What can we learn from the fighting in Ukraine?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 09:56:10 -0500

When going out with a friend that's a doctor and I was asked why I was following the events in Ukraine. I explained that it's similar to how a doctor would follow a case study. It painted a much better picture as to why I'm following the conflicts.

As a maneuver officer I know enough to question the decision to send a column of armor into an urban environment without infantry support.

Response by PO2 Marco Monsalve made Mar 10 at 2022 10:03 AM

PO2 Marco Monsalve — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:03:01 -0500

A lot of lessons to be learned on this one. Little infantry support and a lack of air superiority. The UR is lucky that the UA did not have the CAS in this scenario of a permissive air environment.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Mar 10 at 2022 10:08 AM

SPC Kevin Ford — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:08:42 -0500

What could possibly go wrong? Lol. From the images it does look like there were some BMPs in there but if there was infantry in them it doesn't look like they dismounted.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 10 at 2022 10:19 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:19:02 -0500

For starters....LOGISTICS. Hard to fight when you don't have food, fuel and ammo

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Mar 10 at 2022 10:19 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:19:27 -0500

My guess is that that the Russians are attempting to hold down casualties. There are already protests going on in Russia and Afghanistan is still fresh in some memories. When the body bags start getting filled up, the protests will grow. Not to mention the cost in treasury.

Response by LTC Keith L Jackson made Mar 10 at 2022 10:28 AM

LTC Keith L Jackson — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:28:37 -0500

This is why we remain the more superior fighting force in this world. Our training, strategies and leadership continue to lead the way as a combat multiplier when we engage other forces.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Mar 10 at 2022 1:06 PM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:06:31 -0500

Well, there is plenty of things to learn but a lot of it is stuff we already know. Don't bunch a convoy, don't send all of your troops on a single MSR, Don't invade a country for expansion while claiming you are doing it because they are Nazi's. Don't plan an aerial and paratroop assault in broad daylight where it can be easily repelled. So many lessons that really didn't need to be taught.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Mar 10 at 2022 1:50 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:50:08 -0500

What can we learn from the fighting in Ukraine?
STOP FIGHTING IN UKRAINE!!!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Mar 10 at 2022 1:51 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 13:51:36 -0500

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Mar 10 at 2022 3:16 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:16:36 -0500

Just as a note, the vehicles on the right look like BTR IFV and the one in the back is a Multiple Launch Rocket vehicle. Not a clear picture, but the top left look to be BMP's with another MLR vehicle. It looks to me like a Mech heavy unit. My guess would be assembly area. I don't think the Russians are stupid.
I had to learn how to identify Soviet vehicles through the sight of a M47 Dragon.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Mar 10 at 2022 3:32 PM

CPT Lawrence Cable — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:32:12 -0500

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

Institute for the Study of War

This page collects ISW and CTP's updates on the conflict in Ukraine. In late February 2022, ISW began publishing daily synthetic products covering key events related to renewed Russian aggression against Ukraine.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 10 at 2022 3:53 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 15:53:03 -0500

We will learn a lot about how the Russians fight a war. Our intel organizations should and can gather many types of intel on the Russian forces. They will show how they maneuver and communicate which we can collect and analyze. The Russian use of air power will give indications of what to expect in that area; also, their use or non-use of space warfare. Finally, their attacks in cyberspace will show what tools they have or don' t have. From the intel information they are exposing to the entire world, not to mention our intel community, we can determine a more accurate order of battle for their ground, air, naval, and space forces.

On the other side, we can learn about how to fight a numerically superior enemy with a technologically inferior force. The Ukrainians have a lot of intangible strength that makes their "weaker" forces equal to the Russian forces. They are fighting for their homeland. They have interior lines of communication. Unfortunately, they allowed their air force and air defense forces to decay over the last few decades when compared to what the Russians left behind when Ukraine became an independent country.

We are seeing how mutually assured destruction in the nuclear weapons arena works out. When one of the players is willing to bet the other player(s) will not employ nuclear weapons, then he has free reign to use conventional forces to pursue his political-military objectives. He simply increases the readiness of his nuclear forces and the US and our allies cringe at the threat. We can call his bluff and deploy US Forces into Ukraine, take on his conventional forces with the Ukrainian Forces, and possibly drive the Russian forces from the air space and ground of Ukraine. If he isn't bluffing, then it's nuclear war. Hell of a bet. One I don't expect Mr Biden to make.

Response by LTC Ray Buenteo made Mar 10 at 2022 4:15 PM

LTC Ray Buenteo — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:15:19 -0500

Russian logistics rely on indigenous resources. Kinda resupy as you find the source

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 10 at 2022 4:31 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 16:31:11 -0500

Out of water, out of food, out of gas-In deep sh—t. The US includes all combat multipliers in planning and the development of contingencies. Our leadership knows we cannot get out in front of logistics and supplies. Russia went from a linear mass attack force to an attempt to look similar to western conventional forces and his strategists don’t know how to plan.

