Was the creation of the CAB really necessary? (A touchy subject)

2014-10-25T00:14:02-04:00

Im surprised this hasn't been brought up already here.

I have some strong sentiment about the CIB, as I have been awarded one, and the sub-sequential creation of the CAB, which I have also been awarded. The creation of the CIB during WWII was to illuminate the particular hell in which Infantrymen endure in combat. The CAB was created to address a cry from the rest of the Army to recognize other soldiers who had "engaged" the enemy in some fashion. This insinuates that these soldiers make direct contact with the enemy as a regular part of their MOS, like Infantrymen do. Im sorry, I just don't feel like a TIC that involves breaking contact with the enemy once or twice to be awarded the CAB comes anywhere near close to the singular mission of the Infantry in seeking out, closing with and eliminating the enemy for the entire duration of a tour.

Was the creation of the CAB really necessary? I think not. Much like those who served in WWII who saw action with enemy and got no badge to show for it, I feel that the same absence of award should be due those whose job is not wholly and solely defined by active combat with the enemy.

Let me say that I know soldiers who are not in the Infantry do sometimes find themselves in combat situations. But I do not feel that there was a need for this award to be created, and the "murkiness" of the eligibility criteria for awarding it further degrades its necessity or esteem.

Im sure my comments will upset a few of you out there, I expect it, but my intent is not to insult anyone. This is merely my observation and sentiment and I am looking forward to some honest and heartfelt discourse.

Lets hear it....

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 12:15 AM

2014-10-25T00:15:32-04:00

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up yet either. Personally, I despise the CAB. It sets a bad precedence for other awards especially for the CIB and EFMB.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 12:26 AM

2014-10-25T00:26:32-04:00

I see both sides of the house. We recognize those who are in infantry units, but yet if an infantry Soldier is engaged but not attached or assigned to an infantry unit they get a CAB not a CIB. That makes no sense to me. I also heard if you are assigned or attached to infantry unit but are not infantry MOS you do not get CIB. So that is confusing enough just dealing with the infantry units and Soldiers. To be honest I may or may not have been eligible for a CAB depending on who would review the supporting documentation that I never went through the pain to get. I was near a mortar that went off, but seriously does one event define and warrant a CAB? Some say yes, some say no. Some units that were not infantry are engaged daily running supplies from FOBs to FOBs or route clearance. The CAB allows them to be recognized as we no longer have a front where only the infantry and Marines go, but rather only FOBs, COBs, OPs, etc. where anyone can get hit and engaged at anytime. I think the CAB was developed to recognize the change in mission that we face as we change in battle.

As far as CAB and CIB not really interested in it. The EIB is where they actually "earn" the badge is what most of my infantry friends tell me.

Response by 1SG David Spalding made Oct 25 at 2014 7:40 AM

2014-10-25T07:40:36-04:00

My opinion on the CIB, CAB, CMB and EIB. I have been awarded three of the four. The EIB (way) back in 1982, and had I not been fresh out of basic and AIT, I don’t think I would have survived the tests. In 2007, I was assigned to CJSOTF as an 11B, but in a 13F (FSO) position. We received some pretty heavy mortar and rocket fire, and I was put in for, and awarded the CAB. Fast forward a few months, and I’m still with CJSOTF as and 11B, but moved to an 18C position. We engage the Taliban a few times with M2s, M4s and M240s (direct fire). I was put in for, and awarded the CIB. I will never receive the CMB as I am not a Medic, but I hold that badge in really high honor. According to AR 670-1, the CIB, EIB and CAB are all in the same group, so only one may be worn at a time. The CMB is on a lower tier but may be worn with, but below the CIB or CAB (which I completely disagree with). Why the CMB is not in the same group, I do not understand. The correct order (in my mind) should be: 1-CIB, 2-CMB, 3-CAB, 4-EIB. Any Grunts out there disagree?

