Was going away from requiring an NCOES school to become an NCO a bad move?

2015-10-06T22:50:21-04:00

A long time ago when I first came into the Army as a young PFC you were required to attend PLDC, or Primary Leadership Development Course, before you could pin on your stripes. Even those of us that were promoted on a waiver while deployed had to attend within a certain timeframe or we would lose our stripes.

I was a fan of this system. I believe that institutional instruction was an asset to professional development. But when the Army moved to the Warrior Leaders Course only being a requirement to attain the promotable status as a SGT we lost ground in professional development. Over time you would have less and less institutionally trained NCOs developing other NCOs. I have found that the SSD's try to make up for this but I rarely find that anyone take these serious. They are more of a check the blocks than the gates to being an NCO.

For those that have been in long enough do believe this affected the NCO corps? Did the Army NCO Corps maintain their professionalism without going to the school house to be an NCO?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-10-06T23:08:24-04:00

When I went through WLC as a specialist I didn't feel that I learned anything I hadn't already known. Maybe it was simple or maybe my leadership had properly prepared me to be a leader. The only thing I felt that was important to me was learning to work with people from different sides of the army. Support MOS's, females and so on. Maybe it is necessary for some people to go so they get the tools to be a successful NCO but definitely not necessary for everyone.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:08 PM

2015-10-06T23:08:38-04:00

Hopefully there's enough NCOES school slots for Guard troops, otherwise it will simply mean that we have even more SPC team leaders, and SGT squad leaders than we already do. Even so, I don't think it's a bad thing that we're going back to that system.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:17 PM

2015-10-06T23:17:31-04:00

Side rant: I remember doing SSD V as a SPC (P). It wasn't easy either.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:23 PM

2015-10-06T23:23:18-04:00

I completed WLC as a SPC. I considered it a rite of passage because I already knew most of the curriculum. Therefore, I did my best to ensure my Soldiers were able to feel the same way when they attended WLC. However, that rite of passage does serve a purpose of proving that knowledge is present. NCOES training serves that purpose, i believe.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:44 PM

2015-10-06T23:44:28-04:00

Fortunately for me I came up thru the old days. Yes, LT, I believe the NCO core is somewhat compromised. The core is filled with cut-throat NCO & NCOER bullet chasers. Mentorship is gone, Soldiers promoted to fast and they do not understand what it takes and mean to be a NCO. NCOES has nothing to do with except WLC being cut to two weeks. I don't think NCOES makes you a professional, it's the leaders grooming, teaching, coaching & mentoring Soldiers, which is no longer the case.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Oct 7 at 2015 12:07 AM

2015-10-07T00:07:15-04:00

You can change the acronym...officers have to do something with their time...as long as you provide the training leaders need to develop their professional skills. Was there ever a difference between PNCOC, PLDC, and WLC? Probably not when you boil it down?

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Oct 7 at 2015 12:12 AM

2015-10-07T00:12:22-04:00

Soldiers desiring to be promoted should be self-starters. This means they should take the initiative to learn everything necessary to move up to the next level. Units should ensure these prospective Soldiers have a mentor in the next higher grade bringing them along. These Soldiers should be placed as an acting team or squad leader position and mentored. These prospective “promotees” should know everything they need to know before they attend that required NCOES course. To me, nearly all professional development schools lasting 1 – 2 months (or less) are nothing more than check the box schools – same with online training. In my opinion, it is the Soldier’s, the Soldier’s peers, their chain of command and the unit’s responsibility to ensure they are promoting Soldiers who are prepared for the next higher grade, not because of completion of a school.

The Soldier’s unit (and the Army) ultimately has to live with the consequences of a Soldier being promoted – sending them to a school and then absolving themselves of responsibility for that Soldier’s poor performance if they turn out to be a dud is a failure of the unit and the chain of command. NCO professional development (or Warrant Officer/Regular Officer) schools should not be viewed as magical “wave a wand and poof – instant success for promotion" schools. They are not. They should be viewed as tools and as a basic standardized “test” (because we need something to evaluate knowledge and basic leadership skills). Think about it – How many NCO’s do you know who have attended every school out there but couldn’t lead a squad out of a wet paper bag? Again, same for Warrant Officers and Officers. I will also sadly note as an example: The Warrant Officer Corps has been polluted with many inept Warrant Officers because of the reliance of passing a school as opposed to units and the chain of command ensuring the Soldier is truly PREPARED and QUALIFIED to become a Warrant Officer. I’ve been in for 37 years and I’ve seen this (reliance on schools alone) happen way too much. Paper Soldiers do not necessarily equate to good Soldiers. End rant.

