Us vs. Them

2014-10-23T22:03:47-04:00

I have noticed a trend on RP and in comments to Army Times articles and on other boards: when discussing issues where religion is an issue many people make references which equate Christians with 'us' and Americans and Muslims with 'them' and non-Americans. I am not talking about the general populace, I am talking about Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and Coasties who presumably serve with a diverse group, have sworn to uphold the constitution (including freedom of religion), have aligned personal values with service values, and have had equal opportunity and diversity training. Most of them had to have served alongside people of all major religious groups, and may still do so. What do you make of the failure to recognize that many Americans, born and raised in this country and with as much right to 'own' this country as anyone else on the boards, are Muslim? When people say Muslims should 'go back to where they came from' do you think they realize that for many that would be Detroit or Chicago or another American city?

Response by PO3 Shaun Taylor made Oct 24 at 2014 2:50 AM

2014-10-24T02:50:08-04:00

SGM Robin Johnson Unfortunately, no matter how much you train a person that doesn't guarantee that they will learn.

Response by COL Sam Russell made Oct 24 at 2014 6:52 AM

2014-10-24T06:52:53-04:00

Well put SGM.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 24 at 2014 7:06 AM

2014-10-24T07:06:12-04:00

I believe the "US" refers to the known social norms and "THEM" refers to unknowns and changes. IMHO, people in general fear change, I know I do. Changing the norms is huge for a lot of people and the rate at which the norms are changing seems to be getting faster. Some groups are demanding instant gratification, allow anyone into the country, forgive all the illegal immigrants, etc., while we can't take care of larger looming issues that affect more people like the VA for instance. Everyone who is a US citizen does have a right to be a stakeholder in this country but newcomers need to curb the sense of instant entitlement, again, IMHO.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Oct 24 at 2014 7:21 AM

2014-10-24T07:21:50-04:00

Other reasons why us vs. them is still an issue. Why are all these recent attacks being committed by US and now Canadian citizens that have converted to Islam? Why are the traitors leaving this continent to go to the middle east converting to Islam first and not going as Christians in order to join the "I Hate America" clubs? Why are the non-extremist Muslims doing little to nothing to disassociate themselves from the radical groups? Things like this IMHO keep people at bay and widen the gap.

Response by Sgt Jon Johnson made Oct 24 at 2014 8:44 AM

2014-10-24T08:44:28-04:00

SGM Johnson,
I believe this issue has roots farther back then the current issues with the war on terror. If we look back in history the "Democrats vs. Republicans" (you can decide the us and them) to "Grunts vs. Admin desk jockeys". I'm sure many conflicts/arguments will fit the bill for "us vs. them". In most case a lack of knowledge is what leads to "us vs. them" thinking.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Oct 24 at 2014 9:08 AM

2014-10-24T09:08:46-04:00

SGM Johnson as long as there is life on this earth man will never be satisfied how things is going, if it isn't religion, race, gender, rich, middle class, or poor. It will always be something to complain about, it is that selfish spirit in mankind.

Response by PO2 Rocky Kleeger made Oct 24 at 2014 2:51 PM

2014-10-24T14:51:44-04:00

This is a very deep subject for this particular rabbit hole. Here's how I feel, personally. When I say us against them, it is for the radical part of ANY religion. Be it, Islam radicals (ISIS), or even Christian/Catholic radicals (Westboro Baptist Church). I could go on with LSD, Lutherans, and even Jews. All religious sects have radicals and those are who I oppose, both while on Active Duty and as a retired Veteran. These are the people that are dangerous, in my mind.

Now, I can't speak for the "them" that you mentioned, I can only speak for myself.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 3:52 PM

2014-10-24T15:52:23-04:00

SGM Robin Johnson - there are a significant number of people in this country (and in the military, in my experience) who equate "American" with being a Christian of European (often Northwestern or Western European) descent. Others "don't look like Americans," regardless of whether their ancestors have been in this country for hundreds (or even thousands) of years. Add to this "strange religions" (be they Islam, Hinduism, or Santeria) practiced by "non-American looking" people and you have a recipe for a revival of nativism.

As others have remarked (SGT Rick Nyberg and SPC Theresa Martinelli), there are violent extremists in many (if not almost all) religions. It is easier to label the whole religion as "alien" if we already have identified them as "them" or unAmerican.

There are Muslim organizations in many parts of the US speaking out against the violent acts of those claiming to speak for Islam, but those actions often don't make news. There are Muslims serving honorably in our military - another point often overlooked. Much of what we know about the people leaving this country to join the DAESHi thugs, AQ, and the like comes from American Muslims, but this is rarely made clear.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 24 at 2014 5:18 PM

2014-10-24T17:18:26-04:00

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is the actions that define a person, not their religion. I hope to live to 100 so I can make amends for all the wrong I have done during my lifetime. That being said, sleep well knowing that the thought of killing anyone who has a different point of view will NEVER enter my mind. The words radical, Muslim, and terrorism find themselves in the very same sentence, again and again and again. The ACT is the enemy. The perpetrator of the act is the enemy. The demographics of the enemy is a casualty of war. When Great Britain reports that over 500 people leave their country to wage war on behalf of ISIS, It is a perfectly viable question to ask "Why don't they just stay in the country that they return to." When a blanket statement of "all Muslims need to go back where they came from" that is absurd.