I could go on but,

Response by MSG Greg Kelly made Mar 10 at 2022 5:17 PM

MSG Greg Kelly — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 17:17:35 -0500

My wife asked about that very thing. I had a hell of Time explaining to her that in most modernized countries today perhaps 2/3rds of the people live in or near the cities. That is why people are leaving and have no place to go and cannot take care of themselves in Ukraine. If that happened in the US Millions would be displaced and would expect to government to help them and would wait for help. And they would starve, turn to violence to try and take from others. That is where those with the guns will keep their stuff and those without will figure it or leave. If you have not read the book by John Ringo called the Last Centurian you should, he talks about the Ants and Grasshoppers. Ants work as part of a hive and thrive. Grasshoppers just mass on the land eat until there is nothing left and move on. Many Americans in cities today I would call Grasshoppers. They only care about themselves.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Mar 10 at 2022 6:56 PM

Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 18:56:46 -0500

Here's the deal for Russia:
- Ukraine joins the EU
- Ukraine joins NATO
- Crimea returned to the Ukraine
- All other territory invaded by Russin returned to the Ukraine
- Non-Aggression Pact with Russia
- Russia offered a naval base in Crimea (sort of like the US base of Guantanamo in Cuba)

If rejected by Russia:
- Ukraine joins the EU
- Ukraine joins NATO
- Crimea will be returned to the Ukraine
- All other territory invaded by Russin will be returned to the Ukraine

Take it or leave it, Putin.

Response by SSG Dave Johnston made Mar 10 at 2022 8:43 PM

SSG Dave Johnston — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:43:59 -0500

Politicians lied and created the fiasco we see befalling us today...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMbSrvkpYSE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxMVcrvtqqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0MvRbPc4e8
What axe does this guy have to grind

watch

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 11 at 2022 2:06 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 02:06:37 -0500

I agree. The urban areas are death traps for Russian vehicles. About the column formation that is the worst formation to use when enemy contact is a possibility. I need to know the terrain to make a better assessment.

I don’t know why they used the column formation? Were they overconfident? Was the terrain impassable? Are the Russians generals incompetent? Perhaps alternate routes are impassible due to heavy mud. When tanks make contact they need to maneuver to covered and concealed positions, but that is virtually impossible if they maneuver in a column formation in cities and towns.

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Mar 11 at 2022 10:22 AM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:22:00 -0500

We can learn that Putin a KBG colonel is a communist. This is worse than the cold war because putin is not sane. What is the US going to do if putin uses chemical weapons in Ukraine? The communist chinese are waiting to see what the free world does about Ukraine because they want to take Taiwan the same way. This is 1939 all over again. Hitler took Poland by force France and England declared war on Germany. Japan saw a chance to unite with Hitler and They Bombed Pear Harbor. The US. declaired war on Japan, A few days later Germany and Italy declared war on the US. Its worse this time because of nuclear weapons. One hope is that Putin will be ousted by his own people. Semper Fi.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 11 at 2022 11:53 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:53:46 -0500

I like to wonder, were it not for the nuclear option (and still wonder yet how many of those Russian nukes would work enough to get on target if their current conventional performance is any indication) how exposed the entirety of the Russian military defenses are while engaged in this quagmire.

If NATO was as militarily aggressive as Putin this would be over lickity split. At the very least, make them run back to the boarder and keep them there.

Response by MSgt Jeff Bailey made Mar 11 at 2022 2:10 PM

MSgt Jeff Bailey — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 14:10:55 -0500

Tell him its the military equivalent of a Doctor looking at a Petrie dish to study the results of a test or experiment.

Response by SFC Bruce Chunn made Mar 11 at 2022 3:56 PM

SFC Bruce Chunn — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 15:56:44 -0500

I have to agree with you, Bosnia, Desert Storm, Desert shield. I was recon

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 12 at 2022 6:29 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sat, 12 Mar 2022 18:29:43 -0500

Tankers must understand to react to contact to various threats on the battlefield. If we can find the target we will shoot at it. If not we will immediately look for cover and concealment then assess the situation. Those Russian tanks can't conduct react to contact drills because all they could do is look for the enemy and retreat.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Mar 12 at 2022 7:11 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:11:42 -0500