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 25 at 2014 8:08 AM

2014-10-25T08:08:37-04:00

IMHO the issue with the CAB is the criteria are to vague. One usually chases a CAB on a New York City street corner, not in a combat zone - which is what I constantly saw. Every Tom, Dick and Jane was writing up statements every time they were "near" where a mortar round went off. I had one individual ask me to write a statement (I refused) when we were on a shuttle bus at Camp Victory and a few rounds went overhead. It got to the point of entitled lunacy. In some cases, a person in a vehicle got one while another person in the same vehicle didn't (they were supposedly "danger close" when a mortar round hit) like WTF?

I believe there needs to be a way to award non-Infantry personnel who have been involved in combat - the CAB. That being said I feel that a CAB needs to be awarded for a witnessed (not self-witnessed) action where one is engaged DIRECTLY by hostile forces - a mortar round or IED shouldn't count unless a purple heart is awarded too.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 25 at 2014 8:27 AM

2014-10-25T08:27:12-04:00

CSM Private RallyPoint Member I have high regard for the CIB and the Infantry, with 2 WWII awardees in my family. Correct me if I'm wrong but the CIB is awarded for a particular action/engagement not just an entire tour in a combat zone.

I'd like to get your perspective on this following issue. I and the rest of our staff believed my commander (O-7) followed the regs after consulting the JAG ad other leaders. we believe he did what he thought was right but since none of us were 11Bs, an 11B perspective would help.

We were an MP Bde with an Infantry Bn assigned to us serving as an MP unit - running a detention facility. There were several claims that members of the unit, a squad at most, engaged foreign fighters on one possibly 2 instances. The Bn commander insisted that the Bn be awarded the CIB, to which my boss declined, 1) because the unit was not serving as an infantry unit, they were running a detention facility - no standard Infantry jobs, no patrols, no ambushes, etc. and 2) because only a few soldiers were involved, there was no "blanket" award. He was willing to award CABs to the individuals involved but that was seen as a "disgrace" by the commander and no statements were ever submitted, nor CABs awarded.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2014 11:06 AM

2014-10-25T11:06:55-04:00

I guess my biggest problem with the CAB is the blatant fraud it produced. It became an accessory that everyone "needed to have" to show they'd been there, done that. As a Personnel Sergeant, I saw ridiculous false statements get turned in in order to get one, as well as one particularly flamboyant attempt by some rear-echelon types to get a CIB.
It is too bad, but commanders have to be the ones to uphold the standard.

Response by MAJ Jim Woods made Oct 26 at 2014 4:17 PM

2014-10-26T16:17:20-04:00

As an Infantryman with a CIB, I have no problem with the CAB. From Vietnam on we have fought wars that had no real rear area. The Non Infantry folks get into some really bad S__T just like we did. They should be recognized for it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 4:40 PM

2014-10-26T16:40:57-04:00

I personally believe the CAB should of never happened. It was meant for other combat arms MOS's ie 19D, 19K etc and because the the requirements for it are so different than the CIB one can argue that it has been grossly awarded. (Though I know some infantry guys may not have met the exact requirements and had it awarded that is the same with a lot of awards.)

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 6:29 PM

2014-10-26T18:29:59-04:00

Few people know that there was once a combat Artilleryman's badge too with a red background... Now, on the one hand Infantrymen have several distinctive uniform items and deserve all the credit they can get. A few other badges existed and now we have a lot more. Airborne people whined about creation of the Air Assault (wings) badge. My late father in law (CSM Marlette, 3rd ID) was one of the few with a CIB with two stars (WWII, Korea, VN). He thought all other badges were candy. Didn't think too much of a driver's badge either but he was all for anything that motivated a trooper. He was a grunt for 32.5 years and on the first CSM list. That's a hard life. He was entitled to his opinion.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 7:18 PM

