What are your thoughts on 25th ID's new motorcycle policies?

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 04:06:32 -0400

Policy letter #11 dated October 7, 2014 signed by 25th ID CG adds a fair number of restrictions/controls for motorcycle riders. I am enforcing this policy and have already made a fair number of corrections around Schofield Barracks, but I just want to know, Why are Motorcycle Riders being targeted? The standard TCLOCS(motorcycle inspection put out by the Motorcycle safety foundation) are no longer used we now have to use the 25th ID inspection form. This new policy is now in effect. It seems like we (Motorcycle Riders) is being discouraged from riding. I understand that it is dangerous, but so is driving a car. I mitigate my risk by wearing my full PPE on my bike just as I mitigate my risk by wearing a seat belt in my car. I ride defensively. I am constantly scanning for hazards on and near the road. I guess my question really is: Why is the Army trying to take away my favorite hobby and stress reliever? I am so much happier when I ride my bike back and forth to work. I actually come home in a good mood. Riding helps me to unwind and leave work at work. Driving a car just doesn't do that for me.

The motorcycle safety link on the 25th ID homepage doesn't work right now but I assume they will post the policy there. 16OCT14
http://www.25idl.army.mil/

Army Safety Program, motorcycle safety is section 11-9 page 68
http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r385_10.pdf

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 4:17 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 04:17:42 -0400

Motorcyclists are targeted because it's easier to demean the motorcyclist than it is to hold a "cager" accountable. I've seen so many instances where a rider was doing the right thing but gets hit by a stupid driver then it's all about more training for motorcyclists. Riding a motorcycle is not dangerous but it does have its risks. What is dangerous are the dumb actions of drivers as well as the dumb choices of some motorcyclists.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 19 at 2014 2:00 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 02:00:15 -0400

Unfortunately for us Soldiers the one who makes the rules is NOT the ARMY, but the post commander.. WHY? Because each post commander believes that they deserve to make the rules in their own mind and image. Is it right, NO. But it is what it is. we simply have to wait until the next guy takes command,

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 1:42 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 13:42:14 -0400

As an avid motorcycle rider and a Senior NCO, I may not agree with policies, however, I get paid to "shoot and salute". We as motorcyclists have done this to ourselves, when we are caught speeding, busting wheelies down the highway, and generally not having good order and discipline. This is what we do...1. Obey the local laws to the "T". I always slow down for the guy in uniform that tailgates me while I do the speed limit while he/she is texting while driving. I make it a point to follow those Soldiers to their destination and educate them on state laws and local policy. 2. Report all Soldiers that are doing the wrong thing in their POV. I have seen numerous rollovers on the road that goes to HMR. I have only been here a year. That road is 35mph with a double yellow. I have been passed on this road while doing the speed limit several times. I do believe there needs to be an addition to the post policies; if a motorcyclist has to self report and lose a year of on post driving privilege, then so do the bad POV drivers...Fair is Fair right?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 2:40 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:40:56 -0400

SGT Domsic

Since the page does not have the policy, can you copy and paste the wording here?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 7:34 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 19:34:38 -0400

It was like that when I was there from 09-12, and it is because people keep having accidents and riding without PPE. I remember when I heard that the Army no longer required the wearing of the bright vests, but we were still required to wear them. I am sure that they still have you do the 25 ID check ride to certify you on the bike you are going to ride. Upon return from Afghanistan all motorcycle riders had to meet with the battalion commander who walked in and said how much he hated motorcycles, and went so far as to say that if it starts raining on you while riding to pull over and wait for it to start. Anyone who has been to Hawaii knows that if you pulled over every time it started raining you would never get anywhere. I have now refused to ride my motorcycle since I PCS'd in 2012 because I am tired of being made to do all of these extra steps to ride. I already have all of the MSF endorsements needed to ride, and I refuse to participate in group rides because I do not enjoy riding with people who I normally would not ride with.

Rant Over

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 21 at 2014 11:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Oct 2014 23:41:41 -0400

Daniel,
Since each post commander feels that they now have the right to inflict their version of the rules this will never end. There is no longer a 'big Army' that makes all the rules. Each post is it's own fiefdom. we must pay homage to each ruler while keeping the perception that we are all serving our one commander in chief. If you think that this is rather harsh, maybe it is. I have been in the Army for over 22 years, and I have never seen the officer entitlement be more flagrant than it is now. This hits at the core of your question, now the peripheral. I think that any additions to the regs is wrong. Period.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 22 at 2014 12:02 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 00:02:26 -0400