So here is what I read via various publications. Russian troops were issued MRE's with a 2002 expiration date, so they are about 20 years old. Not sure if they last that long but if they do, it's still gross. Russian troops were told they were only going on a military exercise and when they initially crossed the border into Ukraine and asked what was going on, they were told to shutup. The upper eschelon of the Officer Corps I am told lives pretty comfortably and a lot of them are on the take and embezzling funds when they can that were intended for military upgrades and training. Russian NCO Corps is pretty cruel and doesn't know how to make decisions or take initiative and frequently have to ask Officers what to do next or get their permission. On top of all this the fact is their charge cards are no longer working, they are paid in greatly reduced or near worthless roubles. Their folks back home have no clue what is going on and when they phone home to tell them their Parents think they are betraying the country with their talk. One Soldier called home and his Parents told him they were already making arrangements for his funeral as they had no expectation he would return alive. The Russian secure commo depends on functional 3G or 4G cell phone towers and their own Air Force took most of them down and so there went the secure commo. A lot of Russian communications can be intercepted now by the Ukranians.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 13 at 2022 5:45 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 13 Mar 2022 17:45:55 -0400

I will try to illuminate facts and assumption about the war in Ukraine.

- MANEUVER is a Principle of War (PW). Essentially it means movement to put your unit in a favorable position.

- FACT: The Russians used column formations for mobility. However, the column formation is absolutely the worst formation on the attack because the lead tank is the only one that can fire to the front. I am making an assumption that the generals and soldiers are poorly trained and or going off road can be very muddy.

As a tanker we had contact drills. What if an enemy tank shoots at us. What if artillery drops? What if chemical weapons are used? Our contact drills requires scanning for the enemy and looking for cover and concealment. FACT: There are very few ways to find cover and concealment in a city. The Russian tanks it appears try to retreat from the kill box.

FACT: Ukraine had 17,000 Javelin missiles, RPGs, and 2,000 Stinger missiles. They have drones but I can’t come up with the number, and their armor forces and planes are a fraction of Russia’s. ASSUMPTION: I think the Russians are concerned with losing planes.

FACT: It appears most of the Russian vehicles were killed as they neared cities by RPGs and Javelins. ASSUMPTION: Ukraine does not have the ability to conduct the deep fight and the terrain maybe unsuitable for long range maneuver so the will focus on the close fight.

MASS is another PW. It means coordinating massing of firepower at the right time and place, like a kill zone. It appears Ukraine uses mass to destroy Russian vehicles as they get closer to the cities.

I won't mention logistics because I have no clue why it failed.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 20 at 2022 2:07 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 20 Mar 2022 14:07:20 -0400

The generals and soldiers suck.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 21 at 2022 1:45 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Mon, 21 Mar 2022 13:45:27 -0400

Your picture shows me how tactically inept they are. They are in such a tight column formation thus it is extremely difficult to do anything when attacked.

Carl Von Clausewitz opined war has 3 pronounced components:
- A good national leader.
- Military acumen.
- Passionate people.

You can see those components in the Revolutionary War. Ukraine don't quit. Fight like tigers.

If you want new analysis your wish is my command.

Response by MAJ Louis Giamo made Mar 25 at 2022 6:54 PM

MAJ Louis Giamo — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 18:54:31 -0400

1. Logistics: No beans, no bullets, no fuel, no go
2. Equipment Maintenance: Some reports I've seen say that up to 20% of the vehicles that were to take part in the initial invasion failed before they crossed the border.
3. Morale: low troop morale for the Russians and highly motivated morale for the Ukrainians changes how you approach the battle.
4. Command and Control: the Russians still have a C&C based on the WWII Soviet model. Very top heavy and no one makes a decision independent of the guy in charge. Kill the leader and the whole unit stops.
5. Commo and OPSEC: they don't seem to be using secure commo and they are talking in the clear.
Put these together with a couple of other things and you have a plan for failure.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2022 1:53 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Mar 2022 13:53:22 -0400

Never underestimate the necessity of good logistics and combat support elements. After all the jokes are said and done any seasoned Infantryman or Tanker will tell you they need food, water, ammo, fuel, commo, and maintainers to keep them moving.

The evaluation of senior officers in the field. Granted most nations don't have what you would call an American military structure, even among our Western allies. For example, most nations Warrant Officers are part of the Enlisted structure, not the case for us. Take WO's out of the mix and you see a lot less enlisted advancement but the same level of officer advancement. So that creates a heavy top requiring more officers to be directly involved than having NCO's take the reigns. So we're seeing higher officer casualty rates on the Russian side, to include general officers. That said, there is something to be said of morale when boots on ground know senior leaders are taking some risk too.

The necessity of hiding your officers, SNCO's, and commo. Ukrainian forces have been targeting anyone being saluted or shown any kind of respect via authority, anyone who appears older i.e. grey/white hair, and anyone standing or operating around radio equipment. Smart tactic, kill the leaders and the experienced Soldiers, and take out their commo.

The importance of internet and commo discipline. Ukrainian forces were tracking Russian comm traffic that was unsecured or women were even luring Russian males via Tinder and other apps only to have them captured or killed.