2014-10-26T19:18:19-04:00

First let me say I have not been awarded a CAB. As I understand it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but the CIB is meant soley for infantry, meaning you have an infantry MOS and are serving in an infantry unit when you saw combat (meaning came under fire and returned fire). And the CMB is for medics in the same situation. If that is so then what would someone who is in a supporting MOS receive if situated right next to an 11B when the 11B earns their CIB? I was awarded a CAR (different service) and was given the opportunity to convert it to a CAB when I entered the Army, to which I said no. The Navy and Marines have the CAR and it is open to all MOS's, criteria is come under fire from the enemy and return fire in a tactical engagement. I was an artilleryman on a security patrol when it happened. Many units do deploy as provisional rifle companies or security companies and do the same or very similar things that infantry does. The Army could drop the three combat badges and make either just one or a ribbon or medal to signify that you deployed and weren't just a bystander, i.e. fobbit. For now feel fomfort that when it comes to the combat badges there still remains a pecking order: CIB-CMB-CAB, and there's also the expert badges that only apply to infantry and medic: EIB-EFMB which are placed higher then the combat badges because those are the same hell everywhere and lets face it, some combat is worse then others.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 7:45 PM

2014-10-26T19:45:43-04:00

Not upset, and MSG I applaud you for raising the discussion. As a former Marine Infantry NCO (where we wore almost no devices on our uniform) and a 10+ year Army officer, I have viewed the issue from different perspectives.

To me, I think creating the CAB was a good thing, and don't know anyone that thinks it's a "CIB equivalent" device, but instead a way of recognizing that some Soldiers performed their duty well while under fire.

Regardless of my personal feelings, I also believe that it motivates Soldiers and gives them another thing to be proud of, and anything that does that I will probably support.

As far as "short TICs" vs long patrols, individuals can argue those stories one on one, but I imagine that will be as productive as arguing if Marines are tougher than Rangers, if West Point officers are better than ROTC, or whose dad can kick someone else's dad's butt...not really worth debate.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 8:11 PM

2014-10-26T20:11:22-04:00

I too have seen whole units also submitted for CABs based on x-number of mortar rounds landing on the base from day one of the deployment until their departure...... Soldiers that lived and worked with those same Soldiers but in different units never were submitted for it. Very ambiguous as to who gets it and who doesn't. I have no doubt it was created with good intent, but just like with deployment awards, fairness and equity doesn't always apply. On the flip side, I know of 11Bs that worked in the S-shops during a deployment and were also awarded CIB, so it happens all over.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Oct 27 at 2014 10:43 AM

2014-10-27T10:43:33-04:00

The initial reasoning behind the creation of and the awarding of the CAB was to recognize the actions of those in direct combat operations that did not hold an Infantry MOS. No offense but the OP and a lot of the responses to it from members of the 11 series show a typical bias against anything being awarded to show recognition for anyone but themselves. Now it is true that the criteria behind the awarding of this badge became somewhat suspect, but there are a whole lot of people that EARNED this recognition through their actions in combat, myself included. In response one could ask if the awarding of the CIB today is relevant as the hardships endured by the Infantry forces today pale in comparison to those endured when the badge was created to recognize them during WWII. As for categorizing Infantry as the only MOS that is purely designed for combat, I will say this, tell that to all of the Infantry guys that rode trucks into Baghdad following my tanks; I think that my MOS more than qualifies as one that is purely designed for combat as well as my Infantry brethren.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Oct 27 at 2014 9:45 PM

2014-10-27T21:45:12-04:00

The CIB, as I've read it's history and seen it awarded, is supposed to recognize the enduring fight infantrymen face as part of the overall deployment. To purposefully seek out, close with, and destroy the enemy. The CIB is awarded for a singular event, but is earned over the entire length of that tour.

I'd have to agree that a large problem is that there is no governing branch fully own the branch. the CIB has it's infantrymen and SF soldiers, the CMB has it's medics. An interesting argument I've heard from other 68 series soldiers is that they resent not having this option to distinguish themselves. They are eligible for the EFMB, but not the CMB.

