What changes have other services seen since they did away with Incentive Physical Training (or equivalent term) in boot camp?

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:11:51 -0400

The way the Corps operates is under scrutiny again. The Marines are the only branch left to use Incentive Training or I.T. to correct minor deficiencies in conduct & performance. I'm unaware of when the other services took away calisthenics as a punishment in entry-level training, but can someone attest to the differences in recruits once that option was taken away from the training cadre?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 5:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:42:02 -0400

Huge difference, we are too soft. The millenials are taking over and parenting skills went down oh and technology is out growing us.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 5:44 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:44:24 -0400

Without direct, impactful and immediate ways to get your point through to Privates, you are without power as an NCO. I worked as a Phase II Coordinator for the ARMY 68K course and I would receive privates who show up with this mindset of "what are you gonna do about it? Counsel me??" In an era where it takes a counseling packet as thick as a phone book to get any type of UCMJ pushed through, counseling statements are useless and take up a lot of an NCO's time. We used to be an authority figure and now we are a measure of document control for a broken process.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 5:45 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:45:01 -0400

I don't know if I should answer that question, but you guys are good in my eyes , if you want to start putting civilians in uniform in your ranks then you do what the other service did

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 5:55 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:55:02 -0400

The Coast Guard still uses it in Boot Camp as of earlier this month...

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 6:36 PM

CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 18:36:55 -0400

That moment an NCO is really upset, and tells a soldier to push and that soldier's knee jerk reaction is to say. "You get down with me, you have to"

I was never in the Army when "hazing" and "smoking" were super common but I know plenty of seniors who talk about how it's detracted from the whole scope of the military when you can just soldier up, solve the problem without paper and learn your lesson. I imagine, putting things on paper was supposed to be a last straw effort.

I attended BCT in Benning pre female integration not that it's relevant to the story outside things could get real stupid for minor infractions and it served it's purpose.

Response by MSG Andrew White made Aug 25 at 2016 7:01 PM

MSG Andrew White — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 19:01:39 -0400

I'm a fat body now!! but when I was in-it was a different story!! I look at the soldiers, airmen, navy, and marines today-their body mass is questionable!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 7:29 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 19:29:06 -0400

I got chastised for raising my voice at my Soldiers at Annual Training for leaving one of our vehicles unsecured and it was taken by another Soldier from another unit. It was done purely out of accident, but the last words of the Commander were to lock the vehicles. It didn't happen and it was taken. After searching the base camp at 2200 hours to no avail, I gathered everyone up and voiced my displeasure and I used come colorful words and phrasing.

Response by SGT Connor Haynes made Aug 25 at 2016 7:36 PM

SGT Connor Haynes — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 19:36:50 -0400

Sir, I know when I went through recruit training I was on the quarter deck more than I would have liked but it helped me out a lot. I knew if I messed up I would be there again. I found discipline through pain. These new military members don't have any. I know when I was getting ready to EAS the new kids did not have any fear to rank structure at all. Now I'm in the Natioanl Guard and see these new kids come out of basic and they say that they don't get smoked or IT or anything like that as much as they thought they would. And they do know that they can get away with just about anything and just get slapped with a counseling.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 25 at 2016 8:02 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 20:02:10 -0400

we had it when i went to basic in 2013, don't know if its still around or not. flutter kicks for days.

Response by SFC Kenneth Hunnell made Aug 25 at 2016 9:17 PM

SFC Kenneth Hunnell — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:17:50 -0400

I treat all soldier's with respect. What I don't do is write counselings for everything that happens. Do not yell or any of that nonsense.
What I do is, set the example.
I talk to the individual in question, I stand up for them and they know it.
I use the K.I.S.S. system, keep it simple simple.
I like to use logic even a young kid would understand.
Too illustrate, I could send a mass text out, within 2 hours I would get a response back from 90% of the soldier's.
I do not use counseling forms, a waste of time. On the spot corrections with constructive work gets the point across

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Aug 25 at 2016 9:35 PM

CPT Tom Monahan — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 21:35:52 -0400

Is there a different mind set
In the Corps? The other branches have adopted a method to train new members. After all the Army hasn't had draftees since the early 70s. The Corps is still making Marines and getting volunteers to conform to a culture. I have no problem with that. The question becomes what model is better? For the NCOs, if you have a "maggot" problem you used to have them "beat the face", but you still needed the paperwork to support NJP or admin action. Remember, a soldier can refuse NJP. If that happens a commander needs enough to be successful at Courts Martial.

Response by PO1 Brian Austin made Aug 25 at 2016 11:50 PM

PO1 Brian Austin — Thu, 25 Aug 2016 23:50:06 -0400

We had "Shore Tours" for the smallest transgression at RTC San Diego. A 2 hr workout 1900-2100 hrs with the SEAL's and/or EOD guys. I remember literally seeing a sweat outline of my body on the grinder when i finished. If you really screwed up, your Shore Tour was in the afternoon sun with a lead filled M-14. That M-14 would not touch ground, woe to those who let it.

I really have no idea what they do now. Though i imagine it's changed quite a bit. And probably no lead filled M-14.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2016 7:14 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 07:14:42 -0400

Smoke Sessions still happen plenty.... There are always a way to get around the new PC environment we have today in the BCT land. Everything that is in FM 21-20 and the PRT schedule is fair game to boost that privates APFT score. Where there is a will there is a way. But i have to admit when i was at the Island i was smoked 24/7 muscle failure every day at Parris Island (2001).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2016 9:56 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 09:56:19 -0400

If I would I would collect the data on average APFT scores. Prior to the "soft hearted" movement Soldiers had to pass the minimum standard before graduating basic (60 in each event... Now I hear they only achieve 50 for a go). On average about 50-60% of the Soldiers who I pick up from basic training fail their first APFT at the unit.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Aug 26 at 2016 10:28 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 10:28:51 -0400

I'm going to be honest, you scared me when you said IT was removed from boot camp. I'm glad the Marines still use it because it is quick, effective and makes you evaluate every single action you make to avoid getting punished. I loved my IT sessions in boot camp. I think I spent 1/2 my time on the quarterdeck in some capacity. Sure I hated it while I was there, but when you look back, you can see all the progress you made was due to the IT sessions. It helped me run a little faster, lose a lot of weight (went from a diet tray to a double ration because I was losing too much), I yelled a little louder, my uniform looked a little better.

Literally every little thing they did made me a better Marine. If it wasn't for those IT sessions, chances are I might not have made it through boot camp. We all come to boot camp like a blob of clay. The drill instructors use IT sessions to sculpt us into the Marine Corps image. Very few come into boot camp looking like Marines, but we all leave hard and chiseled out of stone.

That is the benefit of IT sessions.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 26 at 2016 12:19 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 12:19:32 -0400

We need to go back to the old way of initial training to instill discipline the current soldiers coming back from AIT lack.

Response by SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA made Aug 26 at 2016 2:25 PM

SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 14:25:33 -0400

When did this happen? I'm pretty sure that Blue Cord on Honor Hill still costs gallons of sweat in smoke sessions on Sand Hill. Certainly, that was my experience.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Aug 26 at 2016 6:50 PM

1LT William Clardy — Fri, 26 Aug 2016 18:50:03 -0400

It's all in how you define things, Capt Private RallyPoint Member.
What's done is already done. Instead of focusing on punishment, you should frame the toolset in motivational and educational terms. Proper and timely use of calisthenics can be highly motivational as well as invigorating. When accompanied by appropriate verbal cuing, your troops will be highly motivated to not repeat past mistakes, which is a truly educational benefit as well.