Response by SGT Suraj Dave made Oct 24 at 2014 7:46 PM

2014-10-24T19:46:35-04:00

Here is the fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam. Ofcourse aside from the fact the Koran is poetic and based upon Muhammed, and the fact that bible is based on Jesus, both of them follow the same creation story in the beginning. It splits when Abraham has his 2 son's Isaac and Ishmael. Jews and Christians find their lineage with Isaac, as Muslims do with Hagar and Ishmael....

Now here is the next question, why do most terrorists tend to be Muslim? Well would you be surprised if I told you there were Christian and Bhuddists terrorists? There are, they exist, but not within the same league as Islamic Terrorism. If you ever read the Koran, Muhammad was a military leader who for the most part conquered the Arabian Peninsula. If you ever read the bible, Jesus went around healing people in the middle east. Christians are less susceptible to being sucked in by extremists because the central person of Christianity is Jesus, and he didnt go around killing people in any interpretation of the bible. Muslim's are more susceptible to being fooled into these organizations because their central religious figure (Muhammad) went around killing people who didnt believe in the same thing he did, and that by joining they are following in his foot steps.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 9:27 PM

2014-10-24T21:27:13-04:00

The first thing people as a whole, not in the military, not civilians, need to realize is that there is no "them". It is all "us" as people. Religion is an artificial discriminant, color is an artificial discriminant, home country is an artificial discriminant, down at the most basic level a human is a human. This is not an easy thing to do at all! As an atheist married to a Muslim, who has a fairly devout family, it is hard not to disdain and dismiss beliefs that you do not share and may even feel are ridiculous. It is giving the basic respect that all people should give one another that allows this. Until that is universal, there will continue to be issues with radicalism for all religions (ISIS, Westboro, Militant Atheists, etc...)!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 11:27 PM

2014-10-24T23:27:43-04:00

The only us and them I see are those that wish to destroy our way of life. And I mean we/us as Americans as a whole. As others have stated there are radicals in all religions. The allegiance of Americans regardless of race, sex or religious beliefs should be for America. If you chose to become an enemy of the state within our borders or chose to outside our borders you cease to be American regardless of race, sex or religion. If you are a American then nobody needs to go back to where they came from unless you might be illegal or on a expired visa.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 31 at 2014 3:22 PM

2014-10-31T15:22:49-04:00

For a brief moment, I thought this could be about a Pink Floyd song... but then, yeah.

SGM Robin Johnson what a lot, and I mean large majority, don't know is that while one form of Christianity or another is the most popular religion in all the states of the union, Islam is the second most popular in nearly half of them. People are indeed unaware.

Response by LCpl Steve Wininger made Oct 31 at 2014 6:10 PM

2014-10-31T18:10:11-04:00

SGM Robin Johnson We just had this similar discussion in my Arabic class this morning. The consensus of the class and instructor, who is Egyptian, is the media and government is playing a huge part in giving Muslims a bad name.

This is my first year of attending classes full time on campus. because my career goal is to be a Middle Eastern correspondent, I have made it my mission to talk and get to know Muslims. One thing I have noticed is that what we hear in the media and what actually is, may not be so.

I have learned to put away all preconceived notions of anyone that is different than me and try to get to know the person. It is an enlightening experience. I think if we can get beyond the prejudices, we may find that person could be your best ally and friend.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 5:04 PM

2015-01-20T17:04:01-05:00

SGM Robin Johnson Well said....these service members should realize that the "US" crowd came from somewhere too, not the U.S., so to make the statement about going back towards "Them" is kind of hyprocritical too.

Response by LCpl Mark Lefler made Jan 20 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-01-20T17:08:36-05:00

Many people do not read history, at one point Catholics were told to go back to Ireland. Its disappointing how so many people see all Muslims as radicals but seem to forget the inquisitions and the crusades. "Religious freedom" seems to have turned into "if its not christian, it shouldn't exist, cause as a christian i'm offended.". The idea that all people are created equal has really fallen away in practice.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 20 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-01-20T17:18:01-05:00

I have no issue with any faiths but like others alluded I do not tolerate extremist of any faith. I have had several arguments with people grouping all Muslims with the fanatics and guess what I begin to lose respect for you when that occurs. The golden rule is treat others how you want to be treated.

Response by SPC Justin Cannon made Jan 20 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-01-20T18:24:05-05:00

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 20 at 2015 7:00 PM

2015-01-20T19:00:32-05:00

Sadly I have I heard those comments many times in my Army career. Therefore, I ll ask the following questions. Maybe someone can intelligently shed some light on them. Do you all know that on average between 2006 and 2012 AlQaida and it's afliate groups killed 38 Muslim to 1 none Muslim. Now What country should Muslims or an fact anyone borne in America go to? How should a Muslim disassociate himself/herself from the terrorist acts or criminal acts (speaking for self) of another? I think the best answer is that we all are American and anyone who violate the law of land be treated like we treat any criminal. Enough of us vs them none sense. When we group people by their religion or ethnic background we are likely empowering and renergyzing the monster we are trying to defeat.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2015 11:18 PM

2015-03-08T23:18:47-04:00

Good subject. This can be a dangerous thought process. It seems okay until a characteristic that defines you gets you lumped into the them.

Response by SGT Francis Wright made Mar 8 at 2015 11:24 PM

2015-03-08T23:24:02-04:00

SGM,
It is not the generalization of Muslims. But the actions of a few misguided souls. I look at it this way; "I will respect you as long as you respect me". But if someone comes to me to kill me. Then all bets are off. But they have to make the first move, welcome to the 21st century.