Posted on Dec 15, 2015
What do you think about the US following in Israels foot steps and making it mandatory to serve two years at the age of 18?
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Personally, I think it's a GREAT idea. Once you turn 18 and if you are not a full time college student or disabled in any way etc....then both men and women should have to serve a minimum of two years.
I believe this would be great for the US...I think it will take the kids of today and tomorrow and instill some discipline into them...and maybe they'll learn humility.
It's working great for Israel and has been working for many years.
What say you RP members? Do you think this is a good idea or not?...and why?
Personally, I think it's a GREAT idea. Once you turn 18 and if you are not a full time college student or disabled in any way etc....then both men and women should have to serve a minimum of two years.
I believe this would be great for the US...I think it will take the kids of today and tomorrow and instill some discipline into them...and maybe they'll learn humility.
It's working great for Israel and has been working for many years.
What say you RP members? Do you think this is a good idea or not?...and why?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 43
Nope. Those two countries have complete different histories and challenges. Where would we put all those fresh bodies? I believe most of the branches are shrinking due to DoD budget cuts.
Then, it would be really delicate to compare the US population size with Israel's. According to the U.S Census Bureau, 7% of the American population falls in the age group 20-24. That represents more than 21M persons. Last estimation (2012) listed also 7% of the Israeli population in the same group, but that only equals less than 600k persons.
Moreover, you need to consider the geopolitic context. When was the last time we had been in need for soldiers to defend our national soil? I'm not talking about deployments.
Finally, today's conflicts aren't won by superior firepower but highly depend on intelligence and cyber. The idf's largest unit is שמונה-מאתיים (Shmoneh-Matayim, Unit 8200), a highly technical SIGINT unit. When 20% of our kids don't graduate high school (Dep. of Education), what place for them in tomorrow's Army?
There is a large consensus that the military instills discipline and humility. This is true. However, regarding the Army, its first goal is to fight, and win (SMA Dailey made a great speech about it during AUSA 2015). We can't do that with an inefficient army. A two years mandatory service will be inefficient, especially if it is modeled on the Israelis.
Then, it would be really delicate to compare the US population size with Israel's. According to the U.S Census Bureau, 7% of the American population falls in the age group 20-24. That represents more than 21M persons. Last estimation (2012) listed also 7% of the Israeli population in the same group, but that only equals less than 600k persons.
Moreover, you need to consider the geopolitic context. When was the last time we had been in need for soldiers to defend our national soil? I'm not talking about deployments.
Finally, today's conflicts aren't won by superior firepower but highly depend on intelligence and cyber. The idf's largest unit is שמונה-מאתיים (Shmoneh-Matayim, Unit 8200), a highly technical SIGINT unit. When 20% of our kids don't graduate high school (Dep. of Education), what place for them in tomorrow's Army?
There is a large consensus that the military instills discipline and humility. This is true. However, regarding the Army, its first goal is to fight, and win (SMA Dailey made a great speech about it during AUSA 2015). We can't do that with an inefficient army. A two years mandatory service will be inefficient, especially if it is modeled on the Israelis.
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SPC Donald Moore
1LT (Join to see) - You made some excellent points. I did a very quick Google search, I found (at the nces.ed.gov website) that the number of persons entering 9th grade in 2015 was 4.1 million. That should give us some idea how many people would be 18 years old a few years later, whether they graduate or not. If you put them in at 18 and make them spend two years, that would give you about twice that many in service at any given time. Can you imagine a military that had something like 8 MILLION personnel?
To put that in some perspective, there are about 318 million people in the US (total) and the military (active only, all branches, as of 2013) was about 1.4 million.
So, if all the current personal stayed, it would bring the total military from 1.4 million to around 9 and a half MILLION.
If I did my math right, and you only paid these extra 8 MILLION people $1000 a month as a salary, it would cost the government an extra $96,000,000,000 a year.
To put that in some perspective, there are about 318 million people in the US (total) and the military (active only, all branches, as of 2013) was about 1.4 million.
So, if all the current personal stayed, it would bring the total military from 1.4 million to around 9 and a half MILLION.
If I did my math right, and you only paid these extra 8 MILLION people $1000 a month as a salary, it would cost the government an extra $96,000,000,000 a year.
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1LT (Join to see)
Another thing, soldiers in Israel are paid peanuts.. Salary is 540NIS ($139) for non-combatant soldiers whereas combat soldiers are making 1067NIS ($275) a month.
If this is implemented, I give the country 2 days before a civil war.
If this is implemented, I give the country 2 days before a civil war.
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Sgt Kelli Mays Lots of countries do this. Russia, et al. I think it's a fantastic idea, and would really help with a lot of the sense of entitlement that Millennials seem to have....
....but, oh, the uproar if Congress really tried. It'll never happen.
....but, oh, the uproar if Congress really tried. It'll never happen.
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Sgt Kelli Mays
SN Greg Wright I didn't know Russia does it too. I truly believe that we should find a way to implement this. I believe it would make a better nation...stronger with more integrity.
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SGT Jerrold Pesz
Actually those drafted only served two years active duty in most cases although many did reenlist at the reception station in order to pick their MOS or school which extended their time on active duty to three years or more.
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SSgt Terry P.
