feel like the Army, I am not a Soldier - I sit here in a work outfit, that's it.

Biggest problem is that these self-serving individuals working under the guise of "being leaders" are too worried about their next step and not the NOW. Be a good leader to your subordinates NOW, make the difference NOW, do the right things NOW. Doing NOW ensures that a reputation will precede that individual - and said future will be a success. Too many are worried about only whats ahead - "my next position...what can i do to make myself look like a rock star for my next position". You've seen the answers: inability to make a decision without consulting three other people whom have no business in the matter at hand, brushing work onto other people so there is more time for "me" - it's a shit show.

Being intermingled with a civilian work force and being required to attend meeting after meeting to hear about issues that can only pertain to them (O/T pay, comp days, MICC 2025, other hirings, TDY incentives, etc.) - really? This isn't Soldiers business...why are we here? Supporting you? We are a group as a whole? Outstanding - lets go to PT now as a whole group, lets go police call the area as a group, lets clean out old files, move things into a new building as a group - what? What's that? Oh they can't, because that isn't why they are here? Funny...I thought a minute ago we were all one big team?

Is it a civilian office or a military unit which also employs civilians? Is the commander in charge, or the deputy director? Am I in the military and have things I must accomplish because the Army says so (350-1 training, keep green in medpros, PT, weapons, SRP) or am I a contract specialist and nothing else in the world matters? Obviously, I cannot be both at the same time because one side thinks theirs is more important than the other.

I could ramble on and on, and on. What contributes to the decline/lack of leadership within our formations? Lack of balls. The inability to say yes/no or take a stance without worrying about what others are going to say/think/do. Once we can hammer out (won't happen) if we are Soldiers or simply "staff", then we can go from there. Then again....if we are going to be "Soldiers", then we need to start doing Soldier shit, with the same structured schedule (PT, chow, donsa, duty hours) as Soldiers - like the entire rest of this post.

Response by SGT David T. made May 18 at 2015 11:28 AM

SGT David T. — Mon, 18 May 2015 11:28:22 -0400

First and foremost is leadership failures. Leaders are not developed effectively and often times promoted too fast (although every so often we get lucky and have a good one). As others have stated the zero defect mentality which leads leadership to treat their troops like children instead of the professional adults that they are. If Soldiers are treated like children they will act like children. However, if they are treated like adults, which includes holding them accountable for their actions and rewarding good performance, you just might be surprised by the difference. It's no secret that many leaders in the military lack people skills and demand respect. Respect for the rank and position is inherent (most of the time), but for a leader to develop a well disciplined and effective subordinate respect must be earned. Respect and trust are two way streets. If the leader does not respect or trust their troops then their troops will not reciprocate. Sure they will stand with their hand behind their back and say yes Sergeant, no Sergeant, but they will not respect the person. If the troops really respect the leader, as a person and as a leader and no just the rank and position, they will want to do the right thing more so because they will not want to let that leader down. Just my 2 cents based on my limited experience as a NCO way back when.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2015 4:18 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2015 16:18:29 -0400

I am glad that you can see this also. This is something plagues the Army. I have been in the military just about 14 years now. I have seen the pre-war Army. It was far different than what we have now. The GWOT hurt the ranks greatly. We let in soldiers that weren't really up to par. They have performed well in combat but this is about all that they focused on. Professional development took a back seat to combat readiness. Now we have senior NCOs that lack the professionalism that is required. I have seen it first hand. As my colleagues have stated I came to my unit as a prior service officer and had to train my PSG on how to be a PSG. It should have been the other way around. My mind was blown. The basics were not there. He could get something done but drudging through it isn't how it should be done.

I will tell you that officer development is not there either. I have had to seek help from others outside of my command. RP is a great resources for me and this has greatly excelled my development. I am thankful for all of those here that have helped me. But if it wasn't for this I would pretty much be screwed. There are so much that I have learned. I seek out to develop myself. But there are other out there that have no clue what they don't know. But they like to keep it that way so they think they know it all.

Response by SGT Richard H. made May 22 at 2015 12:03 AM

SGT Richard H. — Fri, 22 May 2015 00:03:35 -0400

Simply put...because people who are supposed to be leaders accept it.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 22 at 2015 12:07 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 22 May 2015 00:07:52 -0400

First thing is nobody is entitled to promotions and leadership positions. They should be promoted for potential to succeed in that level. If they fail try to help them correct it. If you cannot put them back down a level. I see too many officers and NCOs who feel that they entitled to this or that or just because they have the time in grade think that they should be promoted. This mentality leads to let me get mine and then maybe I will help you get yours or using others to push their way up. That is selfish not leadership.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 4:02 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 16:02:53 -0400

1)The fact that we tout Sun Tsu's Art of War but never do any of the stuff in it due to political climate which causes us to be risk averse due to media/social response.

2) We promoted people quick and failed to develop them and now they are not developing others; we can fix this

3) We gave up Army tried and true methods of discipline in the face of legalese. "Beat your face!"; we can get it back

4) Our justice system under the UCMJ, by design allows a lot of leeway for commanders. This has lead to interesting results which does not always deter others from indiscipline: https://www.foia.army.mil/ReadingRoom/

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 5:03 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 17:03:39 -0400

The decline in leadership started during surge and when the army decided to give anyone rank and put power into the lower enlisted due to the decline in leaders who up hold the army values. It's all a lack of experience and trust

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 4 at 2018 7:50 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Wed, 04 Jul 2018 19:50:48 -0400

To much PC- seems like folks do not want to "hurt Feelings" by holding the line on regulations, and seniors seem to be to blasted worried about complaints against them, even if the are supercilious