The CAB needs to be made into something worth respecting. Inconsistencies in awarding the badge are driving down it's general representative value. That goes for any badge that requires sworn statements for presentation. I had a hell of a time trying to tell an infantry commander that he couldn't award one of my medics a CAB just because there were no wounded after a TIC in Afghanistan. Some of my battalion's medics still slipped through the cracks. CAB's were presented to them for being engaged by the enemy while working with an SFA team or a logistics convoy. Some commander's didn't understand that the medics assigned to an infantry battalion DO NOT qualify for anything other the CMB and it's specific award criteria.

Why not go one step further and create an Expert variant of the CAB? I've often been told that expert badges can carry a little more weight because it's requirements are quantifiable. If you wear the expert badge, I know that you did these tasks to this standard. The combat badges don't often have the same consistency. A small ambush or keeping your OP from being over run is hard to distinguish from just what is pinned to the uniform.

What would an Expert Action Badge require? All in all, the CAB just needs some more time to develop it's history. It comes down to commander's and NCO's to ensure the awarding criteria keep a standard.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made May 10 at 2015 7:31 AM

2015-05-10T07:31:52-04:00

Are we not in the generation of everyone must have a trophy?

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 10 at 2015 9:10 AM

2015-05-10T09:10:39-04:00

Yes... absolutely, positively YES!

CIB and CMB badges restrict the pool to those serving in a combat role.
As we all know, sometimes combat comes to you, regardless of MOS.

I know one cook that grabbed a M60 one night and burned thru a pile of 7.62 in a highly controlled and effective manner while taking both incoming small arms and RPG fire. If that ain't combat I will kiss a duck.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made May 10 at 2015 9:21 AM

2015-05-10T09:21:00-04:00

I'm a Navy guy, Corpsman, with a couple of years in the submarine service and some time with a Marine unit. I don't get the whole "award tied to a job description" thing. Just my .02, but if you are on-line with an infantry unit in combat, then you should get the CIB......engineer, medic, communicator. Same place, same event, same badge. I don't think that the Navy or Marine Corps have any awards tied to your MOS/NEC - you either earn it or you don't.

Response by SFC Steven Harvey made May 10 at 2015 10:13 AM

2015-05-10T10:13:25-04:00

As a Signal guy with the CAB I believe it was a mistake. I was originially awarded a CAB being at LSA Anaconda (mortarville) and declined it. I saw WAY too many Soldiers being awarded that badge for a mortar landing 300m+ away.

I received the one I wear today from 1AD for my third tour in Tal-Afar in 2006/2007. That who tour was rough. Wasn't a day that went by where something was going down when 1AD replaced 3ACR.

The guidelines should have clearly stated direct combat and excluded indirect combat.

The CAB to me is sorta like a combat patch. There are those who know the things we went through to be able to wear it and then there are those who sat in AC all day talking about why the DFAC or their tour sucks when they haven't seen 50 yards past the FOB.

Response by CW4 Don Kite made Sep 12 at 2015 6:04 PM

2015-09-12T18:04:37-04:00

My Grandfather served during WWII and was awarded a CIB. He was a carpenter and fought from Normandy through the end of the war as infantry!!! He was never awarded and Infantry MOS. I think that the Combat Action Badge is mis-named. As the Army was evolving and needed the skills of the infantry. There became a need to recognized those individuals for their combat contribution. It is my belief that it should have been named the Combat Soldiers Badge and that a Soldiers Badge should be created to train those critical infantry skills that non-infantry need to be successful in todays combat environment.

