What are your thoughts on the third verse of the national anthem?

SSG Trust Palmer — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:08:32 -0400

I was asked not to ask this question, but I see no harm in asking.

So, I am ashamed to say that at the age of 21 ;) I had no idea that there were additional verses to the National Anthem. Can you please give me some feedback on your thoughts about the third verse of the National Anthem. If you don't know what it is, I'll paste it below. This question has NOTHING to do with CK. I'm hoping that we can have an intelligent conversation about this. ( Admin: If I tagged this incorrectly please fix it).

No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov’d home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with vict’ry and peace may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto - “In God is our trust,”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 30 at 2016 7:18 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:18:09 -0400

I'm in the same boat too, the verse does take some getting use to.

Response by CSM Chuck Stafford made Aug 30 at 2016 7:23 AM

CSM Chuck Stafford — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:23:08 -0400

I assume you specifically mean the "No refuge could save the hireling and slave" phrase. My understanding is that the British offered slaves their freedom to fight against the rebellious upstart nation. Francis Scott Key was a slaveowner himself, so I don't surmise he wished doom on them. As far as anthem goes, it's mine and I'll embrace the goodness of it and the freedoms it represents to shore up all that needs to be strengthened (and that a lot)

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 7:32 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 07:32:16 -0400

The world was different when this was written. What was the intent of the author? I do not think anyone can say.

Would it stand if written today? I am sure not.

Should we change it now? I think to do so would tend to hide history. Hiding history does not change it, it only prevents us from learning its lessons.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 30 at 2016 8:02 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:02:08 -0400

I remember fifth grade or so that there were more verses. Could not have told you a single word of them by the sixth grade. I read an article about it last night. Key was a slave owner, anti-abolitionist, had published something about Africans being an inferior race, and maybe a bit gleeful about the slaves the British were giving their freedom to if the fought against the United States getting killed. He thought they were traitors. How you could think something you considered inferior and property and not real men traitors I don't know. I remember decades ago some congressman or senator had a move to change the anthem to America the Beautiful. I think it was because the Star Spangled Banner is kind of a clunky song or maybe because it's about a battle, not the third verse.. It's only been the anthem since 1931? That surprised me too. I don't know. It's odd mentioning the slave right before the land of the free. If it were right now and we were picking a national anthem I would not want our current one. But, I really like the verse we all sing. If it was changed to America the Beautiful I would not be mad but I also don't think I would be for it. I'd be like, well ok. Maybe Lee Greenwoods Proud to be an American . That's what they played every day at reveille and retreat when I was in the 3ID. Everyone went to Attention when it was played at events. If it was changed back then it probably would have been welcomed. Lot easier and fun to sing. It's a tough one. I can imagine the howls and the horrible things that would be said if a serious effort were made to change. Mostly by people who don't know all the words of the first verse. But, maybe it does take big things to change and make America a better place. It would be a powerful message that we want to admit our past mistakes and really make America the Home of the Free with equality for all.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 30 at 2016 8:31 AM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:31:43 -0400

It means that all are considered and covered.

Response by MSgt Richard Rountree made Aug 30 at 2016 8:56 AM

MSgt Richard Rountree — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:56:25 -0400

As the saying goes, you learn something new every day. Don't be ashamed that you learned more about the National Anthem at age 21...it only took me 61 years to gain this knowledge...thanks to you. ;-) As a naturally curious person, I examined several articles on the web to learn more. The Wikipedia entry was particularly useful and enlightening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Star-Spangled_Banner

As for my thoughts, it is what it is. The poem was written long ago, and, as someone else already mentioned, the world and this country was a different place then. Thank you very much for the post.

The Star-Spangled Banner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Star-Spangled Banner" is the national anthem of the United States of America. The lyrics come from "Defence of Fort M'Henry",[2] a poem written on September 14, 1814 by the 35-year-old lawyer and amateur poet Francis Scott Key after witnessing the bombardment of Fort McHenry by British ships of the Royal Navy in Baltimore Harbor during the Battle of Fort McHenry in the War of 1812. Key was inspired by the large American flag, the...

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 10:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:34:24 -0400

My sense is that if he had made the third verse the first verse, it would never have become our national anthem. Clearly the first verse is the catchy one. Though it is a shame that the music is such that even world class singers struggle to sing it well, and the rest of us stand no chance. ;)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 12:22 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:22:00 -0400

SSG Trust Palmer
I knew there were more verses; I wasn’t aware what they were. Looks like your quoting half of the 3rd verse and the 4th. Quoting a half of a verse, it can be taken out of context.