Folks...I can't speak for the Army...sounds like you have the pulse there. Let me give you my perspective...the guy on the outside looking in... I ride motorcycles. I've also been the safety officer for multiple commands. I can't tell you how many of the motorcylce accidents that I had to deal with were fatalities but most of them were. On one command, almost 98% of the motorcycle accidents I was notified of were fatalities. Of all the "cagers" that had accidents, there were an average of 16 to 28% that were fatalities. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to talk to the fatalities and of course every witness has their unreliability factors. What I can say is: (1) every single fatality means some commanding officer has to write a letter. What that CO can't say in the letter is that the accident could have been prevented if the motorcyclist had had better training on mitigating the "cagers" blindspots or if the cyclist had modified their behavior, PPE, etc, etc, etc. Then the base commander has to write up the accident and explain what they're doing to prevent a normally preventable accident to all sorts of organizations, Congress, etc, etc. etc. In one command, I know personally that the Base commander made it his personal mission to make it almost impossible for anyone to be permitted to drive a motorcycle on base - from inspections, to increased requirements, etc. ----- all because he was tired of explaining, and writing and explaining and writing and explaining and writing.......on and on and on.

As mentioned in several sections of this thread...the motorcyclist themselves are usually the creators of our own problems. How many of us with more than 12k miles on a bike can honestly say we've never gone around a "cager" when it was obviously not the best time to do it? If you raise your hand....I may start reaching for the bull$hit flag.

Yes, it's a MF on some commands. On one command in Japan the base commander was such a stickler I never registered my Harley on base. I kept it off base in a garage and caught a ride to my bike.

Response by PO3 John Jeter made Oct 22 at 2014 1:18 AM

PO3 John Jeter — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 01:18:26 -0400

Base commands are going to take the shortest route for the greatest result. Since bikes are not a predominant form of transport it's far easier to place the onus of safety on the riders. If that burden reduces the number of bikes on base, so much the better for them. Also, the dedicated riders like yourself that stick it out and bear that burden are far less likely to do something to risk that privilege. That can work in the riders favor though, in the event of an accident. With all the PPE and visibility gear in use, it's much harder for a cager to say "I just didn't see him!"

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Oct 22 at 2014 8:09 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Wed, 22 Oct 2014 20:09:34 -0400

I haven't seen the policy yet, but I've heard of its terrors. Something about wearing armored jackets? It seems extreme for a state that has no protective gear/helmet requirements for the USAG to adopt the exact oppostite stance. My biggest concern is heat injuries. All those motorcyclists on Hawaii will gladly tell you about the heat and humdity, which isn't bad if you're going 70mph on the freeway, but going 25 in traffic for an hour in that much gear will put the best of us at risk for injury. Today is 89 degrees with humidty, anyone who knows the pain of Hawaii traffic and can imagine that without A/C would surely cry a few tears. If we want to prevent traffic accidents, we need to focus more on the cause and not putting motorcyclists in bubble shields.

"According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, head-on collisions account for more than half of all fatal motorcycle accidents in the United States. These crashes almost always involve a passenger vehicle, and the driver of the vehicle is usually at fault. Since it’s more difficult for a car driver to see a motorcyclist, the risk of head-on collision where the car driver is at fault is more likely. The next factor that causes is motorcycle accidents is vehicles making left-hand turns. These types of accidents are responsible for close to 42% of motorcycle fatalities."

So over 90% of accidents involve a car, and the driver of the car is usually at fault. Recklessness doesn't seem like the primary issue here, if anything we need to provide motorcycle awareness for ALL drivers.

I think the purpose behind this policy is to influence soldiers not to ride, especially foreseeing the heat they have to endure. I'm grateful I work on a Marine Base, and will probably avoid going to an Army base with my bike until this policy is rescinded.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 9:21 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 21:21:33 -0400

Is this the policy memo you are referring to?

http://www.garrison.hawaii.army.mil/command/Memos/MotorcycleSafetyPolicy.pdf

Response by COL Randall C. made Oct 26 at 2014 9:57 PM

COL Randall C. — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 21:57:25 -0400

I just came across this thread and have seen some correct and incorrect information. For those that haven't seen it yet, the policy is here:
http://www.garrison.hawaii.army.mil/command/Memos/MotorcycleSafetyPolicy.pdf
http://www.garrison.hawaii.army.mil/command/Memos/MotorcycleSafetyPolicy_AnnexA.pdf

Also, understand that many of the comments directed against the 25th or the Army need to go higher up. DoD mandated many, if not most, of the requirements (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/605504p.pdf) come from there. For example, DoD mandates the wearing of helmets, eye protection foot protection and PPE.

First, like many of the US Army Hawaii policies, yes, this does apply to soldiers on or off duty, on or off installation. In addition, this applies to ANYONE operating a motorcycle on US Army Hawaii installations.