Response by 1SG David Spalding made Sep 24 at 2015 8:58 PM

2015-09-24T20:58:44-04:00

The reason the CIB was originally created was: After the United States' declaration of war in 1941, the War Department had difficulty recruiting infantry branch volunteers, namely due to the fact that "of all Soldiers, it was recognized that the infantryman continuously operated under the worst conditions and performed a mission that was not assigned to any other Soldier or unit ... [t]he infantry, a small portion of the total Armed Forces, was suffering the most casualties while receiving the least public recognition."
On 27 October 1943, the War Department formally established the Combat Infantryman Badge (CIB) and the Expert Infantryman Badge (EIB) awards in Section I, War Department Circular 269 (27 October 1943):
The present war has demonstrated the importance of highly-proficient, tough, hard, and aggressive infantry, which can be obtained only by developing a high degree of individual all-around proficiency on the part of every infantryman. As a means of attaining the high standards desired and to foster esprit de corps in infantry units; the Expert Infantryman and the Combat Infantryman badges are established for infantry personnel.

I have both the CIB and CAB, awarded during the same tour as an 11B. The CIB as I was with an SF team for part of the tour (18 series position), and the CAB as I was the FSO for most of the tour (13 series position). While I do not completely disagree with the creation of the CAB, it should not have been put on the same level as the CIB. The CAB is for being in close combat (more or less), the CIB is for actively engaging he enemy with direct fire. Difference? The CAB is most often awarded for where a Soldier was. The CIB is awarded for what a Soldier did. Big difference.

Response by MGySgt George W Iliffe Jr made Sep 24 at 2015 9:17 PM

2015-09-24T21:17:47-04:00

As an outsider a U.S. Marine we are in positions to earn a CAR (Combat Action Ribbon) I never studied the difference to a CIB or CAB but I have no problem for non- infantry folks to earn an award that they performed well during a fire fight .

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 25 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-09-25T09:57:04-04:00

No badges are necessary. They're just incentive items to either get people into high demand MOS's, schools, or to reward hazardous duties. But necessary? No.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 25 at 2015 10:06 AM

2015-09-25T10:06:19-04:00

That's why I'm proud to wear the only one that hasn't become a participation trophy...

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Dec 26 at 2015 12:41 AM

2015-12-26T00:41:30-05:00

I had a team chief once who was an infantryman in the 173rd on Operation Hump. He had a CIB along with a purple heart and a bunch of other stuff. Some of his BDUs had the CIB and the 173rd patch, most had nothing. Only time I saw all his stuff was during a court martial. I asked him why once and he said it wasn't worth the dollar to get each thing sewn on. End of the day he knew who he was and didn't give a shit if others did not.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made Jun 22 at 2016 4:56 PM

2016-06-22T16:56:24-04:00

I guess you could look at it that way-On the other hand I remember watching the Victory Parade in DC at the end of the first Gulf War and most of the soldiers marching had a CIB yet ground combat lasted less than 72 hours so one could question if these were justly deserved though I certainly feel if they were awarded they were earned!

Response by SGT Alicia Brenneis made Oct 7 at 2016 7:27 PM

2016-10-07T19:27:33-04:00

I have a question. 11B are a combat mos. Their entire job/training is based around combat action. From some of the comments, I have gathered that most are agreeing that 11Bs should continue to get a badge and non-combats should get a lesser recognition ribbon. So am I getting it right that 11Bs should get a badge for doing their jobs and those who are non-combat should either get no recognition or a ribbon? I'm seriously not understanding this mindset. This may be a bad example but it is kind of my thought process: if a firefighter puts out a house fire saving a family of 4 and a mailman puts out a house fire saving a family of 4.... who should get what? The CIB is a good tradition and I am not knocking or arguing against it. I am just over this "my combat experience means more than yours" argument.

Response by SGT Anthony Stiefel made Oct 7 at 2016 10:10 PM

2016-10-07T22:10:10-04:00

Sooooooo what about Forward Observers? You know, the 13F that lives, eats, shits, and breathes with the infantry? I'm not saying I wanted my own special award but the only combat badge we are eligible for is the CAB. So since we literally spend the same time in combat as our Infantry counterparts do we not deserve recognition? I understand there are those that abuse the CAB as just another uniform decoration they can show off at their next Dental Ball, but for some of us that spend a shit load of time in combat it's all we get.

