What changes would you make to the APFT if given the chance?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:34:17 -0500

Soldiers have a hard time taking an APFT and making height and weight all because they only are required to take one record APFT within a Fiscal year. Yes, they have to wiegh in twice a year, but what are your thoughts on this? How many times a year do you think we should we take an APFT? If you had to choose the events, what would they be?

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Jan 15 at 2014 3:39 PM

LTC Jason Bartlett — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:39:56 -0500

Yes, should be the same for all. My events<div><br></div><div>Push ups (1min)</div><div>Pull ups</div><div>1 mile run</div><div>Sit ups (1min)</div><div>This would be Army standard then I would have MOS specific</div><div><br></div>

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 2:16 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:16:28 -0500

I'm gonna probably go against the grain here but....no. For many different MOS' there are MANY different physical requirements. I'm sure there is thousands of bored officers and senior NCOs somewhere that would just love to spend the next couple of years coming up with a set standard for all the different MOS'. Now within those MOS' between M/F and different age groups? Yes their should be the same standard. To do the job of a 19D Cavalary Scout (My MOS) the physical requirements of putting removing and cleaning an M242 25mm Bushmaster cannon are the same whether you are male or female; or 19 years to 59. Still weighs 250 lbs no matter who you are.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 2:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:31:43 -0500

Yes I believe 101% in the scores being the same across the board. I know plenty of females that can run 2 miles in under 14 minutes and a handful that can do it in under 13 and get 300+ on their PT tests every time. I also know some pretty strong females that can out lift a lot of male soldiers in the Army.

I however, do not feel that it should be broken down into MOS specific standards.

WHY?

Because we are all soldiers FIRST regardless of what MOS we are in and we should all be able to pass the same standard to be a soldier FIRST.

MOS specific standards can be looked into by CG's or section NCOIC's if people feel that a higher standard needs to be met.

Some MOS's are always going to be more physical than others and that is why we have leaders within units to take the standards to the next level in order to meet the demands and standards that unit has to be at to complete the mission.

Events should be pull-ups or push-ups (I prefer pull-up because it promotes a stronger back which is needed more then developing a strong chest when it comes to things you do in the Army like ruck marches and just carrying heavy things in general) 1.5 or 2 mile run, and sit-ups.

I hope that a strength standard will be implemented one day that would make soldiers have to be able to squat and lift a certain amount of weight.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 2:34 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:34:20 -0500

No, each MOS has unique physical needs. There are undisputed and unchangeable physiological differences between the sexes. Women and men will never be physically the same. As for the age thing, well it's obvious that most saying age shouldn't matter haven't crossed the 40 yr mark yet. After age 40 most men lose 10% testosterone production which affects muscle growth, there is also the slowing of metabolism which makes it harder to keep weight off. This is accompanied many times arthritis and other age related joint issues. After 20 years of pounding the ground in uniform things breakdown.

I wish I were in my 20s again everyday.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 7 at 2014 2:49 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 14:49:26 -0500

Well, if you get rid of the age brackets, you wouldn't have anyone in the military over E-6 or O-3... Not all MOS's are cushy, some tear you up physically.

Response by SGT Joseph Redman made Feb 7 at 2014 3:52 PM

SGT Joseph Redman — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 15:52:00 -0500

i know in my units we had to maintain height and weight year round not just yearly or twice a year. if our coc thought that someone looked over weight everyone got weighed and taped. but also some woman cant physically do push ups like a man can, and some men cant run like a woman can so no they shouldnt be the same

Response by CWO3 Brent Kern made Feb 7 at 2014 4:39 PM

CWO3 Brent Kern — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 16:39:02 -0500

Chiming in from the Marine Corps side of the argument; I agree they should be the same. I know that we are similar in the ways that we form units to fight and support the war fighters; and sometimes those support (or rear area) personnel find themselves all alone on the battlefield with no infantry around them. Everyone needs to be able to withstand the rigors of combat and be fit. The enemy does not shoot slower at an old NCO or Warrant Officer just because they are old nor do they give quarter to a female out of courtesy. One standard! Just like most of you I served in a community that had females that were very capable but only required to run a mile and a half while I was required to run 3 miles for my semiannual PFT, although I had to do twice the work for the same perfect score, we competed for the same promotion spots.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Feb 7 at 2014 5:00 PM