You also need to look into the meaning of the words at the time they were written. I was reading Mark Twain with my granddaughter the other evening, and it was very difficult. Sometimes it took us some discussion before we could decipher what was actually being said. What I found: The Star Spangled Banner Lyrics, By Francis Scott Key 1814:
http://www.usa-flag-site.org/song-lyrics/star-spangled-banner/

Star Spangled Banner Lyrics - USA Flag Site

The Star Spangled Banner Lyrics By Francis Scott Key 1814 Download a printable PDF – The Star Spangled Banner lyrics Oh, say can you see by the dawn’s early light What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming? Whose broad stripes and bright stars thru the perilous fight, O’er the ramparts we watched …

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 30 at 2016 12:51 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:51:34 -0400

I suppose over my many years on this planet in the upright position, I have heard the National Anthem and said the Pledge of Allegiance a million times or more. Consider me a total believer and thoroughly indoctrinated in both. BTW, as noted, it was created as a result of the attack on Ft. McHenry (The Battle of Fort McHenry was fought September 13/14, 1814, during the War of 1812.) and had absolutely nothing to do with anything except defending our country from British Imperialism a second time.

Response by LTC Tim Ellis made Aug 30 at 2016 1:08 PM

LTC Tim Ellis — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:08:10 -0400

Kudos for asking the question, as long as people are open minded and bring forth a researched, reasonable discussion we all learn. Thanks for your posting.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 30 at 2016 1:12 PM

SN Greg Wright — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:12:59 -0400

Staff, COL Lee Flemming posted a thread a few days ago about one of the Confederate generals. His point was (my summation, I'm tagging him so he can correct me if I got it wrong) was that Confederate soldiers don't bother him -- they were doing as their government told them too. It was certainly a different time than now, but erasing them from history does no one any good.

I look at these 'new' (to me, too, thanks!) verses in the same light: written so long ago by someone who's intent cannot now be gleaned. Sure, we could erase it now, but why? No one sings that part. And it's out there. It's never going to go away. Best to just look at it and say, 'damn, I'm glad things aren't like that anymore.' Hiding history doesn't accomplish anything.

Having said all that, I agree with PVT James Strait, that a new anthem wouldn't be remiss, though, I've thought that for a long time, and has little to do with these 'new' verses.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 2:41 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 14:41:03 -0400

I had not heard that verse before. Reading it now, I find it offensive both in its references to slavery, and of course the suggestion that we "as in all Americans" place our trust in a deity.

Offensive passages or not, I've long thought America the Beautiful would make a far better national anthem simply because it is a better song, one that illustrates the country as a whole rather than just the country at war, and of course because the Star Spangled Banner just has far too large a spread from low to high notes that most people can't sing it correctly without either loosing tone in the low notes or cracking their voice in the high notes.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 4:27 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:27:24 -0400

I am glad that you asked this question it's a good one I like the response that you been getting

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2016 8:02 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:02:45 -0400

I was just at Fort McHenry in Baltimore last week. For those who don't know, Francis Scott Key was being held prisoner (sort of) on a British vessel as the fleet bombarded the fort in an effort to invade Baltimore on the heels of burning Washington DC down. It was aboard this ship that he penned the "Star Spangled Banner", the prose which would later become the national anthem.
That single fort and the few men inside gave the Limeys all sorts of hell. Eventually they gave up.

I have always preferred the third verse over the others, it has an uplifting and determination to it that I always found inspirational. Much like Fort McHenry, sometimes it is only a few good Soldiers that stand between the enemy and our homes and loved ones.

Response by Sgt Christopher Wenzel made Aug 30 at 2016 8:07 PM

Sgt Christopher Wenzel — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:07:40 -0400

The anthem was written by whites who lived in the time of the slave trade. The author probably saw slaves equivalent to cattle and the like. Some people are assholes. Perhaps this new information will lead to revisions.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Aug 30 at 2016 11:07 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 23:07:19 -0400

SSG Trust Palmer The Star Spangled Banner is a story and supposedly a TRUE story of a man on a ship being help captive and in the middle of a war and being bombarded with bombs. He was writing about this time...and his surroundings and how life was...as he knew it to be..... It was a very different time when this was written and I believe many take it out of its TRUE context. This being said, this now or taking it away is not going to change history. Just as I was/am totally against removing all things "CONFEDERATE" I am also against removing or changing the Star Spangled Banner.
The HISTORY of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA is our History and we should ALL OWN IT...and remember it...and remember how it evolved and changed and become what it is now...We should NOT be ashamed of it....times were very different back then and WE have all come a VERY VERY LONG ways.... We should never forget where we came from, how far we came and how much has been achieved since then....and NEVER forget how much has been achieved and strive to achieve more...for basic human rights...and for EQUALITY.....We WOMEN/FEMALES have come a long ways too...we no longer have to remain quiet and walk behind the man...we can vote and go to college and do all kinds of things women could not do when this country first started. CHANGE is a part of life and hopefully the Change will always be for the better and not for the worse.

Response by SGT Tim Soyars made Aug 31 at 2016 4:34 PM

SGT Tim Soyars — Wed, 31 Aug 2016 16:34:57 -0400

While the later verses do have some "issues", we never sing them. It's not like the old Virginia state song that talked bought "old darky". (Carry Me Back to Old Virginia, now the State Song Emeritus. It was found to be offensive to Blacks though, ironically, it was written by a black man.) The new state song is Our Great Virginia. The Star Spangled Banner spoke of hirelings and slaves in one line, buried in the third verse. So many people seem to forget this tidbit. Who were the first slaves brought here by the British? It was actually the Irish. (I'll reference a song by the group Flogging Molly, "Tobacco Island".) At the time of the writing for the SSB, Irish had been slaves in the Caribbean for several generations.