1LT Rosa, to more basically answer your question, yes, I believe Soldiers should attend a required RESIDENT professional development school prior to being promoted to the next level and I think we should do away with most of this PD online training we all have to do these days. Units must properly prepare Soldiers for promotion from within and attendance at the resident course becomes the "check the box" element. Regardless, the Soldier is fully prepared for promotion BEFORE attending the resident course.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 12:49 AM

2015-10-07T00:49:26-04:00

This is the reason we will select, train, educate and promote the NCO's.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Oct 7 at 2015 3:14 AM

2015-10-07T03:14:50-04:00

To be plain & simple about it, this was a short cut CPT Private RallyPoint Member, to do away with the requirement. I am pleased the requirement has returned and would like to see the SQT/SDT return as well. The SSD's are fine and dandy but they are often an exercise in using "CRTL F". A lack of challenges makes Johnny a Lazy Boy.

Response by SGT James Allen made Oct 7 at 2015 5:16 AM

2015-10-07T05:16:07-04:00

I believe they should have to go through each NCOES to make the next rank. I went through PLDC and BNCOC(19Kilo). I was pretty knowledgeable already of what to expect thanks to my Sergeants in my Unit. But, there were some little things those schools helped me perfect as a leader and Tank Commander. That is why they should have to attend them before earning their stripes.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 7 at 2015 6:48 AM

2015-10-07T06:48:38-04:00

Absolutely, yes. It seems like, at some point, the expectation of NCO's changed from "a leader, and expert in their field" to just "a leader, and we'll leave the technical stuff to Warrants". We should never have stopped verifying technical excellence when it comes to NCO promotions. I think the Army as a whole forgets about Critical Task Lists by MOS, and the inherent expectation that, at each level, you should have already mastered all previous levels, and are mastering your current. We desperately need to get back to that....

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 6:55 AM

2015-10-07T06:55:51-04:00

I don't think it has been feasible. The NCOES was not built to sustain the number of slots needed for this to happen. It's more apparent at the ALC/SLC level. Too many fast tracking, high speed NCOs would be sitting around waiting for a slot. In the meantime, they are last in the pecking order behind those already promoted that need the school still and those with more TIG.

If the Army could handle it from a logistical/personnel stand point then I think it's a must. It will result in better prepared, better trained NCOs. But I fear that with the way things are currently it would hold back the high achievers.

Response by SSG David McPherson made Oct 7 at 2015 7:33 AM

2015-10-07T07:33:12-04:00

Yes

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 7:38 AM

2015-10-07T07:38:59-04:00

It was necessary at the time. The ugly truth is that if that requirement hadn't been changed, the Soldiers doing back to back deployments wouldn't have gotten promoted. It was the same reason deployment time was added to the promotion point system years ago and is being removed again.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Oct 7 at 2015 8:41 AM

2015-10-07T08:41:57-04:00

I have no issues with NCOES being required, if anything it ensures NCOs are competitive with their peers before they are promoted. What as I see as an issue, is commands not supporting their soldiers attending these schools. I believe there was an article in the ArmyTimes saying the same thing a week or two ago (can't find it right now). This may be more of a problem in Joint Commands, where the other services don't understand Army requirements, but if that's the case we need to stop assigning junior NCOs to these commands.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-10-07T09:15:43-04:00

I was attending these NCOES courses during this time of transition. I can tell you that as a Soldier I was taking them less seriously than I was taking the SSD courses. It didn't have much to do with the curriculum, but with the Cadre. They lost their credibility with me, and a majority of my classmates, almost instantly because they clearly did not know the curriculum they were teaching. These SGLs didn't care about what they were doing there, and it was abundantly clear to the student body that they were Cadre because they were non-deployable, or they were "swept under the rug" by their branches to get them out of a position where they could get people hurt. Combine this with the need for growth from within of the NCO corps, where promotions came fast, faster than NCOES could handle. NCOES could not keep up with the needs of the Army, especially with any desirable NCO leadership being pulled to deploying units. Effectively putting us in our current predicament with jaded NCOs who do not respect the NCOES system because of our own experience.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Oct 7 at 2015 9:26 AM

2015-10-07T09:26:11-04:00

YEs taking the resident course away was a bad thing. There are things that you learn in school with an instructor that a BOOK can't teach. If that was the case why don't they let fresh LT's straight outta college run things. There is a reason they are mentored first!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-10-07T09:27:38-04:00

Absolutely! I went through the old way, as you did. We learned about the NCO Corps and honed our leadership skills. I think young NCOs will be missing out on a great experience.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Oct 7 at 2015 9:35 AM

2015-10-07T09:35:30-04:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member great subject I think it is required. When I came in I took the SQT and PLDC was mandatory 30 days. Even before that you had School of Standard if you were required to go. It was about hands on and not so much automated as it is nowadays for the next rank. I was under the 1000 point system, in my opinion should come back, with the SQT. Schools should be longer and more MOS specific for current operations.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 10:27 PM

2015-10-07T22:27:45-04:00

I think it did have an affect, but I also think the new STEP program (effective 1 October, 2015) is a step in the right direction (pardon the pun). It takes it back to the PLDC roots, where the pin-on is contingent to the school, and not the other way around.