1SG Eric Rice — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:00:21 -0500

<p>Physicall Fitness is a personl responsibility. The APFT is designed to evaluate a soldiers fitness and is an individual activity. PRT can assist with maintaining a soldiers physical fitness but if it is not enough it is up to the soldier to get where they need to be by conducting PT on their own time. The frequency of the APFT and the events currently in place are sufficient for now if conducted correctly. The problem with selecting new events is determining how to evaluate them. That is what happend to the APRT.</p><p> </p><p>SFC Rice</p>

Response by MAJ John Drake made Feb 7 at 2014 5:25 PM

MAJ John Drake — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:25:03 -0500

As a Company Commander, when not "in the field", I scheduled one APFT per month. Repetition is the soldier's friend and it allows the command to use it as a make-up for those who may have missed, a diagnostic for new soldiers or a mile marker for everyone else. I thought it worked fabulously. If you are a Squad or Section Leader, with permission from your commander and 1SG, you could do one periodically, say once a quarter, for the benefit of your soldiers too.

Response by LTC Kathleen Maddox made Feb 7 at 2014 5:43 PM

LTC Kathleen Maddox — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:43:25 -0500

I believe that APFT standards are extremely important and crucial to troop readiness. That being said I agree that different MOSs have different criteria. I think there should be a minimum set of age and gender specific standards (like we currently have) with additional elements that address the needs of different MOSs. The best advice I received was never to show up for APFT not prepared to pass. As a nurse officer I can say I never was ill prepared for APFT.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2014 5:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Feb 2014 17:56:21 -0500

I think everyone should take a diag APFT at least every quarter, to know where you stand. I have been in my current unit 14 months and have taken 7-8 APFTs for different reasons(SLC,airborne physical,etc) and planning on taking another one this month to see how my pt program is working for me, and it also shows my soldiers that I am there with them when they take it

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 4:14 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 16:14:19 -0500

Bullets, mortars, and rockets don't discriminate.

I'll let you all figure out where I stand on this issue.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2014 8:13 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Feb 2014 20:13:18 -0500

Us Marines having to take two different fitness tests a year keeps us in check. The physical fitness test during the first half of the year and the combat fitness test during the back half of the year. Plus having to do height/weight verification every promotion picture, resident PME, special duty assignments and checking in and out of units also keeps us in line. You definitely need to be checked more than once a year IMO.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2014 9:36 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Mar 2014 21:36:24 -0400

For females, I think pushups should be increased (not by a lot), and their run needs to be increased also.

There is no reason a 20 minute 2-mile should be acceptable as passing in my own opinion.

Of course, the height/weight issue needs to be addressed but that's another problem in itself.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 2:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Mar 2014 14:30:20 -0400

Deadlift (avg weight of soldier in full kit)

Timed 50, 100 meter sprint

Pull ups.

To explain my example a bit, I chose deadlifts because anybody needs to be able to pick up everybody, you never know when you will need to lift up and drag your battle buddy to an HLZ. Sprints, because that is the only type of movements you'd be making if you come under enemy fire and are seeking cover. And pull ups, to test upper body strength, which is important for really everything. Mounting a .50, pulling yourself over a wall, and many other movements needed in combat. No age differences, except if you're over 40. No gender differences either. And I say 40 because at 40 men start to lose up to 10% of testosterone and physically cannot be held to the standard of a 18 year old. No offense to our older gentlemen and ladies! And finally, make it MOS specific and shape it to the needs of the job.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 4 at 2014 8:36 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 20:36:41 -0400