The importance of armor and air support. We also need to train like we don't have it. We're watching an A-10 pilots wet dream with some of these convoys, and I believe these convoys only exist because the Russians know the Ukrainians don't have the air power to take them out. If Russia were fighting a peer adversary like US or NATO they might change their tactics... So we're seeing Russia not train like it fights. So if we find ourselves forward with no air, naval, or armor support we should train for that. TOC jumping, anti-armor and air weapons and tactics familiarization. We spent 20 years against a difficult opponent but one that used guerilla tactics with a terror and religious mindset. Fighting against a peer military will not be the same fight and can't be treated as such.

Never underestimate the Civilian populations desire to defend what's theirs, especially if they are united and believe in a national identity. Current political division and poor mindset aside, I believe Americans would step up and fight just like the Ukrainians are now. This brings back the importance of PSYOPS, propaganda, and legitimately winning the hearts and minds. Russia has no concept of hearts and minds, and on our side of the aisle we betray local nationals because of politics and shit tier leaders. That's going to come back and bite us in future conflicts so we need to plan for it.

Lastly, a final thought on Russia. Were it not for their nuclear arsenal I do not believe anyone can equate them to the Cold War era boogeyman they used to be. Were it literally not for nukes we, especially with allied support, would destroy them if we had the mindset to do it.

Response by CH (CPT) Antonio Arnold made Mar 30 at 2022 7:43 PM

CH (CPT) Antonio Arnold — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:43:04 -0400

I would have to say someone forgot some basic fundamentals. Never travel without Infantry support not to mention columns march appears to be too close perfect for an ambush. Have we not learned our history from WW2, Korea, Desert Storm and etc. As far as logistics, didn't General George S. Patton out pace his logistics and his armor ran out of fuel? You think the Russians would learned from us as we learned from them. Talk about blunders back in the days a Dragon and TOW Gunner would had a fun day :)

Response by CH (CPT) Antonio Arnold made Mar 30 at 2022 7:48 PM

CH (CPT) Antonio Arnold — Wed, 30 Mar 2022 19:48:22 -0400

Definitely a killed zone. I wounder what the tank commander was thinking when he made the decision to march this way in an urban environment without our Infantry. Russia lost allot of tanks in Berlin. I wonder why? Today driving through Ukraine. Some leaders never learn the lesson of failures. So much for Russian or Soviet Doctrine. LOL

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Mar 31 at 2022 3:51 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Thu, 31 Mar 2022 03:51:22 -0400

First. LOSGISTICS. The USSR didn't have this issue when they fought the Mujahedeen when they were in Afghanistan. Why is this happening to them now is mind-boggling. Second. The Russians DID NOT take into account the RESOLVE of the PEOPLE OF UKRAINE. To date, they are paying the price for their LACK OF VISION.

Response by SFC John Fourquet made Apr 23 at 2022 11:53 PM

SFC John Fourquet — Sat, 23 Apr 2022 23:53:45 -0400

The war in Ukraine has shown the value of UAVs and other unmanned systems on the battlefield. The lessons to be learned by the US Army is how to use them as stand alone systems or as an integrated part of the brigade combat and defend against them at the same time.

Response by SrA Michael Risney made May 14 at 2022 11:17 PM

SrA Michael Risney — Sat, 14 May 2022 23:17:44 -0400

Keep the cell phones off...

Response by MAJ John Davis made May 22 at 2022 1:23 PM

MAJ John Davis — Sun, 22 May 2022 13:23:36 -0400

When the military is called upon, they must be seen as a coherent whole acting on behalf of a good effort. Applying units piecemeal, without logistics or coordination, leads to failure. Further, having unclear goals, or vague political ends, leads to a fore-doomed effort. Fighting people on their homeland, with brutality, will lead to failure.

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jun 10 at 2022 6:46 PM

MSG Thomas Currie — Fri, 10 Jun 2022 18:46:23 -0400

Overall there are a lot of micro-lessons to be learned from the conflict in Ukraine, but it seems that almost all of them can be summed up in the single statement "Don't be stupid!"

Most of the Russian failures are directly related to the way the Russian army is organized and how it operates... And much of that is diametrically opposite from how the US or most western forces are organized and operate.

Russian weaknesses include:
A lack of qualified small unit leaders... which leads to
A lack of flexibility and initiative at the small unit level... which is closely tied to
A reliance on detailed high level plans and orders... which is associated with
The attitude that front line units, personnel, and equipment are all expendable resources

Many of the logistics problems of the Russian forces in Ukraine are undoubtedly related to the corruption that is ubiquitous throughout all levels of the Russian government. Those problems were exacerbated by bad planning assumptions that expected to take Kiev and replace the government in the first week, with the entire campaign to last less than three weeks.

Unfortunately none of this changes the validity of the Russian assumption that quantity has a quality all its own and that victory will eventually come to the side that can just keep throwing more and more forces against the enemy until the enemy is overwhelmed.