I'm happy to be heading to SLC in about two weeks. Gone are the days of, "wait until you pin on SFC first."

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 10:30 PM

2015-10-07T22:30:07-04:00

I am glad we are going back to it

Response by SGT Mike Mangual made Oct 11 at 2015 1:57 PM

2015-10-11T13:57:23-04:00

Not sure what the standard is today, but in my day it was essential, however the answer in my book is they need to go back to no school no strips Be Know Do

Response by SFC Don Ward made Oct 11 at 2015 10:11 PM

2015-10-11T22:11:29-04:00

Just google the answers, from what I'm told.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Oct 12 at 2015 11:13 AM

2015-10-12T11:13:22-04:00

I came through the PLDC system, they trained you to lead. You had to know the basis of leadership and gave you the tools, physically and mentally to lead a squad. This course wasn't a bye, you earned graduation. If you couldn't hack it, you got sent back to your unit. It was a much better way to develop an NCO

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2015 9:52 PM

2015-10-12T21:52:20-04:00

The requirement was still there, all that changed was when it was met. But the Army is going back to the school before the promotion. It's my understanding the new SFC lis requires they attend SLC before they pin. However, I believe the POI for NCOES is in desperate need of an overhaul, as they are are still teaching outdated FMs.

Response by MAJ Jeff Coulter made Oct 13 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-10-13T13:31:37-04:00

As a former NCO, I went to PLDC as a young SPC in 1993. We all took it very seriously because it was a requirement before you could even go to the SGT board. I firmly believe that once these NCOES benchmarks were done away with, the NCO Corps suffered. When you have a young 19 to 20-something Soldier promoted to SGT downrange (we all know what a joke those boards are), he or she only knows combat leadership. While that is obviously important, garrison leadership is different and requires both maturity and institutional knowledge that most junior NCOs simply don't have anymore.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2015 6:16 PM

2015-10-13T18:16:27-04:00

Sir, it was a huge mistake to promote Soldiers without first sending them to the basic leadership course. Thankfully the Army is going back to the old ways and is requiring Soldiers to have the NCOES completed prior to promoting.

Response by SFC Derahn Thornton made Oct 13 at 2015 9:41 PM

2015-10-13T21:41:40-04:00

I became an NCO in '99 at Fort Bragg (1st COSCOM) back when each MACOM had a two-week Junior Leadership Course prior to attending 30 day PLDC and also the 1000 point system. I think that was the greatest thing in the world. JLC was harder so when we got to PLDC, it was a breeze! I'm about to retire after 21 years of service, and I tell you we as an NCO Corps have lost our way from the old days of mentoring and teaching. Everyone wants to make SFC in 7 years yet can't find the motorpool. I came up in a time where if you wanted to make SGT, you told your squad leader you were ready. I also agree with pushing some who are apprehensive yet have the spark, and those who sweat and piss apathy who need to be pushed out!

To be honest I think it was a bad idea to promote before school...it made me hungry to learn and get to the course. These soldiers want entitlement, not hunger!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-10-13T23:26:59-04:00

The Ncoes courses today hardly resemble what they were back during Pldc. SSD courses are a great concept, however the check on learning and principles discussed do not corellate to the comparable rank of the course. The course assumes the responsibilities of the highest levels of joint staff some how are significant to the squad level leader. Going to and from school driven promotion systems has significant impact on national guard and reserve soldiers that aren't afforded the same access to NCOES courses.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 5:34 AM

2015-10-14T05:34:05-04:00

Yes, sir. I believe this has messed up the NCO Corp. It seems as if all anyone care about is making rank so they get paid. They dont care aboyt soldier development, just themselves. You can't get anyone to fo theur job, because they feel like we owe them something. Army can change with the time, but changing time doesn't mean take away discipline. We now have a softer Army, because of this.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-10-14T12:24:02-04:00