I thought the Army was going in the correct direction by making a test based upon job field, but then they switched to adding a supplement to the current test and things started falling apart. The issue is this, there is no one standard. The APFT standard changes by age and gender. This makes it wildly unpredictable at predicting a baseline of any given units actual physical capability. A 50 year old female SGM for example has to perform 34 pushups, 66 situps, and a 17:36 two mile to Max the APFT. How is it right and just to consider that performance (a 300) at the same level as a 30 year old male SGT performing 77 pushups, 82 situps, and 13:18 for the same score? The SGT is physically far more capable so how in any way is the current test standard geared toward a capability to expect any given level of performance? The issue is that the APFT should be in 2 parts. One, a common core minimum for all ages, ranks, and genders for either making or failing the standard (a 1/1/1 assessment). Two, their must be a difference in MOS physical qualifications. For example, all infantry must be able to ruck a x pound pack in x amount of time to be infantry eligible, a artillery soldier must be able to curl x pound bar x times, a medic must be able to drag a x pound dummy, x yards. Stop connecting promotions to PT and weapons quals and make technical and tactical competencies the leading variables. Stop trying to integrate old tools into a new test and pretending its innovative... We as Soldiers have the common sense to know that the APFT is a feel good tool to compare one unit to another on a curved scale.

Please don't interpret this as I'm saying the female NCO is unfit to serve, many can out perform their male counterparts and consistently do. I think the APFT is more of a retention tool than an indicator of physical capability.

Response by SGT Jeremy Schlueter made Apr 11 at 2014 12:05 PM

SGT Jeremy Schlueter — Fri, 11 Apr 2014 12:05:00 -0400

Unfortunately I don't believe Soldiers have a hard time making height and weight, and passing their APFT because they're only required one a year. They have a hard time passing because of a personal discipline deficit.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2014 12:49 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Apr 2014 12:49:34 -0400

I like the Marine Corps standard of a 1st class, 2nd class, and 3rd class scoring system. At you age range, the amount it is required to get a first class decreases slightly. So, as you age you can still achieve a first class score. I always have to chuckle at the individuals get a 300+, but cannot finish something like a BN run without falling out.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 3:16 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 07 Jun 2014 15:16:59 -0400

Add pull ups and change the sit ups to crunches. Keep the two mile. 1.5 miles is the best way to measure someones cardiovascular ability but I think the extra 1/2 mile is for heart.

Response by MSG(P) Michael Warrick made Jun 9 at 2014 7:53 AM

MSG(P) Michael Warrick — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 07:53:21 -0400

I do not know if the current APFT is broken. The HT-WT program is and is needing overhauled. Maybe I am old school but I do not think I would change any thing about it.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2014 11:29 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Jun 2014 11:29:38 -0400

I think that each quarter the APFT should be taken, this would greatly increase Soldier readiness. As far as events. I think the Army should switch to a 3 -mile run, keep the sit-ups and push-ups, add pull-ups, and possibly some field events, such as buddy carries, running in equipment, carrying objects to and from places, and maneuvering obstacles. Run the standard APFT (run, sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups) twice a year, and the other two quarters run the filed portion of the APFT. Let me know your thoughts.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jul 18 at 2014 5:46 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:46:09 -0400

I think they should not be warned when they will be taking a PFT and not know the distance or numbers needed to pass. It amazed me how many senior leaders would full apart if they needed to run more than 2 miles? First, we need to remember the real purpose of the PFT and then train our soldiers, for their and our own benfit, to be the best that they can be.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 7:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 19:25:38 -0400

I would change the run to 1.5 miles and add Chin- ups . It definitley should not be MOS specific. It's not like they are asking is to run a marathon!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 7:31 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 19:31:43 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member -You know when I put a flower in my hair, they Baker Act me. Unless I smile and then I win the day. ;)

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2014 10:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Jul 2014 22:38:19 -0400