I had no need to feel special which is why I didn't care about Blue Discs, Cords, or Badges; maybe that's the difference between us. I just knew that when shit hit the fan I was always there to save some asses and call for the medivac.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2016 10:57 PM

2016-10-07T22:57:59-04:00

Question: is the criteria for awarding of the CIB involve more than one "TIC"?
No award is necessary, per say.
If one is concerned when the rest of the Army has an award that is somewhat the equivalent of something that was limited to infantry only; just remember which branch is the only one authorized to wear branch colors ( infantry cord and disks).

Response by PO1 Eric Booker made Oct 8 at 2016 8:00 AM

2016-10-08T08:00:54-04:00

The joke used to be that someone "had more medals than a General in the Mexican Air Force". NOW...the Mexicans are saying the same thing about us. My great uncle built mulberrys under fire at Normandy as a SeeBee, then got shipped over to build airstrips on the island hopping campaign in the Pacific during WWII. He said they took so much mortar fire from the bluffs that after a few hundred they quit ducking...figured if one hit it wouldn't do any good anyhow. He saw more direct action during that time than most here...and has a whopping two rows of ribbons/medals. There's a term for it..."Medal Creep".

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2016 11:49 PM

2016-10-08T23:49:04-04:00

Personally when I earned my CAB in 04/05 during my first rotation to Iraq I was ok with it. I was on the ground with some infantry cats and was in formation with them when awarded their CIB's. I was pinned with a CIB and then stripped of it after formation since I wasn't infantry. Ok no problem. My second tour again in a unit formation this time for the CAB. I pinned it on and then watched as some rear echelon troops who flew in from Kuwait just for the formation got theirs pinned on. Well after formation I took that CAB off and refused to put it on again.
I agree with the idea but think that the Army needs to make the requirements for awarding it more stringent. Just from my own experience it seems that they will give it to anyone and the only requirement is that you be assigned to a deployed unit.
If they changed this since I was active I don't know but I have seen too many soldiers wearing one who never set foot outside the wire. Even seen on SNCO who never deployed with one.

Response by SPC Derrick Brown made Jan 14 at 2017 6:35 PM

2017-01-14T18:35:45-05:00

To me, it was just checking a box saying it happened. But I was a cavalry trooper and we saw action all the time. Got mine pinned to my chest and every CAB holder in my unit came by and tapped it. I still remember it as a wonderful ceremony and it even brings remembering drops to my eyes when I think about it. In my unit, it was a badge saying you could perform under pressure. The new guys didn't have it. The new guys wanted to be tried and tested. Everyone pretended that it didn't matter, but we knew the score. So it's a situational award. Bravo to those who are not in infantry (armor) don't get a special badge for doing our job under fire. But we'll take what we can get and keep the b*thing to a minimum.

Response by CW2 Fred Baker made Jul 30 at 2017 1:11 PM

2017-07-30T13:11:32-04:00

Didn't have the CAB when I served. I feel my DFC, PH, Air Medel with 18 oak leaf clusters RVN Cross of Gallantry w/bronze star among others is sufficient.

Response by CW4 Don Kite made Aug 3 at 2017 2:07 PM

2017-08-03T14:07:22-04:00

Since WWII the battlefield has changed dramaticall. There are no front lines and some MOS's are blended with what the infantry does. For example the MP's patrol and do searches. I myself, was responsible for the maintenance of the vehicles and equipment the infantry used and worked closely with them. What about the Transportation CORPS, they were on the rides more than anyone; with IED's the predominant weapon of choice it is very hard to differentiate or choose what job should be recognized. On this NEW battlefield we do not close with enemy as we did in yester years. We use intelligence and mass on the objective. Armor soldiers can be and are used to perform these duties. So the creation and award of the CAB was needed and is substantiate.