I have noticed that so many that are being promoted without looking forward to whether they will ever be able to progress. The tempo of deployments has made it difficult to hold Soldiers back from promotion but if they have a history of height weight or work issues they should be scrutinized. I grew u in the you dont promote until you get the appropriate education I think its the right way to weed out the non performers.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 5:40 PM

2015-10-14T17:40:08-04:00

1LT Eric Rosa, I too attended PLDC as a young Soldier (SPC) this was a requirement to make SGT and believe it was great benefit for aspiring NCOs. During the beginnings of and up to and through the height of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Army was promoting all NCOs without the next step ( or within a year/ or the next highest NCOES only being required). This allowed us to promote deserving NCOs when NCOES was difficult to obtain, but at the same time as with all good ideas we allowed those not quite up to that level yet to join the ranks. I believe the Army is in the infancy of righting those instances and the system will fix itself. However, you as all of us had to endure some growing pains.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 14 at 2015 7:47 PM

2015-10-14T19:47:12-04:00

I disagree. Under this model, developing leaders is a forcing function of the organization, not the institution or the Army. If leaders focused on cultivating their junior NCOs through training and leader development, we wouldn't need an automated SSD. Our NCO Corps can be stronger, but before we point the finger at an institution to develop our junior NCOs, we need to tighten up how training is conducted specifically in their development.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2015 4:11 AM

2015-10-15T04:11:31-04:00

Training an NCO in the schoolhouse was missed. I'm very glad its back. It's tough enough to find one that can conduct business within their MOS much less leading troops. That's my experience between the old school and the new gen

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2015 8:40 AM

2015-10-15T08:40:34-04:00

You are definitely right on target with everything you said. We lost a lot of ground with promoting with attending a school first. Now we have a lot of people wearing stripes that should not be.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 16 at 2015 8:44 AM

2015-10-16T08:44:19-04:00

I agree, PLDC prepared me to be a leader. Taught me how to lead, a squad, platoon and help prepare other Soldiers to be better leaders. We also, had the choice to hold back some that were not ready to lead. Doing computer base leadership courses does not take the place of actually having hands on leading, D&C, inspections, respect for senior leaders. Soldiers now have no respect for leadership they roll there eyes argue about what a mission given and it is not my job mentalality. I never ask a Soldier to do a mission without knowing I could do it myself. Even just standing at parade rest for your NCOs, is showing respect. I may sound old school, but i have been flexible and evolved with the new ARMY Strong, but if the basic rules are not applied then evolving forward has a limited affect.

Response by SSG Steven McDanield made Oct 16 at 2015 11:14 PM

2015-10-16T23:14:39-04:00

I had the same experience. I had to take JEDS for E-4, PLDC before E-5, and then BNCOC, and ANCOC, for E-6 and E-7. I also had plenty of other service schools, College, and APFT, SQT, and SMCT Qualifications to pass, teach, and mentor. all-in-all, a really great hands on NCOES throuout my career. The mentoring aspects were the most critical in my experience, but were really dependant on the NCOs you had mentoring you. Like most of us, we all have stories of really great NCOs and ones that should have turned in thier stripes. As far as the NCOER, I agree with SSG Janell Lord, even in my day, you could go to Clothing and Sales and buy a handbook of bullet points to write an NCOER. I had my fair share of raters that used it instead of writing things for themselves because no one had mentored them and helped develop the skill.

Response by SGT John Kerins made Dec 7 at 2015 5:15 PM

2015-12-07T17:15:44-05:00

I don't think you have to shoot to get a CABa, just be shot at. Same with Medics and CMB.

Response by SSG Jeffrey Harper made Aug 4 at 2018 6:56 AM

2018-08-04T06:56:14-04:00

SFC Joe Davis I totally agree with you. I saw to many times soilders get promoted any don’t understand what it really means. I agree the SQT show come back. The promotion system should change to getting tested on your job knowledge much like the airforces, this would weed out the one just rank chasing and not knowing thier MOS. To many troops are slotted in MOS slot they are not school trained for and it being held against them come promoting recommendation time. But as we know before with changes come complains about how unfair it is they everyone has to be tested about thier knowledge. The Army needs to truly change!!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2019 10:53 AM

2019-01-17T10:53:04-05:00

The required institutional training is fine, my issue is the content of the training does not prepare anyone to be effective at their new jobs.

Response by MSG Brian Wiscott made Sep 9 at 2019 11:40 AM

2019-09-09T11:40:25-04:00

Personally I feel that going to an NCOES was a good thing it got you away from the good old boys, and gave someone not in your chain of command a chance for input about your professionalism and ability to function as an NCOES. Just my opinion.