SGT Jerrold Pesz - I stand corrected , you are right,it was only reservist who had to do 36 consecutive months .The active duty components were required 21--24 months.Thank you for the emendation.
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While I like the idea that there is are responsibilities that come with citizenship as well as rights, I don't think the Israeli model will work for us.....even if the only reason is that our population is much larger than Israel's and the amount of people we would have to process in every year.
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1LT (Join to see)
Sir, I believe the same.
Proportionally, both Israel and the United States have ~7% of their population in the age group 20-24. However, on one side it reflects some 600K persons, on the other it's somewhere above 21M.
Proportionally, both Israel and the United States have ~7% of their population in the age group 20-24. However, on one side it reflects some 600K persons, on the other it's somewhere above 21M.
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Sgt Kelli Mays I think it would be a good thing for America's youth (both women and men), but it will never happen in this country - just my opinion!
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SFC Terry Fortune
I like it, but I agree with Sgt. Kelli Mays statement. They would want a safe place in it got to hard for them.
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Sgt Kelli Mays - Your idea would put about 4 million new recruits a year int the military. If each of them only stays for the 2 year minimum, it would increase the total size of the military by around 8 million members. Current total of all branches (as of 2013) is 1.4 million. So, you want to make the military almost 6 times the current size? Really? Did you actually think about this?
The Israelis have a much smaller population and therefore need a proportionally higher percentage of personnel in the military.
The US is in no way equipped to accommodate that many personnel in service. A system like this was a total failure in the Soviet Union before it fell apart. Too many people in the military makes you need to "make work" for them and it costs the country a ton of money. The ridiculous military spending that the Soviets did was part of the reason for their collapse and the US needs to scale back spending on all fronts (social programs, foreign aid AND the military industrial complex) before we suffer an economic collapse also.
The Israelis have a much smaller population and therefore need a proportionally higher percentage of personnel in the military.
The US is in no way equipped to accommodate that many personnel in service. A system like this was a total failure in the Soviet Union before it fell apart. Too many people in the military makes you need to "make work" for them and it costs the country a ton of money. The ridiculous military spending that the Soviets did was part of the reason for their collapse and the US needs to scale back spending on all fronts (social programs, foreign aid AND the military industrial complex) before we suffer an economic collapse also.
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SGT Jimmy Carpenter
Don't get me wrong, I think that everyone should serve in the military. I think it teaches discipline, responsibility, respect, and leadership. The problem is forcing someone to do something they don't want to do could cause huge problems, especially on the battlefield where you're trusting the person to your left and to your right with your life.
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SGT Jimmy Carpenter
We had a guy that claimed conscientious objector status prior to going to Iraq in '03 because he refused to bear arms against his fellow Muslims. He thought he would get out of deploying but he was wrong. He was reassigned to our support unit where he did mostly radio watch. He was generally despised by pretty much everyone in our unit and from what I understand, he didn't have very many friends in his new unit either.
I know we've had the draft in previous wars but the "kids" back then were so much different than today's kids. I just don't know if I could trust a millennial to have my back.
I know we've had the draft in previous wars but the "kids" back then were so much different than today's kids. I just don't know if I could trust a millennial to have my back.
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MAJ Ken Landgren
I would not trust the bastard either. I have no experience with millennials, but I will make the comment which is not intended for just millennials. Those who see the world revolving around them will be selfish and self promoting. Those who understand they a part of a system will be more mature and sacrificing.
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I think one of the benefits that we have as a nation is that we are not surrounded by severe threats to our national security. Israel and South Korea are smaller countries with smaller populations and bigger threats. We are stronger because our military is a volunteer service, attracting those who want to serve. While obviously making mandatory 2 year service would certainly help mature and grow young people, I think the backlash would be far worse. We have enough issues today with drug use, sexual harassment, and toxic leadership, and those are with people who actually wanted to join the military in the first place. Mandatory enlistment should only be utilized in severe national security emergencies, in my opinion at least.
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Nope:
1. There are simply not enough billets to do this. We have a million man military (give or take). There are lots of people that stay in so the number of slots per year are pretty small.
2. Many/most of these folks would simply screw up the military worse than it already is today
3. We live in a free country, no one should be compelled to serve except during a time of national crisis perhaps.
1. There are simply not enough billets to do this. We have a million man military (give or take). There are lots of people that stay in so the number of slots per year are pretty small.
2. Many/most of these folks would simply screw up the military worse than it already is today
3. We live in a free country, no one should be compelled to serve except during a time of national crisis perhaps.
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It would be like the draft system of old. The elite and politically connected would have exemptions and the middle/under class would be cannon fodder. Our all volunteer force is the best way to go, unless there is a real national threat such as WWI/II. Its like the Obama ad for the Peace Corps being great and yet no one in the family is interested. A politician in the past made a statement regarding the Catholic Church (tongue in cheek commnet), "You no playa the game, you no maka the rules".
A National Service commitment, with no exceptions would be acceptable to me, that would result in college credit. But, again, we all know who would bet the best service jobs available. The rest of us would get the scraps. Darn, I'm in a good mood today.
A National Service commitment, with no exceptions would be acceptable to me, that would result in college credit. But, again, we all know who would bet the best service jobs available. The rest of us would get the scraps. Darn, I'm in a good mood today.
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