I don't think soldiers have a hard time passing because they are only "required" to take a record PT test once a year. They have a hard time passing because they don't take the initiative and time to keep themselves in shape. The standard is already there. The responsibility is on the soldier. Physical fitness is part of our military duty. Period. you could conduct record PT tests every month and most of the same Joes will fail it...consistently. In the Guard, we don't have remedial Pt like we did in the Army. However, that shouldn't exempt soldiers from being accountable. I think squad leaders should take the initiative and not only counsel PT failures, but actively encourage soldiers to do PT on their own by having their soldiers log their efforts at home. when I was doing my OCS thing, I'd have to drive to campus three days a week, thirty miles away and conduct morning PT. I wasn't even taking classes. As an alternate plan, I did Pt on my own, at home, and submitted my activities to my Commander every Friday. It worked fine and kept me accountable. The APFT fail rate for my current platoon is over 80%! Nobody is intimidated by negative counseling...because we don't do them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2014 11:31 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Jul 2014 23:31:41 -0400

Let us go back to the beginning. few people have heard of COL Herman Kelior who is known as the Father of Army Physical Fitness. Their was not an established PT test during the time of COL Kelior's tenure as the Director of Physical Education at West Point. What was important to COL Kelior was over all fitness of the soldier to conduct combat operations.
COL Kelior who was also the Football Coach at West Point, Once said after the Cadets were beaten soundly by Notre Dame; "In combat you must expect the unexpected, if you learned that lesson today then I don't care what the score is."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Koehler

Herman Koehler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Herman John Koehler (December 14, 1859 – July 1, 1927)[1][2] was an American football coach, athletics administrator, and United States Army officer. He served as the head football coach at the United States Military Academy from 1897 to 1900, compiling a record of 19–11–3.

Response by SPC Daniel Edwards made Jan 20 at 2015 7:24 AM

SPC Daniel Edwards — Tue, 20 Jan 2015 07:24:02 -0500

Male and female scores should be closer together. We are supposed to do 20 push ups every day for warm up (or at least I always do). Yet females are required to do that many in 2 minutes. In my opinion, that is to easy.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 27 at 2015 12:50 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Jan 2015 12:50:26 -0500

Personally we take an apft once a month in my troop. But only quarterly are they a recorded apft.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 5:57 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 05:57:50 -0500

Pushups, Situps, Pullups, 2 mile run! More events will give you more understanding of the true fitness of an individual.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Feb 3 at 2015 9:09 AM

SFC Vernon McNabb — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 09:09:45 -0500

Most units I have been in, have administered the APFT quarterly. Beginning in October with a record, January is a diagnostic, April is a record and August is another diagnostic. In my current unit, we take two records per year (October and April). I would not change what we do for the APFT, other than sit-ups. These are the worst exercises. Maybe crunches or V-ups to create less strain on the neck and spine. I know there are some super studs out there who will say "work on your core", but the average Joe/Jane will still crank on their neck to get as many sit ups in as possible.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 7:15 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 19:15:08 -0500

One standard for all and it's pass or fail. I have little use for the APFT score as an evaluation tool when comparing you to others if all of you are graded on different scales. I hold physical fitness in a high regard and I push subordinates to achieve a high level of fitness for the unit and their sake, but to compare people with the score is flawed if the scale is different. I am ok with adding an additional physical test per MOS or duty as well. We use the APFT score to differentiate and rank people and unless they are the same age and gender then we should not be doing that

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2015 4:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Apr 2015 16:16:28 -0400

- Same standard for males and females. Equal treatment, right?
- Replace situps with another core exercise.
- Add pull ups.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2015 10:28 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 10:28:01 -0500

If I was in charge the sit up would go away ASAP. You don't need a doctorate to know that this exercise is ridiculous.

Response by TSgt John LaBelle made Mar 8 at 2016 6:44 AM

TSgt John LaBelle — Tue, 08 Mar 2016 06:44:45 -0500

I retired 3 years ago. 12 years Army, 12 years Air Force. Been through the changes in both for pt. I would eliminate the test as it is. Build an obstacle course that would challenge upper, lower, core and speed and agility. A set number of obstacles to complete. This would be a timed event, no score, pass or fail.