Response by SFC William A. McCoy made Sep 2 at 2016 7:13 AM

SFC William A. McCoy — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 07:13:24 -0400

All verses are pertinent to all citizens. I see no offensive verses except maybe to enemies of our nation.

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Sep 2 at 2016 6:52 PM

1LT William Clardy — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 18:52:46 -0400

SSG Trust Palmer, like many songs written during a war, "The Star-Spangled Banner" is best appreciated as a battle hymn, a call to action to fight the good fight. Personally, I think that the verses serve well as a call to rally round and fend off any particular foe, which is one (albeit not the only) purpose usually served by a national anthem. It is less morally arrogant than "The Battle Hymn of the Republic", and definitely has little of the coarseness found in more recent war songs (such as Toby Keith's "We'll put a boot in your a$$, it's the American way").

https://youtu.be/ruNrdmjcNTc

Toby Keith - Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue (The Angry American)

Hope On The Rocks Releases 10/30/2012 Pre-Order on iTunes here! http://smarturl.it/hotritunespre

Response by SFC George Smith made Sep 10 at 2016 3:34 PM

SFC George Smith — Sat, 10 Sep 2016 15:34:59 -0400

The Second and Third verses ...
As that we don't Use them or sing them and Because of the Controversy surrounding especially the 3rd Verse.… and they longer valid ... simply eliminate them ...

Response by COL Sam Russell made Sep 20 at 2016 7:48 AM

COL Sam Russell — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 07:48:28 -0400

Progression--progress--is a constant struggle. We recognize that, as a species, we are fallible. It is the history of mankind, regardless of race, ethnicity, or religion. As we progress toward an ideal, be it "Land of the free, home of the brave," or "Liberty and justice for all," or "All men are created equal," or "Liberté, égalité, fraternité," we will always be beset by regression, through our own frailty, distrust, bigotry, &c.

Some studies have suggested that we are wired, from the time we are born, to learn which faces to trust--our parents who look like us and protect us--and who not to trust--strangers who don't look like us. Thus our progressive struggle to be inclusive, accepting, diverse, and trustful of those who don't look like us, talk like us, or worship like us, is, in fact, an internal struggle against our most basic human makeup, a genetic protective mechanism evolved within us over millennia. We literally are wired to be bigoted.

Being inclusive, accepting of diversity, empathetic with those from different cultures, rubs against our innate grain. It is a struggle that every generation before us has faced, often failing miserably, and, more importantly, it is a struggle that every future generation will have to face. Let's hope they do better.

If I were a child psychologist I would include a link to Stranger Anxiety. I'm a historian, so following is a link to a historical look at our ongoing debate over our National Anthem.

https://theintercept.com/2016/09/13/more-proof-the-u-s-national-anthem-has-always-been-tainted-with-racism/

For the record, my upbringing has wired me to look with disdain at any American who doesn't stand during the National Anthem. It's just who I am, and I'm getting too damn old to change.

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More Proof the U.S. National Anthem Has Always Been Tainted With Racism

Our current difficulty in facing our past honestly and soberly strongly suggests that we are still a long way from laying it to rest.

Response by SSG David Lewis made Oct 13 at 2016 10:42 PM

SSG David Lewis — Thu, 13 Oct 2016 22:42:41 -0400

The verse refers to mercenaries and impressed sailors, period. This is just another attempt to stir up some crap. What's more, Colin K. didn't know anything about the third verse when he started this BS. He has a right to protest, I have a right not to watch, a right which millions of former football fans are exercising. Numbers for football in general are way down. Keep running the mouth, it costs the NFL a pile of cash. BTW, the original post only includes half the verse. Look at the whole verse, it's easier to understand what Key is writing about. This whole episode shows how little history Americans actually know, how easy it is for biased misanthropes with an agenda to manipulate people who don't actually know history--except that all of American history can be summed up in two words: Indians and slavery, everybody 30 and under knows that, right? Unfortunately, that's all they have been taught.

Response by LTC John Griscom made Oct 5 at 2017 10:46 AM

LTC John Griscom — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 10:46:46 -0400

Strongly agree with MSgt Roundtree's comments below. Our country was different then when the generations before us respected our God, our country and its flag. Now we have organizations and movements attacking those aspects of our lives that many still hold dear.

It is time to really get a good definition over what is meant by "separation of Church and State" as defined by certain legal opinions. The First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Just my personal opinion, but we have groups whose main purpose to attack our Christian faith and use a liberal court system to cry discrimination when they are the ones that are really discriminating. Interesting that they go to a baker who has a belief that does fit with their lifestyle when other bakers would welcome their business. I grew up when business had the the right to refuse service to anyone.

This comment may seem offline from from the original post, but it follows the part of the verse "And this be our motto - “In God is our trust,”