Second, AR 385-10 (The Army Safety Program) lists a whole host of things that are required for driver's safety training, regardless of which conveyance you drive. If you read through it, you'll see a bunch of stuff that you probably never knew you were supposed to be doing - because just like many other requirements in the military, there are requirements, and there are REQUIREMENTS. I once told my Brigade Commander that my primary function as a Battalion Commander was to manage failure. I've so many different requirements that I'm supposed to meet based on guidance, regulations, statutes, policy, etc. that it's impossible to meet them all, so I have to figure out what's going to fail. Sadly, many of those safety courses seem to fall into this category until something goes wrong and then everyone scrambles.

Third, I disagree with the sentiment posted by some that motorcyclists are being targeted unfairly. Motorcycle related fatalities are the leading non-war cause of death among service members. Is there any reason that DoD is specifically targeting motorcycle drivers? If the leading cause of death was due to slip and fall accidents, would you be surprised if they came up with safety policies targeting that? Outside of combat, during my service more Soldiers I'm personally acquainted with have died (3) or were seriously injured in (7) motorcycle accidents than anything else I can recall.

A few of the quotes from the Army's motor cycle handbook, "Motorcycles are harder to see, and require the motorcyclist to be a “smarter” and “better” driver than those of the 4-wheeled world. Motorcycles are like helicopters- they require constant input and constant response. They also require the rider to respond to quickly. Motorcycles will not “drive” themselves. From the time you start your motorcycle to the time you park it, you are working against many laws- the law of gravity, and the laws of physics." So SSG Private RallyPoint Member is right (I don't agree with your first sentence, but I do agree with the rest) in that he alluded to that the motorcycle almost always comes out on the losing side against other vehicles.

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member, the only mention in the new policy about inspections is in Annex A where it states that "On a monthly basis, units will perform inspections of riders' motorcycles, licensing and PPE materials. If a riders' bike, licensing or PPE does not meet the Army, USARHAW, or Hawaii State standards then ...." Looking at what USARHAW's site, the inspection checklist is still the TCLOCS (http://www.garrison.hawaii.army.mil/safety/Motorcycle_PPE_Insp_Card.pdf). Not sure who is using something else, but apparently it isn't what's being put out by the command (if it is, please let me know and point me towards the correct info).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 20 at 2015 1:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 May 2015 13:32:18 -0400

DLI put in some pretty strict on post riding restrictions in place. This turned the street just outside the gate into a motorcycle parking lot.

If you push too hard then Joe will just work around it. He will store the bike off post, buy a used hayabusa with straight pipes and bald tires and other forms of modified suicide. The policy, particularly since it is only on installation will result in less ability to mitigate risk buy mentoring and training than could otherwise be the case

If Iraq taught us anything it would be that attacking the symptom is a aste of time and energy and often makes things worse.

If you want to address this issue then the key is to transmit riding skills to new riders rather than simply attempt implement a set of policies that will be ignored as soon as they cross the gate.

How about making a tiered program for new riders, encouraging a secondary market of the smaller (250-300) soldier to soldier transfers. Funding on post riding groups and encouraging senior riders to participate (yes that means that we get volentold to be there).

The goal is to increase skills while encouraging good behavior and creating apeer environment that leads to good choices. Or we can hit the problem with a blanket reg that is easy to circumvent, kinda like hitting jello with a sledge hammer.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 29 at 2015 8:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 20:42:32 -0400

While I can agree that it seems that us motorcycle enthusiasts are being targeted, I see it like any other ARMY safety policy. The reason the policy exists is due to those individuals who choose not to protect themselves. I see it almost everyday when I am leaving schofield. Soldiers will wear the half sleeves, pull over on the side of the road, and strip down into a tshirt. BLOWS MY MIND. But I will say that this policy, at least regarding the wear of proper PPE does not bother me nor discourage me from riding everyday, rain or shine. I have heard through the riding grape vine as well as from a few MPs on post that they are being told by garrison command to pull over all motorcyclists to check that they have their up to date MSF cards. Should you have it? YES. Is it easy to obtain? YES. Should they target motorcyclists specifically for this purpose? NO. This is why we have a command structure and leaders.

Response by SPC Ken Sawyer made Jan 17 at 2017 1:20 PM

SPC Ken Sawyer — Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:20:24 -0500

It's a good thing that the 25th id doesn't ever get shot at i mean there is a risk there isn't there? Its a sad day when you need "special training " to ride your bike on post so glad I'm out. I ran into this issue at an Air Force base in FL where my son was taking his EOD course. I pulled up to the gate and a 20 something young lady asked me to see my motorcycles safety class document. I was like listen here i have been riding longer than you have been alive. Fortunately there was an officer there that wasn't a complete idiot. I told him i was going to guest housing which was in the line of sight of the gate. He allowed me to go on in i just had to change gloves because mine were fingerless.